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Pretrib Discussion

sovereigngrace

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I also know about scrolls dating 300-400ad that talked about "caught up" before the great tribulation. So it was talked about preached about WAY before 1830. This does not prove anything. And there are many books about this saying how it didn't start with Darby. Looking at some right now.

Biblewriter made the same claim a few days ago, and we are still waiting on the evidence. The ancient teacher that Pretribbers try to claim over this past 10 years is Pseudo-Ephraem. Not only was he not Pretrib, he was also not a Premil. Not one of the Syrian early church fathers were Premillennial. Pretribber swallow what their teachers tell them without even doing the research.

Without reading the context of one quote they will never understand Pseudo-Ephraem. He makes a statement about the tribulation of God being poured out on the wicked. For the Pretribber they automatically think '7-years trib after a rapture of the Church'. But such a concept was unknown until Pretrib around 1826-1830. That statements simply refers to the wrath of God destroying all the wicked when Jesus comes. He was a classic Syrian Amil.
 
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Biblewriter

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This will be an interesting discussion and we all can learn if we do it properly.

I'm thinking Biblewriter should set the narrative, and we cover our material together.
There is one poster here who has no intention of doing this properly. His only interest is in attacking futurism in general and pre-trib in particular. He will continue to produce inane posts that mean nothing, as if they were significant arguments.
 
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Biblewriter

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Maybe you can help out by showing them the alternative view to these scriptures. Many of our Dispensational brothers and sisters know nothing about the amillennial view and have been raised on The Scofield Bible. Go ahead, give it a whirl. If you don't, I may?
Blessings.
We are quite familiar with the Amillennial view. It is based on simply assuming that the many explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible do not mean what they so very clearly say.
 
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Biblewriter

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You are going to have to listen better. LOL. I was a Pretribber for many years and heard it preached from the rooftops. As a Pastor, I here Pretribbers advance it often. I have also engaged with Pretribbers on line since 2000 and it continually comes up. The 3rd post on this thread even threw it us as evidence of your doctrine. Other Pretribbers on this board have done similar on other threads.
The future seven years is clearly presented in Daniel 9. But if you have imagined that pre-tribbers teach that the rapture is in Daniel 9, you have never even begun to understand the doctrine, even if you once believed in pre-trib.
 
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Biblewriter

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The best way to approach eschatology is to first do an exhaustive study on what has been fulfilled without using any study Bible filled with footnotes that are not inspired by God. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth and we must put our trust in this. It takes bravery as one needs to put away all theological influences.
Be blessed.
Actually, there is a relatively small part of Bible prophecy that has been fulfilled. Many people search exhaustively for historical events that bear some slight resemblance to some prophecy, and claim that these events were fulfillments of these prophecies. But have studied many of these claims in detail, I have found that, in almost every case, something on the order of eighty to ninety percent of the details contained in the prophecy they cite are either missing from or contrary to the details contained in the historic accounts that they cite.

A prophecy has not been fulfilled until every detail contained in that prophecy has been fulfilled.

A typical example of this is Daniel 11. Beginning in verse 2, this chapter contains a long and detailed account of coming events. Up through the middle of verse 35, every detail of this account was precisely fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But then verse 35 ends with the words "until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time." And history contains no records whatsoever of any events which correspond to anything in the rest of this chapter.

Yes, I am aware that "scholars" claim that the last part of this prophecy has been fulfilled. But their alleged "fulfillments" all have the same problems I outlined above. he hard truth is, that up through the middle of verse 35, everything in thes prophecy was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. And after the words "until the time of the end," none of it has been fulfilled.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The future seven years is clearly presented in Daniel 9. But if you have imagined that pre-tribbers teach that the rapture is in Daniel 9, you have never even begun to understand the doctrine, even if you once believed in pre-trib.

So Daniel 9 is not a rapture passage. Where is even your 3rd coming to the earth in chapter?
 
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sovereigngrace

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We are quite familiar with the Amillennial view. It is based on simply assuming that the many explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible do not mean what they so very clearly say.

