Pretrib Discussion

[Biblewriter]

Actually
Actually, all three of the ones I quoted taught this, except that at least some of them foresaw only a three and a half year tribulation, rather than a seven year one.

Chiliasm was largely superseded by amillennialism.Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Augustine contributed to establishing amillennialism as the standard view of the church. Though some of the earliest Christian writers appear to have believed in a thousand year earthly reign of Christ we also have others who disagree. So there is no firm agreement on this issue.

Previous to Origen, not even one Christian writer whose works have survived to the present day was Amillennial. And after his time Chilism, as it was called at that time, was still taught by numerous Christian writers.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Previous to Origen, not even one Christian writer whose works have survived to the present day was Amillennial. And after his time Chilism, as it was called at that time, was still taught by numerous Christian writers.

That is not so! That is Dispy misinformation again. I will respond later!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Previous to Origen, not even one Christian writer whose works have survived to the present day was Amillennial. And after his time Chilism, as it was called at that time, was still taught by numerous Christian writers.

All the early Chiliasts believed (like apostate Judaism, where they got their doctrine) in an intermediate state in Hades during the intra-Advent period. The Amils believed it was in heaven.

 

[Biblewriter]

Between AD 30-AD 130 there are 13 ECFs that taught on end-times, only 1 was a Chiliast - Papias.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Previous to some time near the year 94, the reason no one believed in a thousand year reign of Christ was because it had not yet been revealed. And during that period, there was not even one Christian who wrote at any significant length about the end times. Papias wrote the very earliest commentary on prophecy, as such. All earlier mentions of the end times were only casual mentions in articles about other subjects.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Previous to some time near the year 94, no one believed in a thousand year reign of Christ because it had not yet been revealed.

That is because it is a symbolic figure relating to the intra-Advent period. It started at Christ's first resurrection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Previous to some time near the year 94, the reason no one believed in a thousand year reign of Christ was because it had not yet been revealed. And during that period, there was not even one Christian who wrote at any significant length about the end times. Papias wrote the very earliest commentary on prophecy, as such. All earlier mentions of the end times were only casual mentions in articles about other subjects.

Will you please address #62 and #74.

 

[Biblewriter]

Between AD 30-AD 130 there are 13 ECFs that taught on end-times, only 1 was a Chiliast - Papias.

Although I already responded to this post, I must add that this at least appears to be intentionally deceptive. Of course no one who wrote before the Revelation was given spoke of the thousand year reign, because that was the first place in the scriptures that specified that the reign would last 1000 years. But the deception does not end there. For all 12 of the writers before Papias that spoke of the end times only mentioned them in articles that were actually about other subjects. So not even one of these Christians actually “wrote about the end times.” All they did was mention them.

This is typical of the deceptive nature of almost everything this poster has posted in this entire discussion, both in this thread and the first one, alleging “facts” that are either incorrect or meaningless. And this appears to be done in a willful attempt to mislead the readers.

 

[Biblewriter]

That is because it is a symbolic figure relating to the intra-Advent period. It started at Christ's first resurrection.

Here, you openly declare what I have previously pointed out. Your interpretation is based on an assumption that the Bible simply does not mean what it so explicitly says.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Here, you openly declare what I have previously pointed out. Your interpretation is based on an assumption that the Bible simply does not mean what it so explicitly says.

The difference between Pretribs and Amils is context. Amils believe in context. Pretribbers don't. Pretribbers wrongly force a literal meaning on even the most blatant of symbolic books, because analyzing its thrust. However, the Bible student should always note the setting, genre and context of the truth/verse one is studying and establish what the Holy Spirit is actually saying in the overall passage. Context is crucial in biblical interpretation. We need to establish whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and who, what and when it relates to. Is it speaking of the past, present or future? Is it principally speaking to the people receiving it or is it speaking prophetically of an approaching event? Is the sentence a command, a statement of fact or a question? We should always be sensitive to its setting, style of writing, and the respective subject under discussion.

Pretribbers literalise the most figurative book in the Bible. That is one of a thousand reasons why their eschatology does not fit.

The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount. It is not strange that this intra-Advent period is symbolism by such a symbolic figure because no man knows how long it is. Remember it is a book full of this lingo. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Of course not! It means a short period of time. The genre of Rev and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of rhetoric and figurative language.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is intentionally deceptive. Of course no one who wrote before the Revelation was given spoke of the thousand year reign, because that was the first place in the scriptures that specified that the reign would last 1000 years. But the deception does not end there. For all 12 of the writers before Papias that spoke of the end times only mentioned them casually in articles that were about other subjects. So not even one of these Christians actually “wrote about the end times.” All they did was mention them.

This is typical of the deceptive nature of almost everything you have said in this entire discussion, both in this thread and the first one. You allege “facts” that are either incorrect or meaningless. And you appear to be doing this in a willful attempt to mislead your readers.

Will you please address #62 and #74. You have been skipping around them!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Previous to Origen, not even one Christian writer whose works have survived to the present day was Amillennial. And after his time Chilism, as it was called at that time, was still taught by numerous Christian writers.

