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Preterists: Did anyone SEE Jesus come again?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 24, 2002.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Friends,

    Jesus SAID that ALL tribes of the earth will SEE the COMING of the Son of Man:
    Preterists BELIEVE that Jesus CAME in 70 AD. Question: HOW MANY people SAW him COMING on the clouds?

    When the DISCIPLES of Christ were looking steadfastly toward heaven as Jesus WENT up, two men stood by them in white apparel and SAID:
    Preterists BELIEVE that Jesus CAME in 70 AD. Question: Did Jesus COME in LIKE manner as the disciples SAW him taken up into heaven?

    Here are some additional TRUTHS about the SECOND coming of Christ:

    2 Peter 3:10 - "But the DAY of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; BOTH the earth and the works that are in it will be BURNED up."

    2 Thess. 1:7-10 - "...when the Lord Jesus is REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    These shall be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, when he COMES in that DAY, to be glorified in his saints and to be admired among all those who believe..."

    1 Thess. 4:16-17 - " For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead "IN Christ" will RISE first.

    Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

    Rev. 20:4-5 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads and on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    But the rest of the dead did NOT live again UNTIL the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    Preterists BELIEVE that these pophecies have already been fulfilled in 70 AD. Question: Have the DEAD "in Christ" RISEN to meet Jesus in the air?

    Ed
     
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  2. PreteristArchive

    PreteristArchive New Member

    7
    +0
    I know this will make no difference, because if the word of God does not satisfy, then nothing will; however, here are some accounts of the ENTIRE region of Palestine seeing angelic armies in conflict in the skies. Research for yourself, if as interested as you appear to be:

    Josephus (A.D.75), a Jewish general present at the destruction of Jerusalem, wrote of the coming in the clouds as such:

    Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Wars, VI-V-3).

    Tacitus (1st Century), the Roman historian, relating the same events, wrote:

    "In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Histories, v. 13).

    Eusebius (A.D. 325), quoting from the Latin Josephus, in the fourth century:

    "For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).
     
  3. judge

    judge Regular Member

    153
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    Christian
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Your personal INTERPRETATION does NOT conform with other TRUTHS regarding this issue. As you can see in Acts 1:11, the second coming of Jesus will LITERALLY be SEEN in like manner as the discipes LITERALLY saw Jesus taken up into heaven.

    Acts 9:7 tells us that Saul (Paul) did NOT literally SEE Jesus. Is there any historical account that people LITERALLY saw Jesus as he CAME DOWN from heaven in the clouds?

     

    Where do Preterists of the 21st century go when they die?

    Ed
     
  5. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married

    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  6. judge

    judge Regular Member

    153
    +0
    Christian
    Hi edpobre.

    A question for you.

    when jesus ascended, only a few saw him do so, if he returns in like manner how will more than just a few see Him?
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    The Bible says "ALL the tribes on earth will SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30). Thus, I'm sure that more than just a few will SEE him.

    Only a few SAW Jesus ascend to heaven because it was NOT accompanied with great noise. His second coming will be accompanied with "a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and ith the trumpet of God" (1 Thes. 4:16-17). Thus, there is no way people everywhere will miss his second coming.

    Ed

     
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    "My dear friends,

    do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

    This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

    Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a  HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

    Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

    Ed



     
     
  9. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married






    Alpha and Omega


    The Trinity: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit


    Is the Creedal Doctrine of Trinity Biblical


    A brief declaration and vindication of the Trinity


    The following links provide information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, their doctrine, who they state Jesus is?, what Salvation is according to their man-made doctrinal beliefs, the control they adminster to it's members, their deceptive practices, and the claims of the founder, Felix Manalo and his belief that he is spoken of in scripture as a messenger of God/The 5th angel.

    There is a considerable amount of data that has been gathered on Iglesia ni Cristo, much of it from their own publications and former members.

    I believe it is well worth the time reading over the information regarding Iglesia ni Cristo, indeed.


    Examine Iglesia ni Cristi

    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  10. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
    Hey gunny , could you back off a bit , I believe this thread is about preterism and I also believe Ed may put on a good show . Thanks .
     
  11. judge

    judge Regular Member

    153
    +0
    Christian
     

    Thanks Ed, but it seems that no matter how much noise was made, there is no possible way that "all the tribes" would have seen our lord leave in the way he did in Acts.

