Prevenient Grace

[HatGuy]

I don't see any distinction between the two terms you are using. Born of = born by. We are impregnated, if you will, by God's Spirit, though His Word.

God's word cannot be separated from His Spirit. They come to us together. Regeneration = born again.

Jesus spoke to a dead man, Lazarus, and Lazarus was instantly made alive. This is a picture of how the spiritual reality works.

Okay, I agree that God's Word cannot be separated from the Spirit and find that an amazing part of the gospel and God's way of working. We are agreed there. God's Word brings salvation.

I simply say that God's Word can be rejected, you say it is irresistible.

But can't you see the other problem with what you are saying?

You are saying that the Spirit basically indwells a sinner before they come to faith. It brings them to life first and then they come to faith. But that contradicts the scriptures, like I posted, that clearly say it happens after they come to faith. You believe in Christ, then you receive the Spirit. I've never found any scripture that says you are indwelt by the Spirit and then believe. Can you find one?

 

[DeaconDean]

Okay, I agree that God's Word cannot be separated from the Spirit and find that an amazing part of the gospel and God's way of working. We are agreed there. God's Word brings salvation.

I simply say that God's Word can be rejected, you say it is irresistible.

But can't you see the other problem with what you are saying?

You are saying that the Spirit basically indwells a sinner before they come to faith. It brings them to life first and then they come to faith. But that contradicts the scriptures, like I posted, that clearly say it happens after they come to faith. You believe in Christ, then you receive the Spirit. I've never found any scripture that says you are indwelt by the Spirit and then believe. Can you find one?

Charles Hodge says:

"It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

The duty of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, then to regenerate them and lead them to faith and repentance.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic1.pdf

Hodge goes further to say:

"Regeneration an Act of God.

Regeneration is an act of God. It is not simply referred to Him as its giver, and, in that sense, its author, as He is the giver of faith and of repentance. It is not an act which, by argument and persuasion, or by moral power, He induces the sinner to perform. But it is an act of which He is the agent. It is God who regenerates. The soul is regenerated. In this sense the soul is passive in regeneration, which (subjectively considered) is a change wrought in us, and not an act performed by us."

Regeneration an Act of Gods Power.

Regeneration is not only an act of God, but also an act of his almighty power. Agreeably to the express declarations of the Scriptures, it is so presented in the Symbols of the Protestant churches. If an act of omnipotence, it is certainly efficacious, for nothing can resist almighty power...The assertion that regeneration is an act of Gods omnipotence, is, and is intended to be, a denial that it is an act of moral suasion. It is an affirmation that it is physical in the old sense of that word, as opposed to moral; and that it is immediate, as
opposed to mediate, or through or by the truth."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XV, Regeneration,
Regeneration an Act of God., Section 1.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

Charles Hodge was also "hip" to the doctrine that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came only after regeneration:

"God, or the Spirit of God, testifies to the truth of the Scriptures and of the doctrines which they contain. This testimony, as has been seen, is partly external, consisting in prophecies and miracles, partly in the nature of the truths themselves as related to the intellectual and moral elements of the soul, and partly special and supernatural. Unrenewed men may feel the power of the two former kinds of testimony, and believe with a faith either merely intellectual and speculative, or with what may be called from its ground, a moral faith, which is only temporary. The spiritual form of testimony is confined to the regenerated. It is, of course, inscrutable. The operations of the Spirit do not reveal themselves in the consciousness otherwise than by their effects. We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions. But we know this only from the teaching of the Bible, not because we are conscious of his operations. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (John iii.8.)"

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Section 4, Faith and Knowledge,
What is meant by the Testimony of the Spirit, p. 58.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

He goes further on to show:

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture.

"That this is the Scriptural doctrine on the subject is plain from the express declarations of the Scriptures. Our Lord promised to send the Spirit for this very purpose. He will reprove the world of sin, especially of the sin of not believing in Christ; and of righteousness, that is, of his righteousness, the rightfulness of his claims to be regarded and received as the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, and the Saviour of the world, and of judgment, that is, of the final overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and triumph of the kingdom of light. (John xvi. 8.) Faith, therefore, is

always represented in Scripture as one of the fruits of the Spirit, as the gift of God, as the product of his energy (Colossians ii. 12)."


Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Faith and Knowledge,
Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture., Section 1, p. 59

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

It is very clear from Hodge's Systematic Theology, that the work of the Holy Spirit follows as such:

The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner.