Seems we can settle on the Fathers were mixed on the matter. No solid conclusion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

(continued from posts 59 and 60)

Again, there is an ancient sermon titled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” The date and author of this sermon is unknown, but it is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Most of the surviving copies of this sermon say it was written by Ephraem, but one says its author was Isadore of Seville. Based on events the sermon said were impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 A. D. to as late as 627 A.D. Paul J. Alexander gave what seems to be the most satisfactory analysis of its date, concluding that the original had to have been written in or near the fourth century, but that copiers had added other material sometime around the seventh century. As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known a Ephraem of Nisbis) they call the unknown author of this sermon, Pseudo-Ephraem. The sermon was divided into ten paragraphs, and said in paragraph 2:

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

It would be difficult to make a more clear statement of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. But even so, some still deny that it was pre-tribulational, because of an interpretation they put on paragraph 10 of the same sermon, which said:

“And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth.”

These people claim that the rapture is in this paragraph, instead of paragraph 2, because of the words “Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!” But this is a serious error. Are we to think this unknown writer was unfamiliar with John 5:24, where Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” The “hour of judgment” is not for the saints of God. It is for sinners. These people would not have made this error if they had noticed who this paragraph says will be with the Lord as He comes. It is “all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders.” Thus we see the previously raptured saints of God coming with the Lord when He comes to judge the world. This was stated twice over, first calling them “the whole chorus of the saints,” and then “those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders.” It was completely consistent to have the rapture before “the whole chorus of the saints” coming with the Lord when He comes “with great power and much majesty” for “his hour of judgement.”

Finally, these same people also claim that the sermon has the church still in the world at the time of the Antichrist, because the sermon also says, at the end of paragraph 8:

“But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs.”

But this argument is based on another error. These people interpret every reference to people turning to God to mean the church. But those who believe that the rapture will be before the tribulation have always taught that some will repent and turn to God after the church has been removed. We remember that Irenaeus had referred to these with the words that this tribulation “is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” So the fact that the sermon has some bending “their knees to God” as they flee “from the face of the serpent” does not in any way prove, or even imply, that it was teaching that the church would still be in the world at that time.

So there is no reason to even question that the unknown writer of this sermon actually meant what he so plainly said, that “all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Thus we se that the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation goes all the way back to the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) which has survived to the present day, and that it continued to be taught at least until near the end of the fourth century.

Irenaeus at no stage believed or promoted Pretrib. Dispensational writers are so captivated with their theology that it is impossible for them to be objective,. I have never seen a fair and objective historian among them. You should have got someone to proof your writing before publishing them, especially someone who is familiar with the ECFs. Your claims are both outlandish and erroneous.

Satan bound at the cross

For He fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers, and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6)

By means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan's) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under colour of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods (talking about the lie of Satan in the Garden), which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive (namely Satan), was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 1).

Irenaeus here connects Matthew 12:29 and Revelation 20 1-3 together proving that the binding of Satan has already occurred 2,000 years ago.

For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy's head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head,—which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: "You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon;"— indicating (1) that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; (2) and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and (3) that He should bind "the dragon, that old serpent" and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that all his might should be trodden down. Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 7).

In keeping with the rest of his writings Irenaeus shows Christ taking back off Satan at the 1st Advent what Adam forfeited at the beginning. This permeates through different writings of Irenaeus. The references to “dragon” and “serpent” here are clear and overt references to Revelation 20:2.

This passage starts off by describing the separation that came “between the serpent and the woman and her seed” after the fall. Irenaeus identifies man’s great enemy and what he wrought. He then reveals God’s great antidote – the Lord Jesus Christ. He shows how Christ came to rectify what was wrong. He testifies how Satan had been “biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head, — which was born of Mary.” Irenaeus confirms: “Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life.” The ancient writer relates the trampling down and bruising of the devil’s head to the victory of Christ’s ministry. Sin, death and every enemy of righteousness was defeated through the life, death and glorious resurrection of Christ.

Irenaeus doesn’t just limit the conquest of the First Advent to our arch-enemy Satan. He shows that assault also saw the defeat of antichrist. He supports this contention by quoting Psalm 91:13: "You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon." The fate of Satan in Scripture normally mirrors that of antichrist (the mystery of iniquity/the beast). Irenaeus here connects the trampling down of Satan to the binding of "the dragon, that old serpent." He then in turn shows how redeemed man was given authority over Satan, after Christ spiritually bound him. He was talking about the after-effects of the cross on Satan, and to this current intra-Advent period (“in the latter days”).

This fits with his constant teaching on the current binding of Satan, which refutes modern Premil. Sin, death, the beast and Satan are all shown to have been defeated through their earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

The writer also shows that the last enemy to be eliminated is death when Jesus returns. But the defeat of death was on the cross, work Christ secured our salvation. That is why Irenaeus concludes – speaking about the final subjugation of death, “This could not be said with justice, if that man, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For his salvation is death's destruction.”

The Lord showed Himself under every aspect and truly to be the strong man, saying that one can in no other way "spoil the goods of a strong man, if he do not first bind the strong man himself, and then he will spoil his house." Now we were the vessels and the house of this [strong man] when we were in a state of apostasy; for he put us to whatever use he pleased, and the unclean spirit dwelt within us. For he was not strong, as opposed to Him who bound him, and spoiled his house; but as against those persons who were his tools, inasmuch as he caused their thought to wander away from God: these did the Lord snatch from his grasp. As also Jeremiah declares, "The Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and has snatched him from the hand of him that was stronger than he." If, then, he had not pointed out Him who binds and spoils his goods, but had merely spoken of him as being strong, the strong man should have been unconquered (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 8).