     

    All the tribes of the earth have seen the coming of the kingdom, some reject the King some accept Him.
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    First, there is NO record in the Bible that Jesus ascended to heaven "with a bang." On the other hand, his second coming will be accompanied by the trumpet of God.

    Second, with God, NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37). If God removes the moon that covers the sun, the sun would be seen from ALL parts of the earth and there would no longer be night. Such will happen when Jesus comes again.
     
    We are talking about the coming of the "Son of Man" - NOT the "coming of he kingdom." These are two entirely DIFFERENT matters.Your answer is EVASIVE.

    With all the NOISE that accompanies Christ's second coming, NOT just a few people will see him come on the clouds. Did this happen in 70 AD?

    BTW, you haven't answered my last question Judge: WHERE do 21st-century Preterists go when they die?

    Additionally: I am a Futurist, where do Preterist THINK I will go when I die? Shall I be with Preterists or will ALL Futurists be together and WHERE?

    Ed

     

     
     
  13. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi guys,

    I don't have much time, but I'll share my thoughts. Actually the following is something I copied/pasted from one of my older posts:

    (someone presented the following statement:)

    To which I replied:

    I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this =)

    The new testament uses (at least) two words for 'nations'. One of them is 'Ethnos' (Strong's #1484) which commonly refers to the gentiles, and the other is Phule (Strong's #5443) which refers to the the tribes of Israel.

    'Phule' appears in 23 verses in the New Testament, and I'll list all the verses in KJV here. In every case, the word refers to the tribes of Israel:

    Matt 19:28 - And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matt 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Luke 2:36 - And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

    Luke 22:30 - That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Acts 13:21 - And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

    Romans 11:1 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Philippians 3:5 - Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

    Hebrews 7:13 - For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

    Hebrews 7:14 - For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

    James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    Rev 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Rev 5:5 - And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Rev 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    Rev 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Rev 7:5 - Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

    Rev 7:6 - Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

    Rev 7:7 - Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

    Rev 7:8 - Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

    Rev 7:9 - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Rev 7:11 - And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    Rev 13:7 - And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Rev 14:6 - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

    Rev 21:12 - And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel

    Many object that verses like Rev 1:7, Rev 5:9, Rev 7:9, Rev 7:11, Rev 13:7, and Rev 14:6 is referring to everyone since it says 'kindred' in KJV, however, when we look at Young's Literal translation (which some say is more accurate) we see that the word 'tribe' is used in all those verses so I think it's consistent with all the other passages and how they refer specifically to the 12 tribes of Israel. Furthermore, Rev 1:7 (which in KJV uses the word 'kindred') looks to be a quotation of Zech 12:10.

    Compare this:

    Rev 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    With this:

    Zech 12:10 - And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

    And the context (Zech 12:10-14) makes it clear that those who are mourning are the people of Israel, which fits the 'tribe = tribes of Israel' definition I mentioned.

    As for ethnos, I really haven't studied it much, and so I don't really know much about it. But I'll just share what I've come across so far. The word phrase 'all nations' appears in Matt 25:32. (all as in 'pas', and nations as in 'ethnos'). And the word 'pas' (all) isn't always understood as we might think. The following was take from this online bible site:

    ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

    Now let's look at some of the verses that say 'all nations'

    Matt 25:32 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

    Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

    Matt 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Matt 24:9 - Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    Matt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Acts 2:9 - And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    Rom 1:5 - By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    Rom 16:26 - But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

    Based on these verses, we can conclude that Matt 25:32's use of 'all nations' may not be referring to the entire global world, but rather the Roman world, since Matt 24:14 says the gospel would be preached to the 'world' (gk. oikoumene, which clearly refers to the roman world/empire). That would explain why Apostle Paul apparently believed the gospel was preached to all the 'world' (Rom 10:18, Rom 16:25-26 Col 1:23)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  14. judge

    judge Regular Member

    153
    +0
    Christian


    First, there is NO record in the Bible that Jesus ascended to heaven "with a bang." On the other hand, his second coming will be accompanied by the trumpet of God.

    Second, with God, NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37). If God removes the moon that covers the sun, the sun would be seen from ALL parts of the earth and there would no longer be night. Such will happen when Jesus comes again.
     


