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inhisdebt said:NO
Luke 21v22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
No!!! a look at the parallel passages in Mathew 24, and Mark 13 shows that these events in v 25 take place after the tribulation refered to here as the times of the Gentiles/or the days of vengance.
Hi LG. The problem appears to be who God's Wrath is coming upon in the first place. I have heard people say that Paul's DOTL prophecies are different than the Olivet Discourse!Lady Goodnews said:Inhis debt,
I looked at the parallel accounts in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17!
No matter how you parallel it, Jesus said he was coming back "the days of vengeance" (Luke 21:20-28), did he not?
Yes or No?
Thanks,
Lady Goodnews,
Matthew 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute ye in the this city, be ye fleeing into the other, for verily I am saying to ye, ye no not be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever be coming the Son of Man.Ezekiel 7:2 "And you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD to the land of Israel: 'An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land. 3 Now the end [has come] upon you, And I will send My anger against you; I will judge you according to your ways, And I will repay you for all your abominations.
Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.
LittleLambofJesus said:Hi LG. The problem appears to be who God's Wrath is coming upon in the first place. I have heard people say that Paul's DOTL prophecies are different than the Olivet Discourse!
The Wraths are only coming on unbeliving Jews, not non-Jew Gentiles. Daniel's people were Jews and Daniel 12 specifically states it is ONLY Daniel's people that are involved. I wish I knew how better to explain to others the ramifications of this, as revelation does not involve the Whole World Globe. Matthew 10:23 `And whenever they may persecute ye in the this city, be ye fleeing into the other, for verily I am saying to ye, ye no not be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever be coming the Son of Man.
Luke 21:22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. [SIZE=+2]
[/SIZE]Ezekiel 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah.
I don't really like labels, but I do enjoy studying the Scriptures and rarely venture outside of it.That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.
I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.
Reve 14:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser [#2723] of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. {THE} kathgoroV <2725> {ACCUSER}
LittleLambofJesus said:I don't really like labels, but I do enjoy studying the Scriptures and rarely venture outside of it.
Here is a very profound passage by Jesus which most christians tend to "avoid". Thoughts?
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm
JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses [#2723] you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" kathgorwn <2723> (5723) {ACCUSES}
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the [OC/Law] Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
This is the problem I see in much of christianity today, so I recommend to them to study the parables of Jesus more deeply. Blessings.Lady Goodnews said:I don't like labels either, I was just responding to the question.
Please clarify what you want my thoughts about, whether it is a parable, a "literal" hell or what?
Elect Lady,
Here is a very profound passage by Jesus which most christians tend to "avoid". Thoughts?LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented
Matt 22:12 "So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
zeph 1:8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. 9 In the same day I will punish All those who leap over the threshold, Who fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Reve 14:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser [#2723] of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. {THE} kathgoroV <2725> {ACCUSER}
Its rather simple really, that is not what he said, he said that the days of vengance would take place until the times of the gentils was complete, That the Jews would be hauled off into all nations, And that the Jerusalam would be trodden down by the gentils until the times of the gentils was complete.Yes the jews were hauled off into all nations, however Jerusalam is still full of gentils. And both Mathew and Mark show the events of the heavens (v 25-26) will take place after the tribulation.Lady Goodnews said:Hi LittleLambofJesus,
Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!
How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.
What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.
That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.
I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.
Blessings,
Lady Goodnews,
Its rather simple really, that is not what he said, he said that the days of vengance would take place until the times of the gentils was complete, That the Jews would be hauled off into all nations, And that the Jerusalam would be trodden down by the gentils until the times of the gentils was complete.Yes the jews were hauled off into all nations, however Jerusalam is still full of gentils.
Lady Goodnews said:Hi LittleLambofJesus,
Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!
How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.
What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.
That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.
I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.
Blessings,
Lady Goodnews,
2000yrs for it to be "trampled"???Brain Damage said:From luke 21:20 to 24 you are correct , 24 tells us of the diaspora . 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
Its the next part that you don't understand .
Luke 21:24-And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
From there on we are looking at future prophecy for the time of the gentiles have not yet been fulfilled , Jerusalem is still under gentile dominance , that's why the capital of Israel is Tel-aviv and not Jerusalem.
