Preterist views on Christ's coming

[Erik Nelson]

It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.
How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?


Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you think the judgment of the dead occurred in 70 AD?

.

Daniel 12:2, some sort of Resurrection prophesied to occur with the "time times and half a time" = middle of the 70th week = 70 AD ?

Matthew 27:52-53 ?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Do you want to avoid discussing the 70ad Great City/Harlot in Revelation 18 and 19?

Matthew 23:37
‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee,....
Behold! left desolate to you is your house;
Luke 13:34
‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that is killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto her......
35 ‘Behold! your house is being left to you desolate,

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops,
then be knowing that come nigh the desolating of Her

Revelation 18:
4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, 'come forth out of Her, My people,
that ye may not partake with her sins,
and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying
"woe! woe! the great City, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated/

Rev 18:7
“In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,
‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people!
How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.

.

Worth remembering that Jesus was the living incarnation of the word of God. The living embodiment of Torah.

ALL of the red letters in the New Testament are allusions to the Old Testament. Jesus never or virtually never said something random. Everything he said, points to the fulfillment of some particular passage of prophecy in the Old Testament.

So when Jesus says something you have to think about it and find it in the Old Testament first. Only then can you discern its meaning?

I'm not entirely opposed to the possibility of literal interpretations as well as allusory interpretations. Double fulfillment. But the primary, meaning of every one of Jesus is Sayings. Was? An allusion to the Old Testament. And so the primary, meaning can only be found there in.

Similarly, with the Apostles like Saint Peter. 2 Peter 3. Alludes 2 Psalm 90. "1000 years is as a day", turning from 2 Peter 3 to psalm 90. May give another interpretation of the words.

The allusion to Heaven and earth passing away is another Old Testament Reference, which I can't find right now.

 

[mkgal1]

The allusion to Heaven and earth passing away is another Old Testament Reference, which I can't find right now

I'm not sure if this is the reference you are thinking of....but Deuteronomy 32:1 (the song of Moses) says:

Deut 32:1 ~ "Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

Deut 32:22 ~ "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains"

Deut. 28:49 ~ "The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like a vulture. It is a nation whose language you do not understand.

Isaiah 51:16 ~ "I have put my words in your mouth
and covered you with the shadow of my hand —
I who set the heavens in place,
who laid the foundations of the earth,
and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people."​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.

How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you think the judgment of the dead occurred in 70 AD?

Daniel 12:2, some sort of Resurrection prophesied to occur with the "time times and half a time" = middle of the 70th week = 70 AD ?

Matthew 27:52-53 ?

Hello Erik. Translations can also be the cause of a lot of confusion concerning the Scriptures and why, as most everyone here knows, I devote a lot of time with the Greek.
Brother BAB didn't quote both the passages in Luke.
Here is a thread I started on that just because he appears to always bring it up to preterists.

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

I came across these verses, which I are part of the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple discourse/parousia, and found some differences in the wording between the Ninevites [standing up G450]nd Queen of the South [being roused G1453].

Both Matthew and Luke mention this event.
I thought it might be interesting to look more closely at these "end time" verses.

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Matthew 12
34 Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36 For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38 Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<450> in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
That they repent<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also the Son of the Man shall be to this generation."
31 "The Queen of The South shall stand in judgment with the people of this generation, and she shall condemn them, for she came from the far side of the land that she might hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold, he who is greater than Solomon is here."

32 'Men, Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
That they repent<3340> at the proclamation of Jonah and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here
=======================================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12
34Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41The Ninevite men will arise in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, one greater than Jonah is here

42 `A Queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also The Son of Man shall be to this generation."

31 'A queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning them.
That she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

TO BE CONTINUED.................

 

[Erik Nelson]

Hello Erik. Translations can also be the cause of a lot of confusion concerning the Scriptures and why, as most everyone here knows, I devote a lot of time with the Greek.
Brother BAB didn't quote both the passages in Luke.
Here is a thread I started on that just because he appears to always bring it up to preterists.

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

I came across these verses, which I are part of the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple discourse/parousia, and found some differences in the wording between the Ninevites [standing up G450]nd Queen of the South [being roused G1453].

Both Matthew and Luke mention this event.
I thought it might be interesting to look more closely at these "end time" verses.

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Matthew 12
34 Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36 For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38 Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<450> in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
That they repent<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also the Son of the Man shall be to this generation."
31 "The Queen of The South shall stand in judgment with the people of this generation, and she shall condemn them, for she came from the far side of the land that she might hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold, he who is greater than Solomon is here."

32 'Men, Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
That they repent<3340> at the proclamation of Jonah and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here
=======================================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12
34Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41The Ninevite men will arise in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, one greater than Jonah is here

42 `A Queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also The Son of Man shall be to this generation."

31 'A queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning them.
That she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

TO BE CONTINUED.................

What am I missing? The words "this generation" Specifies WHO Not when or where or anything else?

At the final general judgment. Everyone from everywhere and every went and every generation will be raised to face the reckoning.

That's why 2 different generations. 500 to 1000 years apart. From Nineveh to the Queen of Sheba. Compared with First Century Jews. Would all be raised together? AT final judgment.

The most interesting part about those verses is that apparently. At final judgment. God will listen to human testimony. All Will be accountable to each other as well as to God?

At any rate. Neither of those, 2 verses contains a time statement. Neither of those verses is about TIME? No idea exactly WHEN the Queen of Sheba and the people of Nineveh will condemn the hypocrisy of the first century.

The power of Matthew 24:34. Is that he specifies who and when? "This generation... Shall not pass away."

But it is only the second part which specifies the time the mere words. This generation does not automatically imply any kind of time. whatsoever?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Hello Erik. Translations can also be the cause of a lot of confusion concerning the Scriptures and why, as most everyone here knows, I devote a lot of time with the Greek.
Brother BAB didn't quote both the passages in Luke.
Here is a thread I started on that just because he appears to always bring it up to preterists.

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

I came across these verses, which I are part of the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple discourse/parousia, and found some differences in the wording between the Ninevites [standing up G450]nd Queen of the South [being roused G1453].

Both Matthew and Luke mention this event.
I thought it might be interesting to look more closely at these "end time" verses.

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Matthew 12
34 Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36 For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38 Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<450> in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
That they repent<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also the Son of the Man shall be to this generation."
31 "The Queen of The South shall stand in judgment with the people of this generation, and she shall condemn them, for she came from the far side of the land that she might hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold, he who is greater than Solomon is here."

32 'Men, Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
That they repent<3340> at the proclamation of Jonah and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here
=======================================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12
34Offspring of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41The Ninevite men will arise in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, one greater than Jonah is here

42 `A Queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also The Son of Man shall be to this generation."

31 'A queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning them.
That she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

TO BE CONTINUED.................

Matthew 24:29. Alludes to Isaiah 13:10. Judgment versus BABYLON. Which alludes to Revelation 11:8 and revelation 18.

Hence, Luke spells, it out word for word. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies know that is Desolation Daniel 9:26, is near.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I'm not sure if this is the reference you are thinking of....but Deuteronomy 32:1 (the song of Moses) says:

Deut 32:1 ~ "Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

Deut 32:22 ~ "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains"

Deut. 28:49 ~ "The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like a vulture. It is a nation whose language you do not understand.

Isaiah 51:16 ~ "I have put my words in your mouth
and covered you with the shadow of my hand —
I who set the heavens in place,
who laid the foundations of the earth,
and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people."​

All of those, and Psalms 102:25-27

Hebrews 1:10-14 - The Perishing of Heaven & Earth: Berean Bible Church