    We are talking about the coming of the "Son of Man" - NOT the "coming of he kingdom." These are two entirely DIFFERENT matters.Your answer is EVASIVE.

    With all the NOISE that accompanies Christ's second coming, NOT just a few people will see him come on the clouds. Did this happen in 70 AD?

    BTW, you haven't answered my last question Judge: WHERE do 21st-century Preterists go when they die?

    Additionally: I am a Futurist, where do Preterist THINK I will go when I die? Shall I be with Preterists or will ALL Futurists be together and WHERE?

    Ed

     

     
    [/QUOTE]

     

    Hi ed,

    I didn't say Christ did ascend with a bang, I was merely trying to point out that when He left it was a very localised event, and that His return in the same manner was to be local too. But my point is that this "return" cannot be the 'second coming'.

    He returned to His disciples many times after His resurrection. Did He not? each of these was a return , but NOT the second coming.

     

    I am sorry that you think my answer is EVASIVE, can we discuss this more?

    Why do you think the coming of the son of man is not the coming of the kingdom?

     

    21st century believers go to be "with the Lord" when they die.

    All the best
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    So, are you saying now that what Acts 1:11 is talking about is Jesus' "return" NOT his second coming? You are mistaken Judge. Did the disciples SAW Jesus COMING down on the clouds for every one of his "return?"

    Now back to Christ's SECONG coming. The Bible teaches that "ALL tribes of the earth will SEE theSon of Man COMING on the clouds." IF Jesus CAME the second time on 70 AD, was he SEEN by ALL tribes on the earth COMING on the cloud, just like what the two men said in Acts 1:11?

    If you really think that "coming of the kingdom" is the "coming of the Son of Man" why did you feel the NEED to CHANGE it? Now, would you please answer my question.

    WHERE is that ("with the Lord") Judge?

    The Bible says Christ is in heaven "sitting at the right hand of God" (Col. 3:1). Do Preterists believe this? Are the Preterist dead "with the Lord" in heaven NOW?

    The Bible says that those who are "IN Christ" (dead and alive) will meet Jesus in the air and thus will be with him always." Since Preterists believe that Christ CAME the second time (which is what 1 Thes. 4:16-17 is all about) and there is NO biblical account of his going back to heaven AFTER his second coming, do you believe that DEAD Preterists are NOW "with the Lord" ON EARTH?

    Ed
     
  16. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Suppose there were two men, who both claimed to be the Son of God. Each gathered together a group of twelve men who followed after him. Both taught many things that appeared to be from God. They both told of fantastic things that were to occur in the future that would be judgments of God upon His people who refused to receive His Son and His prophets which He had sent to them.


    For the rest of the story visit this link:
    http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=212223#post212223

     

     
     
  17. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Ed,

    I don't intend to get into a heated debate, but if you'd like to get a preterist perspective on the 2nd coming, I'll try my best to explain.  While I don't know if you'll agree with any preterist material, I think it's interesting to at least understand their basis for things.  I personally try to avoid the term 'preterism'.  I prefer covenant eschatology:  eschatology from a covenant perspective.  Here's what I mean:  The old covenant was still existant when Hebrews was written, and the book claims that the old covenant was passing away and the new covenant would be fully established once the old was done away with (Heb 8:8-13, Heb 10:9, Gal 4:21-31).

    I know that may sound a bit strange but the emphasis on covenant really puts things into perspective.

    As for the coming of the son of Man, I think this page does a great job explaining the nature of Christ's return.

    I addressed the issue of 'all' in my earlier post, as well as 'all the tribes' and how it refers to all the tribes of Israel, since Israel is the one that was to be judged (Matt 23).  As for coming on clouds, the page I mentioned earlier explains that as well. 

    Also here's how preterist interpret Acts 1:9-11

    I heard many explanations of this...one explanation is that Jesus would return in his flesh.  Another explanation is that Jesus would appear quietly infront of 11 men on a mountain.  Some went on to say that Jesus would come back and the men would be glaring into the skies with the 'two men dressed in white' in their presence. 

    In anycase, preterists forcus on the manner in which he rose into heaven.  Preterist believe that the use of 'clouds' is refers to glory...as in shekinah.

    The two men clearly say that Jesus's coming would be like his 'going' (so to speak).  Thus the manner in which he went up into heaven would be the same manner in which he would could down.  In other words:

    Jesus's coming = Jesus' ascension.