Prophecy Countdown said:Jesus, was referring to the second advent where He will return with great power and Glory on the day of the Lord.
Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.
Jesus, did not know at what time He would return on that great day of the Lord.
Therefore could not state that specific time to anyone.”
There was a promise to visit His Disciples, before they could start their work throughout the cities of Israel.
Matthew 10: 23. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Jesus, fulfilled the above last verse when He appeared before the Disciples, recorded in John 20:
John 20: 18 – 31. 19. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Jesus said. Luke 21:6. As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.
We still have the STONES PILED ‘ONE UPON ANOTHER called the ‘wailing wall.’ Yes stones were cast down but not all of them as Jesus, stated very clearly
“ NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, that shall not be thrown down.”
70AD does not demonstrate that ALL the stones were thrown down, specified by the Lord in person.
Were all things written fulfilled in 70AD? No not at all.
In Luke 21 Jesus, is referring to the’ time of the end,’ when it is read in full and not His visitation in the upper room.
Luke 21: 20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22. For these be the days of vengeance, THAT ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be FULFILLED.
So, what was to be fulfilled?
Luke 21: 24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED.
The Jews were lead away by Babylon, and also by the Romans. I think under Hadrian.
However for the prophecy to be fulfilled it must contain the following events, which simply did not occur back then.
25. And there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN, and IN THE MOON, and IN THE STARS; and upon the EARTH DISTRES OF NATIONS, with perplexity; the sea and the WAVES ROARING;
26. Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for THE POWERS OF HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN.
27. And then shall they SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.
28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION IS NIGH.
Last trump 1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and WITH THE TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE FIRST:
17. THEN WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Gentiles will trample on Jerusalem, for ONLY 42 months about the time of the seven trumpets period which is at the ‘time of the end,’ the very last trumpet is blown to resurrect the witnesses.
Rev 11: 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the holy city shall they tread under foot FORTY TWO MONTHS.
That is a lot less than Rome, trampled upon Jerusalem, so it is not referring to the period of the Roman empire. Also the two witnesses were nowhere to be seen during the Roman long occupation of Israel.
Rev 11: 3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED and THREESCORE DAYS, clothed in sackcloth.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard A GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15. And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
To understand the time spans of these events we should include Daniel, but this post is too long as it is, so I will leave it here for now.
PC
Umm, because the book of Daniel concerns the Jewish Nation perhaps?ikester said:so how many disciples were alive in 70 ad.....
how does Daniel ch...11&12 relate in any way to events in 70ad....
Jesus said the very reason for the temple and Jerusalem destruction was...that they missed it.....nothing to do with his return......
Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.'
Lady Goodnews said:Hi LittleLambofJesus,
Often times other problems are introduced to avoid dealing with the true facts!
How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.
What is even more amazing is someone admitting Jesus said that, then deny he did it.
That is why I believe Preterism is right, because It doesn't deny Jesus told his disciples when he was coming, nor does it deny he kept his promise.
I challenge anyone to prove Jesus did not state he was coming the days of vengeance, or the days of vengeance have not occurred (Luke 21:20-28), if anyone can do that, then I will abandon my belief that preterism is right.
Blessings,
Lady Goodnews,
How anyone can read Luke 21:20-28, and deny Jesus told the disciples they would see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, "the days of vengeance," is beyond me.
Lady Goodnews said:In Luke 21:20-28, Jesus told the disciples when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, and let them that be in judea flee to the mountains, those be "the day of vengeance, when they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power great glory and redemption.
Did the desolation occur yet? Did armies compass Jerusalem yet? Did the days of vengeance occur yet?
I don't believe Jesus is a false prophet, therefore believe Preterism is right.
Lady Goodnews,
ikester said:so how many disciples were alive in 70 ad.....
how does Daniel ch...11&12 relate in any way to events in 70ad....
Jesus said the very reason for the temple and Jerusalem destruction was...that they missed it.....nothing to do with his return......
Pandersen said:
This is the part ikster was asking about.
If you use this to say that the disciples would see His return, it fails because many were not still alive by 70 AD
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