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Preterists: Did anyone SEE Jesus come again?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 24, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Sorry, I don't read the greek alphabet, but if you could post the greek words using english letters, I would be able research the passage to examine your claims.

    Unless you feel leaving me in the dark protects your argument somehow.

    Again, you posted an english translation of the LXX, which must have been translated post AD70, and likely by a futurist.

    For some reason, It appears you don't want me to know who is responsible for the english translation and when they translated it.


    Hmmmm........ (disagreeable noise)
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    P70,
    According to you, Isaiah 34 is supposed to depict God destroying the nation of Edom, at or near the time of Isaiah, and using “universal” terms, similar to “all the heavens and earth”, etc., thereby supposedly proving that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is not literal, but symbolic of the Jewish religion, society, etc., etc.

    There is not one single verse in the entire O.T., which is remotely similar to 2 Peter 3, and which can prove that 2 peter 3 does not mean exactly and precisely what it clearly states.

    • 2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
      11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
      12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
      13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    So, we will let scripture interpret scripture and examine Isaiah 34, verse by verse, and see if the assertions are correct.

    The first observation, 2 Peter 3 can be distinguished from Isaiah 34 by the absence of any local reference, in 2 Peter, which could suggest or imply it has an immediate, localized application.

    Note in Isaiah 34, the first verse a clear distinction between “nations” and “people” and “world” and “earth” It is clear that “earth” and “world”, in this passage does not mean people, systems, “economy”, etc.

    Vs. 2, judgment against, “all the nations” and “all their hosts (armies)”, not just Edom. Not only is there no scriptural record of this happening, at or near the time of Isaiah, John in Revelation, written about 90 AD, 20 years +/- after Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, shows it to still be in the future. Throughout Isaiah 34, the future tense is used at least 39 times.

    • Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear, and attend, ye peoples; let the earth hear, and the fulness thereof, the world, and all things that come forth of it.
      2 For the LORD hath indignation against all the nations, and fury against all their host; He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.
      3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
      4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
    Compare Isaiah 34:4 to Revelation 6:13-14, below. John quotes Isaiah 34:4, almost word for word, and it is yet in the future, not something which occurred 700+ years before, in the time of Isaiah, or 20 years +/-, before, when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, i.e. the end of the Jewish “world”, according to you. Note, also Isaiah does not say that the “heavens” shall be dissolved” but the “host of heaven.” Big difference!

    All passages quoted from Revelation are future, things which must be hereafter., i.e. after John wrote Revelation, ca. 90 AD.

    • Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

      Re 6:13 And the stars [hosts] of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
      4 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    These two verses, Rev 6:13-14, clearly referring to Isaiah 34:4, establish the connection between Isaiah 34 and the end times prophesied by John, beyond any doubt. John is not speaking of the destruction of Edom, in the time of Isaiah, or the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, in 70 AD.

    • Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
    Judgment against, not only Edom/Idumea but also, “all” people under God’s curse. The Targum, the Aramaic translations of the O.T., written while the Israelites were captive in Babylon, states,

    • “because my sword is revealed in heaven; behold, upon Edom it is revealed, and upon the people whom I have condemned to judgment.”

      =====================

      Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
      7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
    The events of Isa 34:6-7 still future for John, ca. 90 AD.

    • Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
      15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
      21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

      “Targum,
      “and the mighty shall be slain with them.”

      R. Abraham Seba says {n} he read in a certain book, that the word here should not be read
      ראמים, "unicorns", but רומיים/”[romiyim]”, “the Romans shall come down", &c.:”

      Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

      ======================

      Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
    Isaiah 34:, Vs. 8 still in the future for John, ca. 90 AD, not 700+ years BC.

    • Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
      Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

      =======================

      Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

      “The Targum [Pre-Christian Aramaic translation of the O.T.] is express,
      “the rivers of Rome shall be turned into pitch;
      ”
    Isa 34, Vs. 9 still in the future for John, ca. 90 AD, not 20 years +/-, before when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

    • Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

      Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    • Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
    Isa 34:Vs. 10 still in the future, for John, ca. 90 AD. When did Edom ever, “lie waste; [and] none shall pass through it for ever and ever.?”