Only after regeneration, faith and repentance has taken place, does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresse the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

We have the Holy Spirit in us already before we confess and repent. He is already dwelling within us. Now wait a minute, hear me out.

God, Jeremiah, and Jesus teach us that out of the heart proceeds everything that defiles us. God said that its thoughts were constantly evil from your youth up. Jeremiah says that it is decietful above all things, who could know it.

With such an evil heart within us, can any outside influence change us? No.

Scriptures say:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -John 16:8-11 (KJV)

The word "reprove" here also means to "convict." And who is the "he" here? Why the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit has to be working from within at the very "heart" of where sin lies. So in a very real sense, the Holy Spirit is already win us. But that is not all either.

One of the very best discourses on how the Holy Spirit works in us in bringing us to the point of salvation is found in Charles Hodge's "Systematic Theology."

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

There is no reason for us to believe that the Holy Spirit would come in us, convict us of our sins, regenerate us, give us faith to believe and lead us to repentance, leave, then only to come back a indwell us after baptism.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[HatGuy]

Charles Hodge says:

"It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

The duty of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, then to regenerate them and lead them to faith and repentance.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic1.pdf

Hodge goes further to say:

"Regeneration an Act of God.

Regeneration is an act of God. It is not simply referred to Him as its giver, and, in that sense, its author, as He is the giver of faith and of repentance. It is not an act which, by argument and persuasion, or by moral power, He induces the sinner to perform. But it is an act of which He is the agent. It is God who regenerates. The soul is regenerated. In this sense the soul is passive in regeneration, which (subjectively considered) is a change wrought in us, and not an act performed by us."

Regeneration an Act of Gods Power.

Regeneration is not only an act of God, but also an act of his almighty power. Agreeably to the express declarations of the Scriptures, it is so presented in the Symbols of the Protestant churches. If an act of omnipotence, it is certainly efficacious, for nothing can resist almighty power...The assertion that regeneration is an act of Gods omnipotence, is, and is intended to be, a denial that it is an act of moral suasion. It is an affirmation that it is physical in the old sense of that word, as opposed to moral; and that it is immediate, as
opposed to mediate, or through or by the truth."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XV, Regeneration,
Regeneration an Act of God., Section 1.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

Charles Hodge was also "hip" to the doctrine that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came only after regeneration:

"God, or the Spirit of God, testifies to the truth of the Scriptures and of the doctrines which they contain. This testimony, as has been seen, is partly external, consisting in prophecies and miracles, partly in the nature of the truths themselves as related to the intellectual and moral elements of the soul, and partly special and supernatural. Unrenewed men may feel the power of the two former kinds of testimony, and believe with a faith either merely intellectual and speculative, or with what may be called from its ground, a moral faith, which is only temporary. The spiritual form of testimony is confined to the regenerated. It is, of course, inscrutable. The operations of the Spirit do not reveal themselves in the consciousness otherwise than by their effects. We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions. But we know this only from the teaching of the Bible, not because we are conscious of his operations. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (John iii.8.)"

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Section 4, Faith and Knowledge,
What is meant by the Testimony of the Spirit, p. 58.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

He goes further on to show:

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture.

"That this is the Scriptural doctrine on the subject is plain from the express declarations of the Scriptures. Our Lord promised to send the Spirit for this very purpose. He will reprove the world of sin, especially of the sin of not believing in Christ; and of righteousness, that is, of his righteousness, the rightfulness of his claims to be regarded and received as the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, and the Saviour of the world, and of judgment, that is, of the final overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and triumph of the kingdom of light. (John xvi. 8.) Faith, therefore, is

always represented in Scripture as one of the fruits of the Spirit, as the gift of God, as the product of his energy (Colossians ii. 12)."


Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Faith and Knowledge,
Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture., Section 1, p. 59

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

It is very clear from Hodge's Systematic Theology, that the work of the Holy Spirit follows as such:

The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner.

Only after regeneration, faith and repentance has taken place, does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresse the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

We have the Holy Spirit in us already before we confess and repent. He is already dwelling within us. Now wait a minute, hear me out.

God, Jeremiah, and Jesus teach us that out of the heart proceeds everything that defiles us. God said that its thoughts were constantly evil from your youth up. Jeremiah says that it is decietful above all things, who could know it.

With such an evil heart within us, can any outside influence change us? No.