And you are open and objective? I don't think so! You have no interest in exploring this matter because to do so would mean accepting that Pretrib has no proof-texts in Scripture. So far you have brought nothing to the table that we can examine.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Actually, there is a relatively small part of Bible prophecy that has been fulfilled. Many people search exhaustively for historical events that bear some slight resemblance to some prophecy, and claim that these events were fulfillments of these prophecies. But have studied many of these claims in detail, I have found that, in almost every case, something on the order of eighty to ninety percent of the details contained in the prophecy they cite are either missing from or contrary to the details contained in the historic accounts that they cite.

A prophecy has not been fulfilled until every detail contained in that prophecy has been fulfilled.

A typical example of this is Daniel 11. Beginning in verse 2, this chapter contains a long and detailed account of coming events. Up through the middle of verse 35, every detail of this account was precisely fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. But then verse 35 ends with the words "until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time." And history contains no records whatsoever of any events which correspond to anything in the rest of this chapter.

Yes, I am aware that "scholars" claim that the last part of this prophecy has been fulfilled. But their alleged "fulfillments" all have the same problems I outlined above. he hard truth is, that up through the middle of verse 35, everything in thes prophecy was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. And after the words "until the time of the end," none of it has been fulfilled.

Many Christians today are under the false apprehension that the period commonly referred to as ‘the last days’ is yet a future period of time preceding the Lord’s return and in particular the last seven years of this age. This ‘seven-year theory’ was first introduced to the Church by a Brethren teacher called Darby in the 1830’s and has become popular in many circles today.

Whilst, it is understandable for believers to view a future period of time as ‘the last days’ it must always be remembered that the biblical period referred to as ‘the last days’ relates to the period between the first and second advents.

Because Pretribbers have the mindset that "the time of the end" and "last days" are some man-made 7-years trib after the rapture (that they cannot prove anywhere), they fail to grasp these phrases belong to the intra-Advent period.

Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the ‘last days’. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Christ … was manifest in these last times for you.”

The ‘last days’ commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ and will terminate with His glorious Second Coming. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin.”

In Acts 2:16-21 Peter shows that the last days were active and ongoing at Pentecost, saying, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

John testified in I John 2:18 that he was actually in the last days: Little children, it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “the ends of the world are come.”

Speaking of his day, James 5:1-3 says, Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.”

Most Old Testament prophecy seen its beginning and/or realisation in the days of the earthly ministry of Christ (which was John’s day) and will see its final conclusion with the visible Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There is one poster here who has no intention of doing this properly. His only interest is in attacking futurism in general and pre-trib in particular. He will continue to produce inane posts that mean nothing, as if they were significant arguments.

This is the normal Pretrib tactic when they cannot address the message – attack the messenger.
 
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Charlie24

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And you are open and objective? I don't think so! You have no interest in exploring this matter because to do so would mean accepting that Pretrib has no proof-texts in Scripture. So far you have brought nothing to the table that we can examine.
How can the pre-trib debate even get started when we can't even establish a trib?

Your doctrine kills the argument before it can begin.

It's not BW, it's you! BW and I can't discuss anything for your constant posts killing the conversation. You are overbearing with your view
This is the normal Pretrib tactic when they cannot address the message – attack the messenger.
If you see it in your face you will deny it as all do from your camp.

You are overbearing with your view and will not allow anyone else to establish anything other that your view. It's a discussion killer!

Do you see why we ignore you? We have no choice.

Charlie24 over and out!
 
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sovereigngrace

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How can the pre-trib debate even get started when we can't even establish a trib?

Your doctrine kills the argument before it can begin.

It's not BW, it's you! BW and I can't discuss anything for your constant posts killing the conversation. You are overbearing with your view

If you see it in your face you will deny it as all do from your camp.

You are overbearing with your view and will not allow anyone else to establish anything other that your view. It's a discussion killer!

Do you see why we ignore you? We have no choice.

Charlie24 over and out!

Believe me, if there were proof-texts there to prove Pretrib, it would have been brought to the table before now. The burden of proof is with you! I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist.

Tribulation is written all over the NT. It began after the cross and will continue until Jesus comes. Let us look at the words of Jesus in John 16:33. He declared, In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

The tribulation that Satan pours out on the Church in the intra-Advent period is completely different from the wrath God pours out on the wicked on the final day. There are 2 completely diverse protagonists and 2 completely diverse recipients.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The word translated "narrow" in our King James Version here is the Greek word thlibo, which elsewhere in Scripture carries the meaning of afflicted, suffering, tribulation and troubled. So, when the passage says “narrow is the way” we could rightly interpret it “tribulation is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” This is the norm for a Christian. The true blood-bought member of the redeemed Church enters tribulation through salvation. This is an ongoing reality, not a future hope as you suggest.