How, too, could He have subdued him who was stronger than men, who had not only overcome man, but also retained him under his power, and conquered him who had conquered, while he set free mankind who had been conquered, unless He had been greater than man who had thus been vanquished? But who else is superior to, and more eminent than, that man who was formed after the likeness of God, except the Son of God, after whose image man was created? And for this reason He did in these last days exhibit the similitude; [for] the Son of God was made man, assuming the ancient production [of His hands] into His own nature, as I have shown in the immediately preceding book (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 33:4).

God has banished from His presence him who did of his own accord stealthily sow the tares, that is, him who brought about the transgression … The Scripture tells us that God said to the serpent, And I will place enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. And the Lord summed up in Himself this enmity, when He was made man from a woman, and trod upon his [the serpent's] head (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 40, 3)

The law does indeed declare the Word of God from the Father; and the apostate angel of God is destroyed by its voice, being exposed in his true colours, and vanquished by the Son of man keeping the commandment of God … It was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since "none can enter a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself." The Lord therefore exposes him as speaking contrary to the word of that God who made all things, and subdues him by means of the commandment. Now the law is the commandment of God. The Man proves him to be a fugitive from and a transgressor of the law, an apostate also from God. After [the Man had done this], the Word bound him securely as a fugitive from Himself, and made spoil of his goods – namely, those men whom he held in bondage, and whom he unjustly used for his own purposes. And justly indeed is he led captive, who had led men unjustly into bondage; while man, who had been led captive in times past, was rescued from the grasp of his possessor (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 3)

The Word of God, however, the Maker of all things, conquering him by means of human nature, and showing him to be an apostate, has, on the contrary, put him under the power of man. For He says, Behold, I confer upon you the power of treading upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, in order that, as he obtained dominion over man by apostasy, so again his apostasy might be deprived of power by means of man turning back again to God (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 24).

Every single reference to the binding of Satan here relates to the defeat of Satan at the cross and the taking back of what Adam forfeited in the fall. You fail to even acknowledge that or address that. To do so would obliterate your whole argument.

Satan destroyed when at the general resurrection

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.)

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).

 

[sovereigngrace]

(continued from post 59)


We come now to Victorinus, who is thought to have written the following sometime around the year 240 A.D.

Commentary on the Apocalypse 6:14:

“ ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.’ ‘And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

We need to notice here that Victorinus did not make these clauses active, saying “the church shall go away,” or “the good will flee.” Instead these clauses are both in the passive, that the church “shall be taken away,” and that the good “will be removed.” So this is not, as some allege, a statement that the church will flee out of society, hiding in wilderness places.

Again, Victorinus said:

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15:1:

“ ‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’ For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

This, being in the active, could refer to flight. But when taken in connection to the previous statement, we see that this was not what Victorinus was saying.

And some will protest that these are not truly the words of Victorinus. For they are different in the version presented in “The Early Church Fathers, Ante-Nicene Fathers,” volume 7. These protestors think that Victorinus was Amillennial, and that thus his comments could not have contained these words. But these people are unaware that the copy reproduced in “the Early Church Fathers” is not the actual document written by Victorinus, but a rewritten version produced by Jerome. Jerome’s own statement concerning his revision of this work is found in his letter to Anatolius, which is in the prologue to his revision of the Commentary on the Apocalypse by Victorinus. In this letter, Jerome said:

“Those crossing over the perilous seas find different dangers. If a storm of winds has become violent, it is a terror; if the moderate air has calmed the back of the elements, lying calm, they fear traps. Thus is seen in this book which you have sent to me, which is seen to contain the explanation of the Apocalypse by Victorinus. Also, it is dangerous, and opens to the barkings of detractors, to judge the short works of eminent men. For even earlier Papias, the bishop of Hierapolis, and Nepos, the bishop of parts of Egypt, perceived of the kingdom of the thousand years just as Victorinus. And because you are in your letters entreating me, I do not want to delay, but nor do I want to scorn praying. I immediately unwound the books of the greats, and what I found in their commentaries about the kingdom of the thousand years, I added to the little work of Victorinus, erasing from there those things which he perceived according to the letter.
“From the beginning of the book to the sign of the cross, we have corrected things which are the corruptions of inexperience of scribes. Know that from there to the end of the book is added. Now it is yours to judge, and to confirm what pleases. If our life will be made longer and the Lord will give health, for you, our most capable genius will sweat over this book, dearest Anatolius.”

Both the original text by Victorinus, and the prologue by Jerome, can be read in their entirety at either:
Victorinus, In Apocalypsin – biblicalia
or:
St. Victorinus of Petau | Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism | The Preterist Archive www.preteristarchive.com,reformed,partial,orthodoxy,orthodox,futurist,preterism,historicism,fulfillment,apocalypse

So Victorinus indeed taught “that the Church shall be taken away,” and that “the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution.” And that in the last time “the church shall have gone out of the midst.” This most certainly seems to be a teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.

