Prewrath?

[JM]

Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,

jm

 

[Dan the deacon]

Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,

jm

Why, are you one?

 

[mark kennedy]

Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,

jm

yes, and I tend to be post trib. as a result.

 

[JM]

I'm interested in reading about how one picked the Prewrath position in a market place of eschatologies. What was the deciding factor in you choosing the Prewrath position?

Thanks.

 

[BABerean2]

I'm interested in reading about how one picked the Prewrath position in a market place of eschatologies. What was the deciding factor in you choosing the Prewrath position?

Thanks.

I was Prewrath at one point, because I could not get the Pretrib view to agree with scripture.

Most Prewrath people believe the tribulation period is 7 years long.

I would not agree with the 7 year tribulation, since we have "the time of the judgment of the dead" at Revelation 11:18, and the 70th week of Daniel occurred during the first century.

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[iamlamad]

I'm interested in reading about how one picked the Prewrath position in a market place of eschatologies. What was the deciding factor in you choosing the Prewrath position?

Thanks.

I guess you have not read Rosenthal's book and Van Kampen's book - the two guys that started prewrath thought.

Their biggest mistake, and what took them off the truth on a tangent was that did not recogize that the signs in the sun and moon are different and will be seen TWICE: once as a sign for the DAY and then again as a sign for His coming (Rev. 19).

These two signs are different: in one the moon is blood red, meaning it is SEEN. When both the sun and moon are darkened, it is DARKNESS, and the moon will not be seen at all.

Their thought (Mistaken) was that the sign (they only saw one) must be AFTER the days of GT, but BEFORE the Day of the Lord. To make it fit, they had to rearrange MOST of the book of Revelation.

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm interested in reading about how one picked the Prewrath position in a market place of eschatologies. What was the deciding factor in you choosing the Prewrath position?

Thanks.

I'm not sure what your fishing for bur I base my version og prewrath on an exposition of Revelations. I've never been comfortable with a pretib. rapture. A strict posttrib rapture makes little sense to me and let me clarify, I base this strictly on my understanding of the text. It appears to happen shortly before the vials of wrath.

It's not something Ibregard as essential doctrine so I see no reason to be argumentative or contentious over. For me its an expositional challenge and my central issue is the repentance of Israel since I'm convinced Israel and the church are raised together, the key question is when.

 

[Berean Tim]

Why, are you one?

I'm PreWrath. It seems to be a straight forward reading of scripture. I see Matthew 24 29 to 31 as the rapture after the tribulation of those days. We will see the rise of the antichrist

 

[Douggg]

I'm interested in reading about how one picked the Prewrath position in a market place of eschatologies. What was the deciding factor in you choosing the Prewrath position?

Thanks.

Prewrath rapture position is that the rapture must take place before the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) are poured out in the second half of the 7 years. But it assumes that Christians will enter the seven years, and see the times of the beast - as I understand it.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,

jm

I am absolutely pre wrath. We see a great multitude in Rev 7 that is there right before the trumpets of Gods wrath. We are told in 1 Thes 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day (the day of the Lord) should overtake you as a thief. We are also told when you see these things begin to come to pass to look up, your redemption draws nigh. We can also tell who is being raptured based on the first fruits of the harvest. The first fruits of the harvest are 12,000 from each tribe so we know that the harvest is the twelve tribes that have been scattered across the earth. This leaves the remnant.......those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up to go through the wrath of God.

We also know this:
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who are those gathered from heaven?

Well we know this:
Matt 24
43 But know this, that if the GOODMAN of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So how is it possible that Jesus gives us all the signs of His coming, let's us know that we are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief, tells us to look up when you see these things begin to come to pass and yet tell us we will not know when he is coming.

The church will be raptured pre trib and escape all the things that will come to pass. Be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[Berean Tim]

Prewrath rapture position is that the rapture must take place before the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) are poured out in the second half of the 7 years. But it assumes that Christians will enter the seven years, and see the times of the beast - as I understand it.

PreWrath position is the Rapture takes place before the Trumpet judgements not the vial judgements. The wrath of God starts after the events of the sixth seal as scripture plainly states. There are some different views in the PreWrath camp before most hold to these

 

[Douggg]

PreWrath position is the Rapture takes place before the Trumpet judgements not the vial judgements. The wrath of God starts after the events of the sixth seal as scripture plainly states. There are some different views in the PreWrath camp before most hold to these

Tim, the sixth seal events are near the very end of the 7years and is the wrath of Lamb. The parting of the cosmos corresponds to Matthew 24:29-30.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Berean Tim]

Tim, the sixth seal events are near the very end of the 7years and is the wrath of Lamb. The parting of the cosmos corresponds to Matthew 24:29-30.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I mostly agree. The Sixth seal and Matt 24:29 to 31 are the same. Jesus doesn't discuss the Trumpet or Vial judgements in Matthew for we have been raptured. For me to accept the seals are the wrath of God or the Lamb would be to accept the 5th seal martyrs died by the wrath of God. I just can't get there. I appreciate your opinion

 

[iamlamad]

I am absolutely pre wrath. We see a great multitude in Rev 7 that is there right before the trumpets of Gods wrath. We are told in 1 Thes 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day (the day of the Lord) should overtake you as a thief. We are also told when you see these things begin to come to pass to look up, your redemption draws nigh. We can also tell who is being raptured based on the first fruits of the harvest. The first fruits of the harvest are 12,000 from each tribe so we know that the harvest is the twelve tribes that have been scattered across the earth. This leaves the remnant.......those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up to go through the wrath of God.