Tribulation goes with the territory of being a real genuine Christian.It should not be strange!

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

Jesus said in John 15:18-20, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Acts 14:22 says, we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Paul testified in 1 Thessalonians 3:4: “we told you before that we should suffer tribulation.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer."

II Corinthians 4:8-10 says, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake."

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified."

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"
 
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Maria Billingsley

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We are quite familiar with the Amillennial view. It is based on simply assuming that the many explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible do not mean what they so very clearly say.
Hmm and I thought we were going to have a thoughtful conversation with proof text? The alternative view is not ignorant to facts clearly stated in scripture. As a matter of fact,we had good company sharing the same view with all the early Fathers and Christians for centuries until the mid 19th century. It takes great courage to break out of Dispensational Premillennialism (DP), as it is entrench in seminaries through the Scofield Bible and many have no chance to make their own decision on the matter. If we can at the very least stay with the facts, we may get somewhere. I will address the next post.
 
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Biblewriter

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Hmm and I thought we were going to have a thoughtful conversation with proof text? The alternative view is not ignorant to facts clearly stated in scripture. As a matter of fact,we had good company sharing the same view with all the early Fathers and Christians for centuries until the mid 19th century. It takes great courage to break out of Dispensational Premillennialism (DP), as it is entrench in seminaries through the Scofield Bible and many have no chance to make their own decision on the matter. If we can at the very least stay with the facts, we may get somewhere. I will address the next post.
Actually, Amillenialism was not taught by even one early Christian writer who wrote before the third century and whose works have been preserved. And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome called fututism "the standard interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church." This statement was not technically correct. but what he meant was that he did not consider the few Amilennialists before that time as actual Christian writers. And indeed all but one Amil writer previous to Jerome that I personally know about was originally conbemned as a heretic.

But your claim that "The alternative view is not ignorant to facts clearly stated in scripture." Is playing fast and loose with the actual texts of scripture. For the scriptures clearly describe the coming golden age on this earth, using explicit statements that are so unequivocal that there is absolutely no way around them except to claim that these scriptures do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

And concerning the claims of both Historicism and Preterism, As I said, I have reviewed MANY of their claims that such-and-such a historical event was a fulfillment of such-and-such a prophecy. And almost ALL of these claims involved cases in which MOST of the details contained in the prophecy in question were either completely missing from or directly contrary to the details contained in the historical accounts in question.
 
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Biblewriter

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And you are open and objective? I don't think so! You have no interest in exploring this matter because to do so would mean accepting that Pretrib has no proof-texts in Scripture. So far you have brought nothing to the table that we can examine.
Actually, I have posed extensivey on the subject, right here in this venue.But yor constant barrage of inane questions makes rational discussion nearly impossible.
 
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Biblewriter

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Here is a section quoted from pages 82 to 87 of my book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy."

The rapture of the church

For Christians of the present time, all other prophetic events pale into nothingness beside this one great event, which the scriptures speak of in numerous places.

Jesus spoke of it, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)

But we also read, “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?

The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of.

Some imagine that this only means "out of" after being "in" the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is translated from the Greek word tereo. (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tereo occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.”

(To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a part of the same time period. The Lord said to Israel and Judah, “Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:6-7) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’. (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through a time of trouble designed for themselves. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.)

But what is this “the hour of trial” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary - Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.) But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated "to test" is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light.

But we are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” The Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 says the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.

(continued)
 
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Biblewriter

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(continued from post 55)

We see this again in a passage about Noah and Lot. “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4-9)

Here the Holy Spirit gives us two specific examples, Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, He said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9)

Thus the Holy Spirit showed His intention to “deliver the godly out of temptations” by physically removing them from the scene “of temptations” before they take place, just as He did for Noah and Lot. The Greek word here translated from is the same ek used in Revelation 3:10, which, as we saw, normally means "from" in the sense of "away from" or "out of." And the Greek word translated temptations is peirasmon, the same word that, as we saw, was used in Revelation 3:10. There are no accidents in the precise wording of scripture. The fact that the Holy Spirit used these same two words in these two parallel passages is highly significant.

Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) In this scripture the Holy Spirit first clearly identified the restrainer as a personality by calling him He. Then He said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible individual could be so obvious he did not need to be named.

We are told that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

This event has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the Holy Spirit will be with the saints of God forever, so He cannot be “taken out of the way” either before or after the saints of God are removed from this earth.

It is therefore plain that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” at the same time the Saints of God will be “caught up... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But it is only after that happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) So this scripture, which shows that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed thereby shows that the rapture has to take place before that time.

We see this again in the parable of the ten virgins, where we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see “those who were ready” taken into the wedding while “the other virgins” are held outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. The fact that the door remains closed for those that were not “ready” is highlighted in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, where we are told that “they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” But we need to remember that this is after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” That is, at the time of the rapture.

So it is simply untrue to claim that the pre-trib rapture is not taught in scripture.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Actually, Amillenialism was not taught by even one early Christian writer who wrote before the third century and whose works have been preserved. And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome called fututism "the standard interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church." This statement was not technically correct. but what he meant was that he did not consider the few Amilennialists before that time as actual Christian writers.

But your claim that "The alternative view is not ignorant to facts clearly stated in scripture." Is playing fast and loose with the actual texts of scripture. For the scriptures clearly describe the coming golden age on this earth, using explicit statements that are so unequivocal that there is absolutely no way around them except to claim that these scriptures do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

And concerning the claims of both Historicism and Preterism, As I said, I have reviewed MANY of their claims that such-and-such a historical event was a fulfillment of such-and-such a prophecy. And almost ALL of these claims involved cases in which MOST of the details contained in the prophecy in question were either completely missing from or directly contrary to the details contained in the historical accounts in question.

Really? Where is your evidence? You make these sweeping claims about history and Scripture and never prove them. The reason is, is because they are untrue. Most of the ECFs were Amil.

And indeed all but one Amil writer previous to Jerome that I personally know about was originally conbemned as a heretic.

Where do you get this? Who condemned them? Irenaeus?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Actually, Amillenialism was not taught by even one early Christian writer who wrote before the third century and whose works have been preserved. And even as late as the fifth century, Jerome called fututism "the standard interpretation of all the writers of the Christian church." This statement was not technically correct. but what he meant was that he did not consider the few Amilennialists before that time as actual Christian writers. And indeed all but one Amil writer previous to Jerome that I personally know about was originally conbemned as a heretic.

But your claim that "The alternative view is not ignorant to facts clearly stated in scripture." Is playing fast and loose with the actual texts of scripture. For the scriptures clearly describe the coming golden age on this earth, using explicit statements that are so unequivocal that there is absolutely no way around them except to claim that these scriptures do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

And concerning the claims of both Historicism and Preterism, As I said, I have reviewed MANY of their claims that such-and-such a historical event was a fulfillment of such-and-such a prophecy. And almost ALL of these claims involved cases in which MOST of the details contained in the prophecy in question were either completely missing from or directly contrary to the details contained in the historical accounts in question.

OK then! Let us see the evidence. Can you show us one single early church fathers who taught (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?
 
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Biblewriter

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Here is another extract, quoted from pages 89-103 of my book "Ancient Dispensational Truth."


Ancient Teaching of a Rapture
Before the Great Tribulation

It has been widely claimed that the doctrine of a rapture before the tribulation could not be correct because it had never been taught before the 1800s. And these people contend that anything the church never taught in its first eighteen centuries, could not be correct.

This is false on two fronts. First, We read “I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.” (Psalm 119:99) This, actually, should be true of every generation, for when we have learned everything our teachers can teach us, our studies are not completed. Rather, our real studies are just now ready to begin. For we start with the knowledge set before us, and build up from there, using meditation upon God’s testimonies. So whoever first taught a given doctrine, or how long it has been taught, are immaterial. The only thing that counts is whether or not the scriptures teach it.

But this claim has another error. And that is that it simply is not correct. On page 178 of his book, “Dispensationalism before Darby.” William C. Watson listed about two dozen writers who, in the 1600s and 1700s, taught a rapture significantly before the Lord returns to judge the world for its wickedness. But all of these were late comers. For the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation was taught, and sometimes very clearly taught, in ancient times, as we shall see in this chapter.