(cotinued)

Revelation 6:13-14 is not your Pretrib rapture. Your rapture happens in Revelation 4:1, even though there is no mention of the Church in that verse, and that it is referring to John getting caught up into heaven 2000 years ago. So I am shocked that you would say he was Pretrib.

What is more the Church is still on earth in Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 13:13.

Revelation 12:6 states: “But the woman fled into the wilderness, and there were given to her two great eagle's wings. The aid of the great eagle's wings — to wit, the gift of prophets— was given to that Catholic Church, whence in the last times a hundred and forty-four thousands of men should believe in the preaching of Elias.”

Revelation 13:13: “Thence here he places, and by and by here he renews, that of which the Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: But when you shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who reads understand. It is called a contempt when God is provoked, because idols are worshipped instead of God, or when the dogma of heretics is introduced in the churches. But it is a turning away because steadfast men, seduced by false signs and portents, are turned away from their salvation.”

This is totally contrary to Pretrib doctrine!

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other than the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

I cannot believe that you would claim any of these ECFs who taught who taught the Church was true Israel today, as Amils believe.

Justin
Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(AD 100-166)

Dialogue with Trypho, 11

And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt’. If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.

Justin explains that those in Christ are spiritual Israel and the true offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah. The new covenant is an ongoing arrangement from the cross and man’s only hope of salvation.

Chapter 24.

Justin: Now, sirs, it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will—as was declared above—with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provokes Me to my face.'

Jerusalem is here spiritualized and is the abode of the elect of God throughout the nations.

Chapter 118

I will establish Him in my house, and in His kingdom forever.' And Ezekiel says, 'There shall be no other prince in the house but He.’ For He is the chosen Priest and eternal King, the Christ, inasmuch as He is the Son of God; and do not suppose that Isaiah or the other prophets speak of sacrifices of blood or libations being presented at the altar on His second advent, but of true and spiritual praises and giving of thanks.

Chapter 125

Justin: I wish, sirs, to learn from you what is the force of the name Israel…

The name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power; for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power. And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures. For when He became man, as I previously remarked, the devil came to Him—i.e., that power which is called the serpent and Satan—tempting Him, and striving to effect His downfall by asking Him to worship him. But He destroyed and overthrew the devil, having proved him to be wicked, in that he asked to be worshipped as God, contrary to the Scripture; who is an apostate from the will of God. For He answers him, 'It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.' Then, overcome and convicted, the devil departed at that time. But since our Christ was to be numbed, i.e., by pain and experience of suffering, He made a previous intimation of this by touching Jacob's thigh, and causing it to shrink. But Israel was His name from the beginning, to which He altered the name of the blessed Jacob when He blessed him with His own name, proclaiming thereby that all who through Him have fled for refuge to the Father, constitute the blessed Israel. But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I have proved by many words.

Chapter CXXXIV

Jacob was called Israel; and Israel has been demonstrated to be the Christ, who is, and is called, Jesus.

Chapter CXXXV

As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. … understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people (the Jewish people) … it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.

Hippolytus
Rome, Italy
(AD 170 – 236)

On the End of the World

3. Isaiah as our first witness, inasmuch as he instructs us in the times of the consummation. What, then, does he say? Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence: the daughter of Zion shall be left as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. You see, beloved, the prophet's illumination, whereby he announced that time so many generations before. For it is not of the Jews that he spoke this word of old, nor of the city of Zion, but of the Church. For all the prophets have declared Sion to be the bride brought from the nations.

Please notice that this is an explanation of Isaiah 1:7-9, which definitely relates to natural Israel. But the writer here applies the "very small remnant" to the Church. The sacred text states: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."

Didascalia Apostolorum
CHAPTER XXVI

Why bring ye me frankincense from Sheba, and cinnamon from a far country? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable unto me, and your sacrifices delight me not, And again He said: Bring together your burnt offerings with your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I gave you no command, when I brought you out from the land of Egypt, neither concerning burnt offerings nor concerning sacrifices. Yea, verily, in the Law He gave no command, but in the bonds of the Second Legislation, after that they had served idols. And again by Isaiah also He said: To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord, I am sated with burnt offerings of rams; and the fat of lambs and the blood of oxen I desire not. And when ye come to see my face, who hath required these things at your hands? Trample my courts no more. If ye will bring me fine flour, it is a vain oblation; and your new moons and your sabbaths and solemn days are rejected of me: your fasts and your restings are not acceptable unto me, and your festivals my soul hateth. And in all the Scriptures He speaks thus; and through the sacrifices He abolishes the Second Legislation; for, as we have already said, it is in the Second Legislation that sacrifices are prescribed. If, then, even before His coming He made known and revealed His coming, and the disobedience of the People, and spoke of the abolition of the Second Legislation, much more, being come, did He fully and completely abolish the Second Legislation. For He did not use sprinklings, or baptisms, or other wonted rites; nor did He offer sacrifices or burnt offerings, or any thing that it is written in the Second Legislation to offer. And what else did He (hereby) signify but the abolition of the Second Legislation? as also He loosed you and called you from the bonds, and said: Come unto me, all ye that toil and are laden with heavy burdens; and I will give you rest. Now we know that our Saviour did not say (this) to the Gentiles, but He said it to us His disciples from among the Jews, and brought us out from burdens and a heavy load.