    • Re 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

      Re 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

      ======================

      Isa 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
    All the birds listed, in vs. 11, are “unclean”. Isa 34:11, still in the future for John, ca. 20 years after Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.

    • Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

      ======================

      Isa 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
      13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
    Isa 34:12, still future for John, ca. 90 AD.

    • Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

      Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

      Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

      ======================

      Isa 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
      15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
      16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
      17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

      “Jarchi, out of the Derash, [Talmud] has this note,

      “this is the curse of Moses; the war of the Lord against Amalek, from generation to generation; from the generation of Moses to the generation of Saul; from thence to the generation of Mordecai; and from thence to the generation of the King Messiah
    Earlier you made a derogatory, uniformed, comment about Christians, I think you referred to us as Futurists, being hopeless. A complete and utter falsehood, straight from the pits of Satan. I, as all Christians, share the absolute certainty expressed by Job, 1000+ years before, even, the time of Moses.

    Note, that God is Job’s kinsman redeemer and He will “appear”, i.e. stand, upon the earth in the latter days, not 66-67 AD.

    • (KJV) Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
      26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
      27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


      (NIV)Job 19: 25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
      26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
      27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!


      01350 גאל ga’al gaw-al’
      a primitive root; TWOT - 300; v
      1) to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman
    Who is our kinsman redeemer and, according to Job, when will He appear?


    • Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

      T1tus 2:14 [Jesus] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

      Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

      1 Pet 1:19 But [redeemed] with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    Therefore, since there are no credible, “accurately interpreted,” O.T. “proof texts” which speak of a destruction of a localized area of the ancient near east in universal terms, such as “all the heavens and the earth”, 2 Peter 3 must be interpreted in its natural and logical sense. It is most certainly a prophecy of the end of the world when the heavens and the earth will be destroyed by fire.

    • 2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Revelation 21:1 interprets 2 Pet 3:13, i.e. scripture interprets scripture. The new heaven and the new earth of 2 Peter is still in the future for John writing 20 years +/- after Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed and the Jewish “world” done away with.


    • 2 Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

      Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 Peter cannot be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, in 70 AD. No local reference to indicate that this passage means anything other than the clear, plain sense meaning.
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    If this wasn't so pathetic it would be funny. I read both Biblical languages and you presume to correct my interpretation of the scriptures but you can't read the Biblical languages. Therefore, you must rely on an English translation, which is probably translated by a Preterist and slanted to favor his/your view and since you don't know the languages you have to accept whatever is there, right or wrong. So sad.

    Your question is irrelevant. I have posted both the English and the Greek. Here is the relevant question. Not when and who. But is the English translation of the LXX correct and does it accurately convey the meaning of the original Greek. Since the LXX contradicts your false teaching, I guess you will have to go back to your Guru to get a credible response.
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    "Jehovah is often described as "riding a cloud" personally and visibly, when the reality was, human armies were the temporal means He used to accomplish the task." I would be most interested in you backing up this assertion with scripture. In the meantime I will not hold my breath. The plural clouds occurs in the O.T. 41 times. How many times does "clouds" refer to armies?

    Why you keep posting nonsense about "polar opposites" when You haven't proven it even one time is beyond me.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Old Shepherd,

    I just posted this elsewhere, but it seems to answer your recent post as well...

    It seems to me that many are misunderstanding these apocalypse phrases as they are biblically used. Many emphasize that he will be "seen coming with clouds" as stated in Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. But notice that this very event is described in Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a heavenly event and no earthly one. Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. John is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead, but of an event in the heavenly realms.

    Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses were always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:

    *Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16)

    *Yahweh came down and shot his arrows, was seen over Greece, and blew His trumpet (Zechariah 9:13-16);

    *Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2);

    *Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10);

    *Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5);

    *Yahweh destroyed the cosmos when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).


    This is how the prophets spoke of God's powerful judgments in history. So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).
     
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Old Shepherd,

    You have made a common mistake concerning Job 19:25-27.

    Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; Job 30:30) and at the end of the story Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

    Job's hope was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him. (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Job stated by faith that even once the burning boils had removed his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened at the end of the book.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    OS,

    I posted this as an answer to a similar question of yours in another thread, but I'll go ahead and  past it here as well.

    Psalms 104:3
    He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind.

    Isaiah 19:1
    The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

    OS, This passage was fulfilled when the Assyrians invaded Egypt, although it is prophetically described as "God riding a swift Cloud"

    Are you arguing that God actually rode a literal cloud into Egypt with the Assyrians? Can you prove anyone saw Him riding that cloud?

    Psalm 18:7-14 and Joel 2:1-2 also speak of cloud comings.

    Or How about 2 samuel 22:1-51?
    This is David's grand tribute of thanksgiving for deliverance from his numerous and powerful enemies, and establishing him in the power and glory of the kingdom.
    Notice the language that is used:

    7 In my distress I called upon the Lord, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears. 8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry. 9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet. 11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And HE WAS SEEN upon the wings of the wind. 12 He made darkness canopies around Him, Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 13 From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled. 14 "The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. 15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them. "

    Are you arguing that God's actual nostrils were smoking?
    Are you arguing that God was seen on the wings of the wind?
    Are you arguing the wind has wings?
    Are you arguing that God personally sent actual arrows and actual lightning bolts that vanquished Davids enemies?

    Youy must be, for your stated hermeneutic demands it.

    Lastly (for now) Isaiah 52:10a
    "The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations"

    Do you believe this actually happened? you must for the Bible says it did, but where is any Historical evidence of every nation on earth witnessing with their eyes Gods actual "arm"?
    Surely such a monumental global event of Gods actual arm being seen by every eye of every nation would have been recorded in History somewhere yes?
    Why don't you go ahead and explain to our readers where the Bible teaches you to interprate the event of God being seen by the "eyes of all nations" in polar opposite fashion to the event of Christ that "Every eye shall see"?

    The "Cloud Coming of Christ in Judgement" in the NT can not be properly understood when one chooses to reject the precedent meaning of all past OT "Cloud Comings of of the Lord in Judgement", as you appear to be doing.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Old Shepheard,
    I noticed you have put strong emphasis on the "tense" used by the prophets and the apostles, claiming it all future.

    In anticipation of perhaps your next request from me to prove that the "Day of the lord" was ever spoken of in the "Past" tense, I have taken the initiative to post an example of where the Bible prophesies a "day of the Lord" event, then later confirms that particular "Day of the Lord" took place.

    The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:

    Lamentations 1:12
    behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
    Lamentations 2:1
    How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger

    Lamentations 2:21
    The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.

    Lamentations 2:22
    Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained

    ***Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of course not. This is how the prophets spoke.

    Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:

    Ezekiel 7:19
    They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

    And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

    Ezekiel 13:2-5
    Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

    The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."

    Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7

    The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.


    OS, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in scripture. The prophets speak of Jehovah who comes down and does a whole host of "physical" things. Yet did any one SEE Yahweh do these things? Was Zephaniah lying? This scripture goes on all the way to the end of Zephaniah chapter two, and be sure to note that the judgments that ensue upon the other surrounding nations are also a past Day of Yahweh event (1:14; 2:2-3).

    So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one example of MANY past day of the LORD events.

    The N.T. teaches that Christ's return was to be a "Day of Yahweh" event. This perfectly coincides with AD 67-70, which was the greatest Day of the Lord in history.

    Jesus wielded Rome's powers as Jehovah had wielded the powers and kings of Babylon and Persia as his own anointed servants (Jer 25:9; Isa 44:28-45:13). That's how the Day of the Lord judgments work. Rome continued so that the Church would over take it as the stone of Daniel 2 that became a giant mountain over the whole earth. The pagan Roman Empire was destroyed.