    Since Jesus said his coming would be with glory (Matt 24:30), I think it's safe to say that Acts 1:9's reference to 'cloud' refers to the shekinah glory, since Jesus's ascencion according to Paul is that he was taken up in glory (1 Tim 3:16)

    Thus the manner of Jesus' coming is consistent with Jesus's ascension into heaven.  I think this fits.

    Preterists don't believe that those who physically died are still dead, but rather they're living (Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38), and probably more 'alive' than us.  In anycase, preterist believe that our departed brethren are in heaven with the lord :)

    Great question Ed! :)

    I mentioned earlier that I prefer the term 'covenant eschatology'.  I don't believe 'meeting Jesus in the air' is a literal statement, but rather I think it refers to the consummation of the covenant with God. 

    Compare Rev 21:3...

    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

    ...with 1 Thess 4:17...

    After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    Notice the word 'clouds' here.  I mentioned earlier that the 'cloud' reference may refer to shekinah glory.  I know this may sound like a stretch, but God promised the church that we would share in his glory (Col 3:4, Rom 8:16, 1 Pet 5:1), since the hope of glory is Christ in us (Rom 5:2, Col 1:27).  Furthemore, John describes how the New Jerusalem (the church, the bride) shines with the glory of God (Rev 21:11, Eph 5:27).

    It's also noteworthy to compare Rev 21:3 with Heb 8:10, Jer 31:33, Eze 14:11, Eze 37:23, Zech 8:8, etc.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Hiya Franklin :)

    I haven't been here in quite a while, hope all is well with you.

    Regards
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Okay.

    I don't agree that "tribes" refer only to the 12 tribes of Israel and 'nation' refers only to the Roman world. As I stated in another post, the Bible is not limited to a specific time. It is for all time. If Jesus' COMING refers only to the 12 tribes of Israel, what good is the Bible for Gentiles like us?

    And if the gospel has already been preached to the 'world' as you understand the meaning of 'world' is, why ae we still alive today? Jesus said that the gospel will be preached into all the world and then the END will come (Matt. 24:14).

    Of course, as there are many FALSE churches, there are as many interpretations of what the Bible says. Each FALSE church TWISTS what the Bible says to make it fit their FALSE belief.

    I don't believe that 'clouds' mean glory.

    In Matthew 24:30, the Bible teaches that "they will SEE the Son of Man coming [i ]ON the clouds[/i] of heaven WITH power and great GLORY." It's very CLEAR that 'clouds' and 'glory' are NOT one and the same.

    Acts 1:9 teaches: "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud HID him froom their sight." Note that a 'cloud' HID Jesus from their SIGHT. Definitely, this is a literal description of a CLOUD that HID Jesus so the disciples could not SEE him anymore.

    CLEARLY, Acts 1:9-11 teaches that Jesus ASCENDED  to heaven a MAN that could be seen UNTIL a 'cloud' HID him from their sight. And Jesus will COME in LIKE manner in which people SAW him ascending to heaven, a MAN. 

    Will Jesus come HIDDEN from sight by a CLOUD? That's NOT what the Bible teaches? Did Jesus ASCEND to heaven ON a cloud? The Bible says NO (Acts 1:9-11). Will Jesus DESCEND from heaven ON a cloud? The Bible says YES (Matt. 24:30)!

    Thus, the MANNER of Jesus' ASCENDING to heaven and his COMING again is NOT the SAME. This is NOT what the two men meant in Acts 1:11.

    Why is it that you believe 'cloud' is SYMBOLIC but take Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 LITERALLY? Do you Preterists LITERALLY eat Jesus' body and LITERALLY drink his blood too?

    Aside from Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38, do you have any scripture which supports your belief that DEAD Preterists are in heaven with the Lord now? Why should DEAD Preterists be in heaven when their brethren Preterists are STILL on earth suffering trials and tribulations?

    Is there biblical record which shows that Jesus went BACK TO HEAVEN AFTER he CAME in 70 AD?

    Earlier, you said that DEAD Preterists are now in heaven with the Lord. Who are the DEAD "IN Christ" referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16-17?

    If Preterists believe that they CANNOT go to heaven UNLESS they die, who are those who are "alive and remain" who will be caught up in a 'cloud' to meet Jesus in the air?

    Ed

     
     
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