Prevenient Grace

[A_Thinker]

The context of that was not each and every person who ever lived. The context means men from every nation. If it was the former, then all would be saved because in John 6 He says that all who are drawn will come to Him.

John 6 doesn't say that all who are drawn by God will come to Christ, but rather, ... all who come are drawn by God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Hammster]

John 6 doesn't say that all who are drawn by God will come to Christ, but rather, ... all who come are drawn by God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And what happens to those who are drawn?

 

[A_Thinker]

Those who are called are also justified. What do you do with that verse?

Assuming you are speaking of Romans 8, the passage you speak of starts out by acknowledging God's foreknowledge, leading to predestination of the elect, leading to a call to the elect, leading to justification of the elect, ... and so on ...

Romans 8

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The passage does not refer to the non-elect in any way ... as to whether they are called ... or not.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6 doesn't say that all who are drawn by God will come to Christ, but rather, ... all who come are drawn by God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Your out of the context of eternal salvation for Christ's sheep in that whole section of John 6 when you say that. The sheep of Christ are given to Him by the Father.
'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me'

If you have not been given to Christ before your saved, YOU WILL NEVER BE ONE OF THE SAVED.
All those drawn Christ resurrects in the age of the resurrection.

Luke 20:34-36New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[sdowney717]

An interesting thought that ties together several resurrection verses. Christ raises believers incorruptible, but who raises the wicked dead, something I have not though on yet.

1 Corinthians 15 is all about the church, not the world. And the verses on the resurrection of the dead partly prove that.

It begins with Paul describing the gospel by which you stand, that Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures, that He rose again from the dead.

And here we read the dead will be raised incorruptible. This refers back to John 6 about Christ raising us believers on the last day, and Luke 20 of those worthy who attain the resurrection from the dead. This is not for the wicked dead, but for the righteous dead justified in Christ by God are to be raised incorruptible. Yet the wicked will also be raised but not incorruptible, and not raised by Christ but by God the Father at the great white throne judgement in Revelations.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The Revelation verse of the dead raised.
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

[Hammster]

Assuming you are speaking of Romans 8, the passage you speak of starts out by acknowledging God's foreknowledge, leading to predestination of the elect, leading to a call to the elect, leading to justification of the elect, ... and so on ...

Romans 8

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The passage does not refer to the non-elect in any way ... as to whether they are called ... or not.

It does refer to the elect though. The ones who are called.

 

[A_Thinker]

And what happens to those who are drawn?

Some who are drawn come to Christ, ... others ... harden their hearts and resist that drawing.

So, the Spirit encourages us, that when we hear His voice, ... that we not harden our hearts. Heberews 3:7-8

Hebrews 3

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

8 do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,

during the time of testing in the wilderness,


If it were not possible that we could harden our hearts and resist God's call, ... why the warning from the Spirit not to ?

 

[Hammster]

Some who are drawn come to Christ, ... others ... harden their hearts and resist that drawing.

So, the Spirit encourages us, that when we hear His voice, ... that we not harden our hearts. Heberews 3:7-8

Hebrews 3

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,

8 do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,

during the time of testing in the wilderness,


If it were not possible that we could harden our hearts and resist God's call, ... why the warning from the Spirit not to ?

Nothing about that in John 6.

 

[A_Thinker]

It does refer to the elect though. The ones who are called.

The passage says that the elect are called.

It does not say that all who are called ... are a part of the elect.

Jesus said that His call/drawing will go out to ALL men ... and that MANY are CALLED, ... while FEW are CHOSEN.

Scripture says that God is impartial, ... not a respecter of persons, ... delivering His blessings upon the good and the evil ...

Matthew 5

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[Hammster]

The passage says that the elect are called.

It does not say that all who are called ... are a part of the elect.

And Jesus said that His call/drawing will go out to ALL men ... and that MANY are CALLED, ... while FEW are CHOSEN.

Scripture says that God is impartial, ... not a respecter of persons, ... delivering His blessings upon the good and the evil ...

Matthew 5

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

It does say that all who are called are justified.

 

[A_Thinker]

Nothing about that in John 6.

Nothing in John 6 counters this interpretation, while John 3 and Hebrews 3 support it ...

 

[A_Thinker]

It does say that all who are called are justified.

Romans 6 doesn't say that ALL who are called ... are justified.

Romans 6 says that the elect, ... as defined previously in the phase as being foreknown ... and thus predestined, ... are called and justified.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing in John 6 counters this interpretation, while John 3 and Hebrews 3 support it ...

So it's an argument from silence? John 6 is specific, but because there's something else that, when used out of context, counters it, and so John 6 is nullified?

That's not how it works.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 6 doesn't say that ALL who are called ... are justified.

Romans 6 says that the elect, ... as defined previously in the phase as being foreknown ... and thus predestined, ... are called and justified.

So then you're saying that we can conclude there are two types of calling? One for the predestined which is efficacious, and one for others which is not?

 

[A_Thinker]

So it's an argument from silence? John 6 is specific, but because there's something else that, when used out of context, counters it, and so John 6 is nullified?

That's not how it works.

I used neither John 3 nor Hebrews 3 out of context.

Both speak of God's bestowal of salvation upon mankind ...

More of Hebrews 3 ...

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[A_Thinker]

So then you're saying that we can conclude there are two types of calling? One for the predestined which is efficacious, and one for others which is not?

There is one message, one gospel, ... one CALL ...

And as Jesus illustrated in His parable of the rich man's invitations to his banquet (Matthew 22:2-10), ... it is only those who respond favorably to the extension CALL/INVITATION, ... who are, ultimately, CHOSEN ...

"For MANY are CALLED, ... but FEW are CHOSEN ... " Matthew 22:14

 

[Hammster]

I used neither John 3 nor Hebrews 3 out of context.

Both speak of God's bestowal of salvation upon mankind ...

More of Hebrews 3 ...

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

John 6 talks about that and in context. But it seems that some will not talk about that, but will cherry pick verses from others books to make a counter argument.

 

[Hammster]

There is one message, one gospel, ... one CALL ...

And as Jesus illustrated in His parable of the rich man's invitations to his banquet (Matthew 22:2-10), ... it is only those who respond favorably to the extension CALL/INVITATION, ... who are, ultimately, CHOSEN ...

"For MANY are CALLED, ... but FEW are CHOSEN ... " Matthew 22:14

Romans 8 says that those He predestined He also called, and those he called He also justified.

There would be no point in Paul writing it like this if he thought that all were called in the same manner. In fact, it would just confuse things.

 

[Hammster]

For MANY are CALLED, ... but FEW are CHOSEN ... " Matthew 22:14

Notice that it doesn't say that many are called, but few respond to the call. You can't come to that conclusion, regardless of how many words you capitalize.

 

[A_Thinker]

Romans 8 says that those He predestined He also called, and those he called He also justified.

There would be no point in Paul writing it like this if he thought that all were called in the same manner. In fact, it would just confuse things.

I don't find Paul's writing (here) to be confusing.

He is speaking of the elect, ... and says that they are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

It only becomes confusing when one has cause to understand that Paul is saying that these descriptions are UNIQUE to the elect.

But we know that they are not (ALL) UNIQUE to the elect, ... because the non-elect are also foreknown and predestined ...