    John's own interpretation of Rev 1:7's cloud-coming is found in Rev 14:14-20! No one can deny that the Rev 14:14-20 passage shows a coming in the heavenly realms which brings disasters upon earth--it is not an incarnational event. Rather, this perfectly depicts the way the Father came in O.T. times--in power and great glory. As Jesus promised, he was to come "in the glory of the Father." Furthermore, Jesus said that when his future kingdom came, no one would be able to point to it and say "look here it is, or look there it is" (Luke 17:20-21). Since "the kingdom does not come in an observable fashion" (Luke 17:20-21), and since Christ was to come "in his kingdom" (Mt 16:27-28 ), it follows by logical necessity that Christ's coming was not observable. Rather, it was a "Day of the Lord event (i.e., in the heavenly realms with great disasters and wrath poured out upon nations and people).

    The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible. Jesus had promised that he was to come "in the glory of the Father.

    The great and terrible Day of the Lord struck at the headquarters of opposition. Apostate Jerusalem, a.k.a. the great city Mystery Babylon (Rev 14:8/11:8 ), was responsible for the persecution of Christ and the apostles and prophets. They used the power of Rome to persecute the Church worldwide after killing Christ himself. For that, all of the blood shed on the earth from Able unto the time of Christ was to be avenged upon their generation according to Matt 23:31-36. All torah-observant, Christ-rejecting Jews in the Roman Empire were destroyed in Jerusalem in that great wrath of AD 67-70. The judgment came at that time (1 Peter 4:17; cf Jn 12:31), for the end of all things was then at hand (1 Peter 4:7; 2 Tim 4:1)--the end of the age had come.

    Furthermore, the vengeance of God in those last days (Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3; Acts 2:15-17) had worldwide impact. A last-days famine hit the whole empire (Acts 11:28 ), God was striking down kings (Acts 12:20-23) as well as the emperor-gods (Nero, Galba, etc), Rome burned, and the world Temple of Jupiter was destroyed in AD 69. That Day of the Lord, the greatest of all those before it, did come upon the whole world as prophesied. Christ's Church emerged victorious and has become the greatest empire known to mankind.

    If one understands what the Day of the Lord was, and if one is very familiar with the many historic Day-of-the-Lord judgments that transpired in Old Testament times, then one quickly understands that the second coming was, by nature, to be a Day of the Lord event just like those in O.T. times. The preterist view is entirely consistent with the Old Testament in understanding AD 67-70 as not only a "Day of the Lord," but the greatest of all those that had ever been.
     
  10. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    False! You have not posted the same phrase in the O.T. and the N.T. All you have done is posted and misused your trite little buzz word "polar opposite"
     
  11. OldShepherd

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    [dd]First, post the scriptures, when you make an assertion! Support your own point, I don’t have time to look up my scripture references and yours too. Where did the Assyrians supposedly invade Egypt and fulfill Isaiah 19:1? But it is irrelevant. Once again you are blindly cutting and pasting an argument without bothering to read the scripture for yourself.

    [dd]God did not say He was going to attack Egypt riding on a cloud. Once again you quoted only part of the passage. The very next verse, God tells how He will melt the heart of Egypt. It is not Assyrians and it is not God riding on the clouds.

    • Isa 19:2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Old Shepheard,

    Is it your assertion then, that Isaiah's burden against Egypt in Isaiah 19 reamins unfulfilled to this day?

    Are you asserting that God has not yet "Rode a swift could into Egypt" and Egypts Idols have yet to "totter in His presence", but  this passage awaits a future fulfillment?

    Also, revisiting one of my previous questions you have yet to answer, Do you indeed believe Jesus never prophesied the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem? 

      If you believe He in fact did prophesy that event, please adhere, if you can, to your own requirements of me, and list the verses you believe prophesied the event(s) of AD70, and then go ahead and list where the Bible records their fulfillment. 

    Lets see if you can pass your own "Litmus" test shall we?

    Thanks.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Isaiah 20, of course. 


           
    Every published, scholarly commentary I have found on this pasage, disagrees with you in one way or another.