Scriptures say:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -John 16:8-11 (KJV)

The word "reprove" here also means to "convict." And who is the "he" here? Why the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit has to be working from within at the very "heart" of where sin lies. So in a very real sense, the Holy Spirit is already win us. But that is not all either.

One of the very best discourses on how the Holy Spirit works in us in bringing us to the point of salvation is found in Charles Hodge's "Systematic Theology."

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

There is no reason for us to believe that the Holy Spirit would come in us, convict us of our sins, regenerate us, give us faith to believe and lead us to repentance, leave, then only to come back a indwell us after baptism.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is excellent, thank you.

Therefore, Calvinist regeneration = Arminian prevenient grace.

"The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner."

I agree with this quote.

So in answer to the question: "in prevenient grace, at the point of the Spirit enabling a person to believe in Christ, is the person in the Spirit or in the flesh?" The answer is, "The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner."

It all comes down to whether this can be resisted or not.

 

[DeaconDean]

Therefore, Calvinist regeneration = Arminian prevenient grace.

Only in the sense that Arminianism in its original form, agreed with Calvinism on total depravity.

However, look at the 5-points of the Remonstrants (Modern Arminianism) and you'll see they moved away from that.

Man, in and of himself, never will make the first move towards God. God always makes the first move. Of this, John Calvin and James Arminus were in complete agreement.

"The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner."

I agree with this quote.

So in answer to the question: "in prevenient grace, at the point of the Spirit enabling a person to believe in Christ, is the person in the Spirit or in the flesh?" The answer is, "The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner."

It all comes down to whether this can be resisted or not.

If you were called, foreknown, predestinated, no, you cannot. (cf. Rom. 8:28-29)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[HatGuy]

Only in the sense that Arminianism in its original form, agreed with Calvinism on total depravity.

However, look at the 5-points of the Remonstrants (Modern Arminianism) and you'll see they moved away from that.

Man, in and of himself, never will make the first move towards God. God always makes the first move. Of this, John Calvin and James Arminus were in complete agreement.



If you were called, foreknown, predestinated, no, you cannot. (cf. Rom. 8:28-29)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yay, someone who knows the differences and distinctions

Yes, I would consider myself a Classical Arminian

 

[DeaconDean]

Yay, someone who knows the differences and distinctions

Yes, I would consider myself a Classical Arminian

Arminianism, as taught by James Arminus, only had a few points different than Calvinism. Namely their individual view on the topic of foreknowledge as it pertained to predestination, and their view on "election".

If it wasn't for that one point alone, I would not have one harsh word to say against him.

But after many years of research, actually reading Arminus' works, studying the Greek, James Arminus got that point wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[HatGuy]

Arminianism, as taught by James Arminus, only had a few points different than Calvinism. Namely their individual view on the topic of foreknowledge as it pertained to predestination, and their view on "election".

If it wasn't for that one point alone, I would not have one harsh word to say against him.

But after many years of research, actually reading Arminus' works, studying the Greek, James Arminus got that point wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks.

Always on the journey. Was pretty much a four-part Calvinist for many years, but recently actually read Arminius and some Classical Arminian works and saw that this was different to the Arminianism I knew. Eventually, it seemed to me to make much more sense from what I knew from the scriptures.

Haven't studied Greek though

 

[DeaconDean]

Thanks.

Always on the journey. Was pretty much a four-part Calvinist for many years, but recently actually read Arminius and some Classical Arminian works and saw that this was different to the Arminianism I knew. Eventually, it seemed to me to make much more sense from what I knew from the scriptures.

Haven't studied Greek though

You know, I was taught in seminary that one must read the opposing side. That way not only do you become well rounded, but also that you would know what the other argument was.

I have read Arminus' works, and I have Calvin's Institutes.

I am a 5-pointer, but I do disagree with him on his position on infant baptism. (Call it the "olde-tyme Baptist" in me)

Believe it or not, if it was for 3 or 4 points in the "39 Articles", I could be an Anglican.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

I agree with you that they aren't.

But you're confusing me about where you stand now. Let me then ask you the same question I was asked earlier to clarify: when a person is regenerated, are they in the flesh or in the Spirit?

They are in the spirit in the manner that they are NOT in the flesh. They still haven't been justified, since one must believe to be justified. And they haven't been sealed by the Spirit yet. Temporally, it's virtually simultaneous.