He overthrew the temple, and caused the altar to cease, and made an end of sacrifices, and all the commands and bonds that are in the Second Legislation He abolished,

When thou affirmest the Second Legislation, thou consentest to the curse against our Saviour; and thou settest at naught Christ the King, who distributes blessings to them that are worthy. Wherefore thou shalt inherit a curse; for every one that shall curse a man is cursed [and every one that blesseth is blessed]. To what curses, therefore, and to what judgement or to what condemnation shall they be delivered who affirm a curse against our Saviour and our Lord and our God!

[vi. 22] Wherefore, beloved, flee and avoid such observances: for you have received release, that you should no more bind yourselves; and do not load yourselves again with that which our Lord and Saviour has lifted from you

Do you therefore, our beloved, avoid all such foolish observances, and come not near them.

Irenaeus
Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France)
(AD 150)

Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter XXIII, 1.

Perchance the Jews, complying with our humour, did put this interpretation upon these words. They indeed, had they been cognizant of our future existence, and that we should use these proofs from the Scriptures, would themselves never have hesitated to burn their own Scriptures, which do declare that all other nations partake of [eternal] life, and show that they who boast themselves as being the house of Jacob and the people of Israel, are disinherited from the grace of God.

Book IV.
Chapter 33, 12,

He entered Jerusalem, in which by His passion and crucifixion He endured all the things which have been mentioned. Others, again, when they said, "The holy Lord remembered His own dead ones who slept in the dust, and came down to them to raise them up, that He might save them," furnished us with the reason on account of which He suffered all these things. Those, moreover, who said, "In that day, saith the Lord, the sun shall go down at noon, and there shall be darkness over the earth in the clear day; and I will turn your feast days into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation," plainly announced that obscuration of the sun which at the time of His crucifixion took place from the sixth hour onwards, and that after this event, those days which were their festivals according to the law, and their songs, should be changed into grief and lamentation when they were handed over to the Gentiles.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXII, 2

If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXIV, 1

The church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament “raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,” is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations,

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXIV, 3.

Now, that the promises were not announced to the prophets and the fathers alone, but to the Churches united to these from the nations, whom also the Spirit terms “the islands” …Jeremiah thus declares: “Hear the word of the Lord, ye nations, and declare it to the isles afar off; say ye, that the Lord will scatter Israel, He will gather him, and keep him, as one feeding his flock of sheep. For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and rescued him from the hand of one stronger than he. And they shall come and rejoice in Mount Zion, and shall come to what is good, and into a land of wheat, and wine, and fruits, of animals and of sheep; and their soul shall be as a tree bearing fruit, and they shall hunger no more. At that time also shall the virgins rejoice in the company of the young men: the old men, too, shall be glad, and I will turn their sorrow into joy; and I will make them exult, and will magnify them, and satiate the souls of the priests the sons of Levi; and my people shall be satiated with my goodness.” Now, in the preceding book have shown that all the disciples of the Lord are Levites and priests

 

[Biblewriter]

Irenaeus at no stage believed or promoted Pretrib. Dispensational writers are so captivated with their theology that it is impossible for them to be objective,. I have never seen a fair and objective historian among them. You should have got someone to proof your writing before publishing them, especially someone who is familiar with the ECFs. Your claims are both outlandish and erroneous.

Satan bound at the cross

For He fought and conquered; for He was man contending for the fathers, and through obedience doing away with disobedience completely: for He bound the strong man, and set free the weak, and endowed His own handiwork with salvation, by destroying sin. For He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and loves the human race (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 18, 6)

By means of the second man did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and abolished death, vivifying that man who had been in a state of death. For at the first Adam became a vessel in his (Satan's) possession, whom he did also hold under his power, that is, by bringing sin on him iniquitously, and under colour of immortality entailing death upon him. For, while promising that they should be as gods (talking about the lie of Satan in the Garden), which was in no way possible for him to be, he wrought death in them: wherefore he who had led man captive (namely Satan), was justly captured in his turn by God; but man, who had been led captive, was loosed from the bonds of condemnation (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 1).

Irenaeus here connects Matthew 12:29 and Revelation 20 1-3 together proving that the binding of Satan has already occurred 2,000 years ago.

For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy's head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head,—which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: "You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon;"— indicating (1) that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; (2) and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and (3) that He should bind "the dragon, that old serpent" and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that all his might should be trodden down. Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 7).

In keeping with the rest of his writings Irenaeus shows Christ taking back off Satan at the 1st Advent what Adam forfeited at the beginning. This permeates through different writings of Irenaeus. The references to “dragon” and “serpent” here are clear and overt references to Revelation 20:2.

This passage starts off by describing the separation that came “between the serpent and the woman and her seed” after the fall. Irenaeus identifies man’s great enemy and what he wrought. He then reveals God’s great antidote – the Lord Jesus Christ. He shows how Christ came to rectify what was wrong. He testifies how Satan had been “biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head, — which was born of Mary.” Irenaeus confirms: “Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life.” The ancient writer relates the trampling down and bruising of the devil’s head to the victory of Christ’s ministry. Sin, death and every enemy of righteousness was defeated through the life, death and glorious resurrection of Christ.