    For Example, Jamieson, Fausset & Brown's commentary of Isaiah 19 says this:

    "In Isaiah 19:1, the invasion of Egypt is represented as caused by "the Lord"; and in Isaiah 19:7, "Judah" is spoken of as "a terror to Egypt," which it could hardly have been by itself.  Therefore, the Assyrian invasion of Egypt under Sargon, when Judah was the ally of Assyria, and Hezekiah had not yet refused tribute as he did in the beginning of Sennacherib's reign, is meant. That Assyria was in Isaiah's mind appears from the way in which it is joined with Israel and Egypt in the worship of Jehovah. Thus the dissensions referred to allude to the time of the withdrawal of the Ethiopians from Lower Egypt, probably not without a struggle, especially between 722-715 B.C., answering to 718 B.C., when Sethos usurped the throne and entered on the contest with the military caste, by the aid of the town populations: when the Saitic dynasty was another cause of division. Sargon's reign was between 722-715 B.C. answering to 718 B.C., when Sethos usurped his throne.

    Please explain to our readers why we should throw out the above commentary as incorrect.

    PS, Don't forget to provide your alternative..... You do have one don't you?

    I mean, how could you be so sure the above is incorrect if you are unable to come up with a viable alternative?
     
  14. OldShepherd

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    And what exactly is your point here? Because John has a vision of a heavenly event that every other passage in the scripture is also a heavenly event, or what exactly? Just because one or more events can clearly be shown to be figurative, allegorical, symbolical, etc. does not prove that any other event is.
    Always? Pillar of smoke, pillar of fire, burning bush, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., etc., etc.
    I do not have time to research your scriptures and mine too. But here are a few.
    • 2 Sam 22:8-16. The arrows the scriptures speak of are lightning bolts. Hebrew parallelism. Check it out.
    • Isa 19:1-2, already answered, Yes, I know you responded with a commentary or two. The opinions of scholars is not “proof.” That is the logical fallacy of equivocation.
    • Isaiah 52.10. Are you saying Isaiah is a liar? Let us assume that this is a figure of speech. Does that, in and of itself, “prove” that any other passage in the Bible is also a figure of speech?
    • Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5. Moses said it happened. Are you calling Moses a liar. Are you saying that God is not capable of doing this? Along with the previous verse, what “proof” do you offer that it did not happen?
    ”Yahweh destroyed the cosmos when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).”

    If you tried real hard I’m sure you could accurately quote something, anything. Let’s review these two passages and see if they support your presumptions, and assumptions. According to your version the cosmos and the heavens are destroyed, vs. 23. It doesn’t the say earth was destroyed but “without form and void” and the heavens were also not destroyed but “had no light.” And not only does the passage not say “destroyed” but God says specifically that He will not destroy. Vs. 27, “yet will I not make a full end.”

    • Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
      24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
      25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
      26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
      27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
      28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
    Now the other passage, does it say that God destroyed the cosmos as you allege? No, once again a false quote. It says the heavens would be dark, not destroyed, and God said He would bring destruction “among” and "into" the nations, i.e. non-Jews, not that He would destroy the cosmos. Unless you want to claim that “cover the sun with a cloud”, vs. 32:7, means destroy the cosmos?

    So far in this pre-T discussion not one single verse of scripture says what pre-Ts claim it does. I wonder if that is why they are so reluctant to actually post the verses they refer to?

    • Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
      8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
      9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.
     
  15. OldShepherd

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    [dd]Do you happen to read Hebrew? The other guy didn't. When people start telling me I made a mistake interpreting the Bible, then I expect to see some Biblical scholarship. For example you refer to גאל as "vindicator". I posted the definition of that word. "Vindicator" is NOT one of those definitions. The word "vindicate", in any of its forms, does not occur in the O.T. The most common definitions of "Ga'el"are "avenger of blood" and "kinsman redeemer".

    [dd]"
    at the end of the story Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen" This seems reasonable but is that what the book of Job really says? Let's refer to a source that is neither Pre-T nor "Futurist", i.e. "Journal of the World Jewish Bible Society of Jerusalem" and see how those who really speak and read Hebrew understand this.