We need to be aware of one detail to actually understand the following quotations from these ancient writers, and why they were actually teaching a rapture before the great tribulation, even though their writings included comments about “the church” suffering persecution under the Antichrist.

If we carefully examine all their writings, they always give the time of the Antichrist as three and a half years, which they call the “great tribulation,” as you will see below. This writer has not found even one exception to this rule. These same ancients clearly taught that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future. But they only foresaw the great tribulation as the last half of this week. So, as will become evident below, they only taught that the tribulation would last three and a half years, or a half week, instead of seven years, as is commonly taught today. Thus, from their viewpoint, their position was truly pre-tribulational, because they taught a rapture before the “great tribulation.” But what they taught was actually what today would be called a mid-tribulation rapture.

The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to our day is the last twelve chapters of “Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus. (There were older such commentaries, but all of them were either only short comments in articles about other subjects, or have been lost.) This is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D., and says:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. But Irenaeus also wrote:

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1.)

Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” On the surface, this would seem to flatly contradict his other statement. But this is not the case. First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4.)

Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

“‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1.)

This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other than the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

“But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1.)

These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

“For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2.)

We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

“Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3.)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4.)

We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.” And in these statements, he changed the words “the church,” or “we,” to “the saints.”

Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and at the moment when “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after this, that is, after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him.” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

“These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2.)

Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2.)

Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

“Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1.)

In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least at approximately the same time as He comes.

So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’

(continued)
 
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(continued from post 59)


We come now to Victorinus, who is thought to have written the following sometime around the year 240 A.D.

Commentary on the Apocalypse 6:14:

“ ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.’ ‘And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

We need to notice here that Victorinus did not make these clauses active, saying “the church shall go away,” or “the good will flee.” Instead these clauses are both in the passive, that the church “shall be taken away,” and that the good “will be removed.” So this is not, as some allege, a statement that the church will flee out of society, hiding in wilderness places.

Again, Victorinus said:

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15:1:

“ ‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’ For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

This, being in the active, could refer to flight. But when taken in connection to the previous statement, we see that this was not what Victorinus was saying.

And some will protest that these are not truly the words of Victorinus. For they are different in the version presented in “The Early Church Fathers, Ante-Nicene Fathers,” volume 7. These protestors think that Victorinus was Amillennial, and that thus his comments could not have contained these words. But these people are unaware that the copy reproduced in “the Early Church Fathers” is not the actual document written by Victorinus, but a rewritten version produced by Jerome. Jerome’s own statement concerning his revision of this work is found in his letter to Anatolius, which is in the prologue to his revision of the Commentary on the Apocalypse by Victorinus. In this letter, Jerome said:

“Those crossing over the perilous seas find different dangers. If a storm of winds has become violent, it is a terror; if the moderate air has calmed the back of the elements, lying calm, they fear traps. Thus is seen in this book which you have sent to me, which is seen to contain the explanation of the Apocalypse by Victorinus. Also, it is dangerous, and opens to the barkings of detractors, to judge the short works of eminent men. For even earlier Papias, the bishop of Hierapolis, and Nepos, the bishop of parts of Egypt, perceived of the kingdom of the thousand years just as Victorinus. And because you are in your letters entreating me, I do not want to delay, but nor do I want to scorn praying. I immediately unwound the books of the greats, and what I found in their commentaries about the kingdom of the thousand years, I added to the little work of Victorinus, erasing from there those things which he perceived according to the letter.
“From the beginning of the book to the sign of the cross, we have corrected things which are the corruptions of inexperience of scribes. Know that from there to the end of the book is added. Now it is yours to judge, and to confirm what pleases. If our life will be made longer and the Lord will give health, for you, our most capable genius will sweat over this book, dearest Anatolius.”

Both the original text by Victorinus, and the prologue by Jerome, can be read in their entirety at either:
Victorinus, In Apocalypsin – biblicalia
or:
St. Victorinus of Petau  |  Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism  |   The Preterist Archive www.preteristarchive.com,reformed,partial,orthodoxy,orthodox,futurist,preterism,historicism,fulfillment,apocalypse

So Victorinus indeed taught “that the Church shall be taken away,” and that “the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution.” And that in the last time “the church shall have gone out of the midst.” This most certainly seems to be a teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.

(cotinued)
 
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