Irenaeus doesn’t just limit the conquest of the First Advent to our arch-enemy Satan. He shows that assault also saw the defeat of antichrist. He supports this contention by quoting Psalm 91:13: "You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon." The fate of Satan in Scripture normally mirrors that of antichrist (the mystery of iniquity/the beast). Irenaeus here connects the trampling down of Satan to the binding of "the dragon, that old serpent." He then in turn shows how redeemed man was given authority over Satan, after Christ spiritually bound him. He was talking about the after-effects of the cross on Satan, and to this current intra-Advent period (“in the latter days”).

This fits with his constant teaching on the current binding of Satan, which refutes modern Premil. Sin, death, the beast and Satan are all shown to have been defeated through their earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

The writer also shows that the last enemy to be eliminated is death when Jesus returns. But the defeat of death was on the cross, work Christ secured our salvation. That is why Irenaeus concludes – speaking about the final subjugation of death, “This could not be said with justice, if that man, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For his salvation is death's destruction.”

The Lord showed Himself under every aspect and truly to be the strong man, saying that one can in no other way "spoil the goods of a strong man, if he do not first bind the strong man himself, and then he will spoil his house." Now we were the vessels and the house of this [strong man] when we were in a state of apostasy; for he put us to whatever use he pleased, and the unclean spirit dwelt within us. For he was not strong, as opposed to Him who bound him, and spoiled his house; but as against those persons who were his tools, inasmuch as he caused their thought to wander away from God: these did the Lord snatch from his grasp. As also Jeremiah declares, "The Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and has snatched him from the hand of him that was stronger than he." If, then, he had not pointed out Him who binds and spoils his goods, but had merely spoken of him as being strong, the strong man should have been unconquered (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 8).

How, too, could He have subdued him who was stronger than men, who had not only overcome man, but also retained him under his power, and conquered him who had conquered, while he set free mankind who had been conquered, unless He had been greater than man who had thus been vanquished? But who else is superior to, and more eminent than, that man who was formed after the likeness of God, except the Son of God, after whose image man was created? And for this reason He did in these last days exhibit the similitude; [for] the Son of God was made man, assuming the ancient production [of His hands] into His own nature, as I have shown in the immediately preceding book (Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 33:4).

God has banished from His presence him who did of his own accord stealthily sow the tares, that is, him who brought about the transgression … The Scripture tells us that God said to the serpent, And I will place enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. And the Lord summed up in Himself this enmity, when He was made man from a woman, and trod upon his [the serpent's] head (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 40, 3)

The law does indeed declare the Word of God from the Father; and the apostate angel of God is destroyed by its voice, being exposed in his true colours, and vanquished by the Son of man keeping the commandment of God … It was necessary that through man himself he should, when conquered, be bound with the same chains with which he had bound man, in order that man, being set free, might return to his Lord, leaving to him (Satan) those bonds by which he himself had been fettered, that is, sin. For when Satan is bound, man is set free; since "none can enter a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless he first bind the strong man himself." The Lord therefore exposes him as speaking contrary to the word of that God who made all things, and subdues him by means of the commandment. Now the law is the commandment of God. The Man proves him to be a fugitive from and a transgressor of the law, an apostate also from God. After [the Man had done this], the Word bound him securely as a fugitive from Himself, and made spoil of his goods – namely, those men whom he held in bondage, and whom he unjustly used for his own purposes. And justly indeed is he led captive, who had led men unjustly into bondage; while man, who had been led captive in times past, was rescued from the grasp of his possessor (Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 21, 3)

The Word of God, however, the Maker of all things, conquering him by means of human nature, and showing him to be an apostate, has, on the contrary, put him under the power of man. For He says, Behold, I confer upon you the power of treading upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, in order that, as he obtained dominion over man by apostasy, so again his apostasy might be deprived of power by means of man turning back again to God (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 24).

Every single reference to the binding of Satan here relates to the defeat of Satan at the cross and the taking back of what Adam forfeited in the fall. You fail to even acknowledge that or address that. To do so would obliterate your whole argument.

Satan destroyed when at the general resurrection

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.)

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).

You obviously did not even bother to read what I posted, for you have completely failed to answer even one of the points I made. I indeed recognized, and clearly recognized, that Irenaeus said things like you have posted here. But I also pointed out numerous specific details in the wording he used, that clearly showed that he really meant what he said when he wrote:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

 

[Biblewriter]

Revelation 6:13-14 is not your Pretrib rapture. Your rapture happens in Revelation 4:1, even though there is no mention of the Church in that verse, and that it is referring to John getting caught up into heaven 2000 years ago. So I am shocked that you would say he was Pretrib.

What is more the Church is still on earth in Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 13:13.

Revelation 12:6 states: “But the woman fled into the wilderness, and there were given to her two great eagle's wings. The aid of the great eagle's wings — to wit, the gift of prophets— was given to that Catholic Church, whence in the last times a hundred and forty-four thousands of men should believe in the preaching of Elias.”