    • "At the conclusion of his ordeal, Job addresses God as 'Yahweh' rather than 'Elohim,' and, as we have already seen, confesses, 'I knew you before only by hearsay, but now having seen you with my own eyes, I retract all I have said, and in dust and ashes I repent.' (Job 42:5-6) Here Job confesses his former alienation from God, while at the same time surrendering to Him. The reward for this return to holiness -- for having suffered and survived the test of his direct encounter not with the second-party "Elohim" but with the first-party 'Yahweh' -- is God's elevation of Job to the role for which he was destined to become: that is, as God's 'Suffering Servant' through whom the Gentiles will receive divine salvation: 'The Lord said to Eliphaz the [Gentile]: My anger burns against you and your two friends . . . therefore offer up for yourselves a burn offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you; for to him I will show favor.' (Job 42:8-10) The conclusion, here, seems inescapable: Job is a symbol of Israel, the Jewish people, who by their suffering at His Hands shall be elected to the holy priesthood through whom the world is to be redeemed in the final days." (Lawrence G. Corey (Yakov Leib HaKohain), "The Paradigm of Job: Suffering and the Redemptive Destiny of Israel, Dor L'Dor: Journal of the World Jewish Bible Society of Jerusalem, Vol. XVII, No. 2, Winter 1988/89)

      http://www.donmeh-west.com/Job.shtml
     
  16. OldShepherd

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    [dd]Is English your second language perhaps? In my reponse I believe I mentioned that God said in Isa 19:2, and following how, He intended to fulfill vs. 1. I'm sorry that the scriptures do not support your presuppositions and assumptions.
    [dd]Since you got into this discussion with me I don't believe you have asked me that question. And before we get into that, which at this point is an irrelevant diversion, I would like to resolve the issues already on the table. Feel free to go back and review, e.g. my post on Isaiah 34, refuting the previous assertion that it used "universal language", speaking of the destruction of Edom. The other Isaiah passages, same point.
    [dd]First things first. Feel free to respond to anything I have already posted but don't be putting words in my mouth. My comment about proving from the scriptures, I believe, was in response to someone else blowing off the ECF, as biased, etc, and insisting that we stick to sola scriptura.
     
  17. OldShepherd

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    Clearly a vast overstatement.
    Help me out here. JFB is a very good commentary but where is the part that says that this is a fulfillment of Isa 19:1 and that the Assyrian army is supposed to represent God in a chariot of clouds? As I said, and JFB, contrary to your hyperbole, does not contradict me, God specified how he was going to punish the Egyptians in Isa 19:2, and following, and nowhere does God state it involved His riding on clouds or pagan armies representing Him.
     
  18. GW

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    OLD SHEPHERD:
    And what exactly is your point here? Because John has a vision of a heavenly event that every other passage in the scripture is also a heavenly event, or what exactly? Just because one or more events can clearly be shown to be figurative, allegorical, symbolical, etc. does not prove that any other event is.

    GW:
    My specific point is that Revelation 1:7's "he comes with clouds" and Matt 26:64's "hereafter you [Caiaphas] shall see the son of man...coming in the clouds of heaven" ARE THE SAME EVENT AS Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a depiction of a heavenly visitation, not some physical appearing in cumulus clouds. Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. John is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead, but of an event in the heavenly realms. This was fulfilled in the Day of the Lord against Israel in AD 67-70 when Christ the Stone--the Lord of the Vineyard--came in their generation, and did grind them to powder as foretold (Matt 21:40-45; Matt 23:34-38; Matt 24:33-34).


    GW SAID:
    Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses were always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:

    OLD SHEPHERD REPLIED:
    Always? Pillar of smoke, pillar of fire, burning bush, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., etc.

    GW:
    Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signalled by the prophets with common apcalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

    *Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
    *Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
    *Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
    *2 Sam 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
    *Ez 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

    In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

    *the destruction of earth
    *the bowing of the heavens
    *the melting of the mountains like wax
    *the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
    *the wiping away of every living thing
    *blood as high as the mountains
    *the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
    *Etc. etc.

    This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is Hebraic prophetic idiom used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matt 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)



    OLD SHEPHERD:
    * 2 Sam 22:8-16. The arrows the scriptures speak of are lightning bolts. Hebrew parallelism. Check it out.