 

[Hammster]

So in answer to the question: "in prevenient grace, at the point of the Spirit enabling a person to believe in Christ, is the person in the Spirit or in the flesh?" The answer is, "The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner."

It all comes down to whether this can be resisted or not.

Not really. Because if someone is regenerated, they will believe. It's not an ability change, or an enlightenment, it's a heart change.

 

[HatGuy]

Not really. Because if someone is regenerated, they will believe. It's not an ability change, or an enlightenment, it's a heart change.

Sure, this is where we have disagreement. I believe it can be resisted, you don't. I believe it can be resisted due to other factors, such as anthropology. But at least we've cleared up that prevenient grace is not so unbiblical after all - the disagreement comes in whether it can be resisted or not.

 

[HatGuy]

They are in the spirit in the manner that they are in the flesh. They still haven't been justified, since one must believe to be justified. And they haven't been sealed by the Spirit yet. Temporally, it's virtually simultaneous.

Then it's the same for 'prevenient grace'.

 

[Hammster]

Then it's the same for 'prevenient grace'.

Except that scripture never refers to anyone who is in the Spirit as unsaved.
And I realize that there was a typo in the post you responded to, causing confusion perhaps.

They are in the spirit in the manner that they are NOT in the flesh. They still haven't been justified, since one must believe to be justified. And they haven't been sealed by the Spirit yet. Temporally, it's virtually simultaneous.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It all comes down to whether this can be resisted or not.

I guess so.

Yes, I would consider myself a Classical Arminian

You would be the first one I've seen on CF.

So, is it OK if I hold you to "Classical Arminian" doctrine?

 

[HatGuy]

Except that scripture never refers to anyone who is in the Spirit as unsaved.
And I realize that there was a typo in the post you responded to, causing confusion perhaps.

They are in the spirit in the manner that they are NOT in the flesh. They still haven't been justified, since one must believe to be justified. And they haven't been sealed by the Spirit yet. Temporally, it's virtually simultaneous.

#typo

Ok, well I can't really see any need to continue the discussion TBH. I think we've done a great job of refining each other here.

 

[HatGuy]

I guess so.
So, is it OK if I hold you to "Classical Arminian" doctrine?

Sure, why not?

 

[rjs330]

I remember your first post. Would you like me to quote it?

It's called a principle Jimmy. God is the same yesterday today and forever he operates the same way. We are not far off from each other so I don't understand the resistance here. God calls people to himself in more ways than one. One of the ways is through nature as prescribed in Romans 1. I agree that the unregenerate heart does not naturally seek God on its own. Romans 1 explains that. They are without excuse. Jesus said he draws all.men unto him. Remember the story of Phillip? A man who was unregenerate was seeking answers and God sent him Phillip. Today we have athiests who are being told about Christ on this very board who are resistant to the gospel. But if they really listened and sought after God they would find him. And some athiests do.

From Atheism to Christianity: a Personal Journey

So I don't really understand the resistance to what I am saying here.

 

[rjs330]

Sure, this is where we have disagreement. I believe it can be resisted, you don't. I believe it can be resisted due to other factors, such as anthropology. But at least we've cleared up that prevenient grace is not so unbiblical after all - the disagreement comes in whether it can be resisted or not.

I really think that is the bottom line here. Can the call of God be resisted? I say it can be. Look at the people in scripture who did. Some don't. A minority as Jesus said. Many are called chosen are few. The chosen ones are the ones who heeded the call. One of the difficulties some face are the struggle that foreknowledge is causation. God knew therefore he caused. But knowledge is not an action. I understand the struggle with that. As Romans 1 points out men are without excuse. God called and they decided to pursue other things rather than him.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus said he draws all.men unto him.

The context of that was not each and every person who ever lived. The context means men from every nation. If it was the former, then all would be saved because in John 6 He says that all who are drawn will come to Him.

 

[Hammster]

I really think that is the bottom line here. Can the call of God be resisted? I say it can be. Look at the people in scripture who did. Some don't. A minority as Jesus said. Many are called chosen are few. The chosen ones are the ones who heeded the call. One of the difficulties some face are the struggle that foreknowledge is causation. God knew therefore he caused. But knowledge is not an action. I understand the struggle with that. As Romans 1 points out men are without excuse. God called and they decided to pursue other things rather than him.

Those who are called are also justified. What do you do with that verse?