Revelation 13:13: “Thence here he places, and by and by here he renews, that of which the Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: But when you shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who reads understand. It is called a contempt when God is provoked, because idols are worshipped instead of God, or when the dogma of heretics is introduced in the churches. But it is a turning away because steadfast men, seduced by false signs and portents, are turned away from their salvation.”

This is totally contrary to Pretrib doctrine!

You are ignoring the subject of the post you are answering. The subject is what Victorinus taught, not what is scripturally correct. And the fact that his pre-trib doctrine is somewhat different from what some teach today is irrelevant. Add to this the fact that you have clearly demonstrated that you have very little understanding of what modern pre-trib leaders teach.

 

[Biblewriter]

I cannot believe that you would claim any of these ECFs who taught who taught the Church was true Israel today, as Amils believe.

Justin
Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(AD 100-166)

Dialogue with Trypho, 11

And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt’. If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.

Justin explains that those in Christ are spiritual Israel and the true offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah. The new covenant is an ongoing arrangement from the cross and man’s only hope of salvation.

Chapter 24.

Justin: Now, sirs, it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will—as was declared above—with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me;' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provokes Me to my face.'

Jerusalem is here spiritualized and is the abode of the elect of God throughout the nations.

Chapter 118

I will establish Him in my house, and in His kingdom forever.' And Ezekiel says, 'There shall be no other prince in the house but He.’ For He is the chosen Priest and eternal King, the Christ, inasmuch as He is the Son of God; and do not suppose that Isaiah or the other prophets speak of sacrifices of blood or libations being presented at the altar on His second advent, but of true and spiritual praises and giving of thanks.

Chapter 125

Justin: I wish, sirs, to learn from you what is the force of the name Israel…

The name Israel signifies this, A man who overcomes power; for Isra is a man overcoming, and El is power. And that Christ would act so when He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures. For when He became man, as I previously remarked, the devil came to Him—i.e., that power which is called the serpent and Satan—tempting Him, and striving to effect His downfall by asking Him to worship him. But He destroyed and overthrew the devil, having proved him to be wicked, in that he asked to be worshipped as God, contrary to the Scripture; who is an apostate from the will of God. For He answers him, 'It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.' Then, overcome and convicted, the devil departed at that time. But since our Christ was to be numbed, i.e., by pain and experience of suffering, He made a previous intimation of this by touching Jacob's thigh, and causing it to shrink. But Israel was His name from the beginning, to which He altered the name of the blessed Jacob when He blessed him with His own name, proclaiming thereby that all who through Him have fled for refuge to the Father, constitute the blessed Israel. But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I have proved by many words.

Chapter CXXXIV

Jacob was called Israel; and Israel has been demonstrated to be the Christ, who is, and is called, Jesus.

Chapter CXXXV

As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. … understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people (the Jewish people) … it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.

Hippolytus
Rome, Italy
(AD 170 – 236)

On the End of the World

3. Isaiah as our first witness, inasmuch as he instructs us in the times of the consummation. What, then, does he say? Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence: the daughter of Zion shall be left as a cottage in a vineyard, and as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. You see, beloved, the prophet's illumination, whereby he announced that time so many generations before. For it is not of the Jews that he spoke this word of old, nor of the city of Zion, but of the Church. For all the prophets have declared Sion to be the bride brought from the nations.

Please notice that this is an explanation of Isaiah 1:7-9, which definitely relates to natural Israel. But the writer here applies the "very small remnant" to the Church. The sacred text states: "Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."

Didascalia Apostolorum
CHAPTER XXVI

Why bring ye me frankincense from Sheba, and cinnamon from a far country? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable unto me, and your sacrifices delight me not, And again He said: Bring together your burnt offerings with your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I gave you no command, when I brought you out from the land of Egypt, neither concerning burnt offerings nor concerning sacrifices. Yea, verily, in the Law He gave no command, but in the bonds of the Second Legislation, after that they had served idols. And again by Isaiah also He said: To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord, I am sated with burnt offerings of rams; and the fat of lambs and the blood of oxen I desire not. And when ye come to see my face, who hath required these things at your hands? Trample my courts no more. If ye will bring me fine flour, it is a vain oblation; and your new moons and your sabbaths and solemn days are rejected of me: your fasts and your restings are not acceptable unto me, and your festivals my soul hateth. And in all the Scriptures He speaks thus; and through the sacrifices He abolishes the Second Legislation; for, as we have already said, it is in the Second Legislation that sacrifices are prescribed. If, then, even before His coming He made known and revealed His coming, and the disobedience of the People, and spoke of the abolition of the Second Legislation, much more, being come, did He fully and completely abolish the Second Legislation. For He did not use sprinklings, or baptisms, or other wonted rites; nor did He offer sacrifices or burnt offerings, or any thing that it is written in the Second Legislation to offer. And what else did He (hereby) signify but the abolition of the Second Legislation? as also He loosed you and called you from the bonds, and said: Come unto me, all ye that toil and are laden with heavy burdens; and I will give you rest. Now we know that our Saviour did not say (this) to the Gentiles, but He said it to us His disciples from among the Jews, and brought us out from burdens and a heavy load.