    GW:
    Not so fast, friend. The passage says that at the destruction of Saul's kingdom, the earth shook, the foundations of the heavens were moved, smoke came out of Yahweh's nose and fire came out of His mouth and devoured, Yahweh came down to earth and bowed the heavens riding on a cherub and was seen and came with thick dark clouds and he spoke with his voice and he did send arrows and scattered them, and the foundations of the world were laid bare at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. THIS IS COMMON APOCALYPTIC IDIOM, and nothing more. It pertains to Jehovah's historic judgments of individuals and nations and civilizations that repeatedly take place in history. And for sure, Yahweh is never VISIBLY OR LITERALLY SEEN DOING ANY OF THESE THINGS--it is all transacted within the heavenly realms.

    BTW, I noticed you had no comment for Zechariah 9:13-16 where Yahweh was seen over Greece and blowing his trumpet.


    OLD SHEPHERD:
    * Isa 19:1-2, already answered, Yes, I know you responded with a commentary or two. The opinions of scholars is not “proof.” That is the logical fallacy of equivocation.

    GW:
    Please provide your list of scholars that believe Isaiah 19:1-2 is not fulfilled.

    OLD SHEPHERD:
    * Isaiah 52.10. Are you saying Isaiah is a liar? Let us assume that this is a figure of speech. Does that, in and of itself, “prove” that any other passage in the Bible is also a figure of speech?

    GW:
    Isaiah is speaking in metaphors for God's invisible comings. Do you really believe that the gentiles saw Jehovah's arm appear suddenly before their very eyes??? Must have been some major historic event. LOL. The Jews fully knew and taught that no man can see Yahweh with the earthly eyes and live (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12), yet the Hebrew prophets always describe Yahweh's judgments as physical comings with armies, trumpets, arrows, bloodshed, destruction of heaven and earth, etc. etc. Isaiah 52:10 says the "eyes of all nations saw His arm." Zechariah 9:13-16 says Yahweh was "seen over Greece blowing his trumpet." This is called apocalyptic language. It is idomatic, it is Hebraic, it is not physical/literal whatsoever. The desolations of nations and civilizations are real, but the physical manifestation of Yahweh with armies and such is metaphor that describes his HEAVENLY, invisible workings that bring about such earthly dooms.

    OLD SHEPHERD
    * Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5. Moses said it happened. Are you calling Moses a liar. Are you saying that God is not capable of doing this? Along with the previous verse, what proof do you offer that it did not happen?

    GW:
    Of course it happened spiritually, but not visibly to the earthly eye--it is metaphorical speech. No man has ever seen Yahweh and lived (Ex 33:20; Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12). Compare Deut 33:2 to Jude 1:14--Moses words are standard apocalyptic language. The Judges 5:4-5 passage says Yahweh marched on the fields of Seir and Edom and the mountains all melted before him, even Sinai. Must have been some historic event to see Yahweh march on the fields! Certainly, Jehovah was not seen physically (Ex 33:20; Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12).


    OLD SHEPHERD
    ”Yahweh destroyed the cosmos when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).”

    If you tried real hard I’m sure you could accurately quote something, anything. Let’s review these two passages and see if they support your presumptions, and assumptions. According to your version the cosmos and the heavens are destroyed, vs. 23. It doesn’t the say earth was destroyed but “without form and void” and the heavens were also not destroyed but “had no light.” And not only does the passage not say “destroyed” but God says specifically that He will not destroy. Vs. 27, “yet will I not make a full end.”


    Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
    24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
    27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
    28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


    GW REPLIES:
    The point is, you and I believe this is FULFILLED! Therefore, if this apocalyptic scenario pertains to when Babylon conquered Jerusalem, why do you have trouble seeing that the same metaphors used by Christ and even the book of Revelation pertained to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and the various other catastrophies of that time???


    OLD SHEPHERD
    Now the other passage [Ezekiel 32:2-16], does it say that God destroyed the cosmos as you allege? No, once again a false quote. It says the heavens would be dark, not destroyed, and God said He would bring destruction “among” and "into" the nations, i.e. non-Jews, not that He would destroy the cosmos. Unless you want to claim that “cover the sun with a cloud”, vs. 32:7, means destroy the cosmos?