We also know this:
Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who are those gathered from heaven?

Well we know this:
Matt 24
43 But know this, that if the GOODMAN of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So how is it possible that Jesus gives us all the signs of His coming, let's us know that we are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief, tells us to look up when you see these things begin to come to pass and yet tell us we will not know when he is coming.

The church will be raptured pre trib and escape all the things that will come to pass. Be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The truth is, HE will come FOR His saints prewrath AND pretrib.

 

[Douggg]

I mostly agree. The Sixth seal and Matt 24:29 to 31 are the same. Jesus doesn't discuss the Trumpet or Vial judgements in Matthew for we have been raptured. For me to accept the seals are the wrath of God or the Lamb would be to accept the 5th seal martyrs died by the wrath of God. I just can't get there. I appreciate your opinion

The ones in the 5th seal are persons who became Christians after the rapture and will have been martyred by the beast and company. Not by God.

The first mention of the wrath of God (in textual words) on the 7 year timeline is in Revelation 16, not the seals, but in the vials.

Revelation 16:
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
___________________________________________________________________

The trumpets are before the vials, and are judgments coming from God - but are not called the wrath of God in the text.

___________________________________________________________________

The flaw , imo, by the prewrath view is that God not appointing us to wrath (to take place during the Day of the Lord beginning years in 1Thessalonians5) - applies only to God's wrath. But they omit also not to Satan's wrath, which takes place when Satan is cast down to earth with a time times half times left.

Which them martyred in the 5th seal are in large part by Satan's wrath acted out through the beast and company.

_____________________________________________________________________
Tim, let's take another look at prewrath - separate from the flaw I see in the classic prewrath view.

In 1Thesslaonians5, we are not appointed unto wrath that comes when the Day of the Lord years begin.

If the world is supposed to be saying peace and safety at that time - it should be in the early part of the 7 years. But sometime in the middle part (not the exact middle day) of that 7 years, the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. That shatters the peace and safety illusion - and triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord - which the wrath of God is poured out.

So in that version of "prewrath", the rapture would be pre (before) the act of the Antichrist claiming to be God act (which in turn, the rapture, thus would be pre-Day of the Lord, containing the wrath of God).

Would that be something you could accept as a revised version of "prewrath"?

 

[Choose Wisely]

The truth is, HE will come FOR His saints prewrath AND pretrib.

Exactly. The pre trib rapture of the church will happen when it is like the days of Noah. They were eating and drinking until the day Noah entered the ark. And yet Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Then the seals are opened and the tribulation and the time of testing begin. There will be wars and famines and pestilence etc that the wise virgins will escape as they will be ready when the bridegroom comes. They will escape ALL THESE THINGS.

When the tribulation begins God turns his attention to his ELECT...the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. These saints will be raptured after the tribulation....right before the wrath of God begins. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

 

[BABerean2]

Exactly. The pre trib rapture of the church will happen when it is like the days of Noah. They were eating and drinking until the day Noah entered the ark. And yet Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Then the seals are opened and the tribulation and the time of testing begin. There will be wars and famines and pestilence etc that the wise virgins will escape as they will be ready when the bridegroom comes. They will escape ALL THESE THINGS.

When the tribulation begins God turns his attention to his ELECT...the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. These saints will be raptured after the tribulation....right before the wrath of God begins. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the Church Age cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

(However, I would like to thank you for being nice during the last few days.)

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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[Douggg]

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the Church Age cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Jesus comes from heaven with his bride at His Second Coming. So the church has left the world aforehand... before the Day of the Lord begins, in 1Thessalonians5 at a time the world is saying peace and safety.

CW is thinking pre-trib, i.e. pre-70th week. I am thinking that is possible, but it may be that the resurrection/rapture may not take place until right up to the act in 2Thessalonians2:4. But it has to take place before the Day of the Lord begins - anytime between now and then.

A revised version of the prewrath rapture would fit as well as I suggested in my post #15 to Tim in this thread.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the Church Age cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

(However, I would like to thank you for being nice during the last few days.)

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

.

You are correct that the new covenant is everlasting and have provided a scripture to support this. Good job. Somehow I think you are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Do you think that you could find a scripture that shows that the Church age cannot end before the second coming? I have tried to come up with one but I am unable to support your opinion.

 

[Douggg]

You are correct that the new covenant is everlasting and have provided a scripture to support this. Good job. Somehow I think you are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Do you think that you could find a scripture that shows that the Church age cannot end before the second coming? I have tried to come up with one but I am unable to support your opinion.

The church age ends when the bridegroom comes for the bride in the resurrection/rapture.