He overthrew the temple, and caused the altar to cease, and made an end of sacrifices, and all the commands and bonds that are in the Second Legislation He abolished,

When thou affirmest the Second Legislation, thou consentest to the curse against our Saviour; and thou settest at naught Christ the King, who distributes blessings to them that are worthy. Wherefore thou shalt inherit a curse; for every one that shall curse a man is cursed [and every one that blesseth is blessed]. To what curses, therefore, and to what judgement or to what condemnation shall they be delivered who affirm a curse against our Saviour and our Lord and our God!

[vi. 22] Wherefore, beloved, flee and avoid such observances: for you have received release, that you should no more bind yourselves; and do not load yourselves again with that which our Lord and Saviour has lifted from you

Do you therefore, our beloved, avoid all such foolish observances, and come not near them.

Irenaeus
Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, (now France)
(AD 150)

Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter XXIII, 1.

Perchance the Jews, complying with our humour, did put this interpretation upon these words. They indeed, had they been cognizant of our future existence, and that we should use these proofs from the Scriptures, would themselves never have hesitated to burn their own Scriptures, which do declare that all other nations partake of [eternal] life, and show that they who boast themselves as being the house of Jacob and the people of Israel, are disinherited from the grace of God.

Book IV.
Chapter 33, 12,

He entered Jerusalem, in which by His passion and crucifixion He endured all the things which have been mentioned. Others, again, when they said, "The holy Lord remembered His own dead ones who slept in the dust, and came down to them to raise them up, that He might save them," furnished us with the reason on account of which He suffered all these things. Those, moreover, who said, "In that day, saith the Lord, the sun shall go down at noon, and there shall be darkness over the earth in the clear day; and I will turn your feast days into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation," plainly announced that obscuration of the sun which at the time of His crucifixion took place from the sixth hour onwards, and that after this event, those days which were their festivals according to the law, and their songs, should be changed into grief and lamentation when they were handed over to the Gentiles.

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXII, 2

If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXIV, 1

The church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament “raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,” is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations,

Against Heresies Book V, Chapter XXXIV, 3.

Now, that the promises were not announced to the prophets and the fathers alone, but to the Churches united to these from the nations, whom also the Spirit terms “the islands” …Jeremiah thus declares: “Hear the word of the Lord, ye nations, and declare it to the isles afar off; say ye, that the Lord will scatter Israel, He will gather him, and keep him, as one feeding his flock of sheep. For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and rescued him from the hand of one stronger than he. And they shall come and rejoice in Mount Zion, and shall come to what is good, and into a land of wheat, and wine, and fruits, of animals and of sheep; and their soul shall be as a tree bearing fruit, and they shall hunger no more. At that time also shall the virgins rejoice in the company of the young men: the old men, too, shall be glad, and I will turn their sorrow into joy; and I will make them exult, and will magnify them, and satiate the souls of the priests the sons of Levi; and my people shall be satiated with my goodness.” Now, in the preceding book have shown that all the disciples of the Lord are Levites and priests

Again, the deceptive spirit that is behind your campaign, is driving you to present inane arguments that have nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. The point of the current discussion is what they said about the timing of the rapture. So what they said about other subjects is wholly immaterial.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You obviously did not even bother to read what I posted, for you have completely failed to answer even one of the points I made. I indeed recognized, and clearly recognized, that Irenaeus said things like you have posted here. But I also pointed out numerous specific details in the wording he used, that clearly showed that he really meant what he said when he wrote:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

If i was you I would do a recall of your book until the facts are sorted out. You are twisting what Irenaeus actually said. Read what he writes after quoting the Scripture!

Against Heresies Book V

Chapter XXIX.—

“There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

He exegetes the text and locates the righteous being involved in fighting the last battle against the wicked.

Against Heresies Book V

Chapter XXVIII

4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: "I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God."

Against Heresies Book IV

Chapter XXXIII –

1. ... all the prophets announced his two advents: the one, indeed, in which He became a man subject to stripes, and knowing what it is to bear infirmity, and sat upon the foal of an ass, and was a stone rejected by the builders, and was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and by the stretching forth of His hands destroyed Amalek; while He gathered from the ends of the earth into His Father's fold the children who were scattered abroad, and remembered His own dead ones who had formerly fallen asleep, and came down to them that He might deliver them: but the second in which He will come on the clouds, bringing on the day which burns as a furnace? and smiting the earth with the word of His mouth? and slaying the impious with the breath of His lips, and having a fan in His hands, and cleansing His floor, and gathering the wheat indeed into His barn, but burning the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[Biblewriter]

Seems we can settle on the Fathers were mixed on the matter. No solid conclusion.

The early Christian writers were remarkably (even though not totally) uniform in their opinions. But as the centuries passed, the church gave up a great amount of the truth she originally held. So there is very little uniformity between the early and late ancient writers.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are ignoring the subject of the post you are answering. The subject is what Victorinus taught, not what is scripturally correct. And the fact that his pre-trib doctrine is somewhat different from what some teach today is irrelevant. Add to this the fact that you have clearly demonstrated that you have very little understanding of what modern pre-trib leaders teach.

Your whole thesis is falling apart. None of these ECFs held to Pretrib. Jesuit priest Emmanuel Lacunza formulated it, Irvine translated it, Darby modified it.