    GW:
    Please note that Ezekiel 32:6-8 is the same idiomatic speech as Jesus used in Matthew 24:29. Ezekiel 32:6-8 was fulfilled in the 500sBC. Isaiah 13:10 was fulfilled also probably in the 500s. Matthew 24:29 was fulfilled in the 1st century. For sure, if the heavens ever literally went dark, the universe and our solar system wouldn't still be here. Certainly the human race wouldn't still be here. "And there was no man left." The earth became WITHOUT FORM and VOID. Finally...


    --COMPARE THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
    Eze 32:7-8
    And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

    --TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    --AND TO THIS FULFILLED PASSAGE--
    Isaiah 13:10
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    This is all apocalyptic language employed by the Hebrew prophets concerning things and events that have already taken place. They do not prophesy whatsoever about things in our future, for they were already fulfilled.
     
  19. GW

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    OLD SHEPHERD:
    Do you happen to read Hebrew? The other guy didn't. When people start telling me I made a mistake interpreting the Bible, then I expect to see some Biblical scholarship. For example you refer to ??? as "vindicator". I posted the definition of that word. "Vindicator" is NOT one of those definitions. The word "vindicate", in any of its forms, does not occur in the O.T. The most common definitions of "Ga'el"are "avenger of blood" and "kinsman redeemer".

    GW:
    I hope you will enjoy this good scholarship on this matter, and reform your views accordingly:

    (#1) "'I know that my redeemer lives' are familiar words to the Christian because of their adaptation to Christ in several hymns. However, the sense here is different from that which is usually understood when applied to Christ. The Christian idea of "Redeemer" is of one who is deliverer from sin. The Hebrew word "go'el" (#1350) should more appropriately be translated "Vindicator," i.e., one who delivers from affliction and wrong which is NOT due to sin. Job, unable to convince his friends of his innocence, was leaving it in God's hands to prove to them that he was NOT guilty of the sin of which they accused him. This is the high point in Job's stated trust in God and dependence upon him." (from Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible -- editor: Spiros Zodhiates, p. 689)

    (#2) "[My Redeemer:] the language is legal: the redeemer is the 'vindicator' who will 'rise last to speak in court' (NEB). Job does not say expressly who he expects his vindicator will be; perhaps he knows, yet does not know, that it will be God. At the moment God is his enemy ... Yet on the other hand his hope is that he will see God 'on my side' (RSV) (26f.). Job is not necessarily thinking of vindication beyond death, though his language by no means rules that out. The destruction of his skin is what has happened already (there is no reference to 'worms' (AV) in the Hebrew), and his hope appears to be that in his flesh, i.e., while he is still alive, he will see his vindication." (International Bible Commentary -- editor F.F. Bruce, p. 533)

    (#3) "[Redeemer] Heb. Go'el, from ga'al, 'to make a claim.' The Go'el was the next of kin whose duty it was to prevent land being sold out of the clan (Lev 25:25), and to avenge murder. Driver points out that the word means here the opposite to the Christian idea, viz. a deliverer, not from sin, but from affliction and wrong NOT due to sin. The best rendering here is 'Vindicator.'" (from the MacMillan One-Volume Bible Commentary -- editor: J.R. Dummelow, p306)



    OLD SHEPHERD:
    RE: "at the end of the story Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen"

    This seems reasonable but is that what the book of Job really says?

    GW:
    Of course it is what the book of Job really says, and the World Jewish Bible Society of Jerusalem's allegorical, non-contextual interpretation is laughable by comparison. Quite simply, the story completes itself: Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; Job 30:30) and at the end of the story Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10). Job's hope was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him. (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Job stated by faith that even once the burning boils had removed his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened at the end of the book. This straighforward and undeniably self-evident interpretation puts the Zionistic allegorical and de-contextual silliness of the World Jewish Bible Society to shame. Shame on them.
     
  20. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    Ow, that's gotta hurt. :eek:

    I am curious to know if Shepherd can somehow prove that Zodhiates, Bruce and Dummelow have got it all wrong. They are, of course, some of the most respected names in textual criticism and systematic theology.

    :)
     
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