Preterist views on Christ's coming

dms1972

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Hi,

I want to understand this a little better. I am thinking of perhaps buying a book on it but wanted to ask here first.

First of all I have been also reading David Pawson's book When Jesus Returns. He explains all the eschatological views and the strengths and weaknesses of each, and says no one view is fully adequate in itself, and there is the problem of some scriptures fitting and others not fitting a particular system. To quote from Pawson:

"...no one key unlocks the whole book. Each 'school' has seen some truths, but none has released all. When only one approach is used there is always some manipulation of the text"

"There is no reason why more than one may not be used. Texts have different meanings and application. But some control is needed to avoid the arbitrary use of different approaches to bolster an opinion already decided upon before studying the scripture. This restraint is provided by the context and by constantly asking the question: was this the meaning intended by the divine author and the human writer?"

"Some elements from all four are compatible and can be used in conjunction with each other, though it must be added that are others are quite incompatible, and cannot be combined."


All that said I want to know, if someone can help me what the preterist understanding is as to Christ's prediction of his coming in Matthew 24?
 

LittleLambofJesus

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Hi,
All that said I want to know, if someone can help me what the preterist understanding is as to Christ's prediction of his coming in Matthew 24?
Hello.
I think you will probably find pretty much everything you ever wanted to know about Preterism, and the different "flavors" of it, at this site.

It includes commentaries [including 70ad and Revelation], books, pictures, maps, debates, links to other resources etc.
Hope this helps

https://www.preteristarchive.com/

Preterist Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

Free Online Books , E-Books , Free Books on Fulfilled Eschatology and First Century History @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

Critical Article Archive - Articles Critical of Historical and Modern Preterism @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology
DEBATES BETWEEN FUTURISTS AND ORTHODOX PRETERISTS
Debates on Hyper Preterism Here


Christian History and its Preterist Presuppositions
Early Christian Preterism

(CHRISTIAN WRITINGS FROM AD40 TO 100)
 
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parousia70

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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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Here is a verse by verse Commentary on Matthew 24 I posted here some time back:
Matthew 24, verse by verse - Fulfilled
Hope that helps!
Good thread.

Can a Christian view all of Matthew 24 as fulfilled w/o being labeled a full preterist?
There is a poll thread on that:

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled
Aug 11, 2009


Thread split coming up! Say hi to ChrisBot soon.........

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled (2)


View Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

May 21, 2014


I view all of it fulfilled 39 24.38%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled 66 41.25%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled 22 13.75%

I don't really know 15 9.38%

Other [please explain] 18 11.25%
 
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Residential Bob

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dms1972

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I am tending towards Pawson's approach, I have given my assent to systems in the past then along comes a verse that upsets my little applecart system - so while maybe I don't know enough about that system or I need someone with a better understanding of it to show me how difficult verses can be fitted into it, I tend to think Scripture bursts neat little, easily comprehended systems apart.

That said, I enjoy learning about the different 'schools' of thought.

Is it possible to have answered in this forum, do preterists think their are many comings of Christ?
 
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parousia70

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Is it possible to have answered in this forum, do preterists think their are many comings of Christ?


Well, Christ undeniably "Came" to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, and also "Came" to Stephen at His stoning, both events happening after, and in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

Also, we Catholics affirm that Christ "Comes" every day and is Physically "Present", Body and Blood, in the Eucharist, So I'd have to say an Emphatic "YES" to your question.

There is only ONE "Coming of Christ as a thief" however, and the Glorified Jesus, speaking from His heavenly throne, PROMISED the 1st-century peoples at Sardis that that coming would befall THEM in their Day (Revelation 3:3)

Scripture does not teach He "comes as a thief" multiple times, and Scripture cements His one and only "Theif's Coming" to the 1st century.
 
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dms1972

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Well, Christ undeniably "Came" to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, and also "Came" to Stephen at His stoning, both events happening after, and in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

Also, we Catholics affirm that Christ "Comes" every day and is Physically "Present", Body and Blood, in the Eucharist, So I'd have to say an Emphatic "YES" to your question.

There is only ONE "Coming of Christ as a thief" however, and the Glorified Jesus, speaking from His heavenly throne, PROMISED the 1st-century peoples at Sardis that that coming would befall THEM in their Day (Revelation 3:3)

Scripture does not teach He "comes as a thief" multiple times, and Scripture cements His one and only "Theif's Coming" to the 1st century.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts I had not been thinking of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus as a coming, more of an encounter. I was wondering about Abraham's three visitors however, wasn't one of them the Lord?
 
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Residential Bob

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Well, Christ undeniably "Came" to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, and also "Came" to Stephen at His stoning, both events happening after, and in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

Also, we Catholics affirm that Christ "Comes" every day and is Physically "Present", Body and Blood, in the Eucharist, So I'd have to say an Emphatic "YES" to your question.

There is only ONE "Coming of Christ as a thief" however, and the Glorified Jesus, speaking from His heavenly throne, PROMISED the 1st-century peoples at Sardis that that coming would befall THEM in their Day (Revelation 3:3)

Scripture does not teach He "comes as a thief" multiple times, and Scripture cements His one and only "Theif's Coming" to the 1st century.
He exhorts the believers in Thyatira to do the same. “Hold fast what you have until I come.” (Rv 2:25)

Like I've said, I'm not sure a discussion about the past coming of Christ belongs in this forum, so I'll just say that the elephant in the room that traditional Christianity has missed since the age of the church fathers is that the New Testament, like the Old, was written in the Jewish age. Christ promised to come in judgment at the end of the age - the Jewish age, the generation of the apostles - and as we know from history (including Revelation), judgment fell on Jerusalem at the end of the age.
 
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Residential Bob

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts I had not been thinking of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus as a coming, more of an encounter. I was wondering about Abraham's three visitors however, wasn't one of them the Lord?
We know from Hebrew tradition that the Lord comes to judge in clouds of heaven, and that later, John the Divine sees him already manifested in the church (Rv 1:12-13, 2:1), as does Paul who sees the church as his body. No one knows the day or the hour that the Lord came; we noticed only that he was here.

The apostles started to see him, anyway. Unfortunately, the church fathers did not, and church tradition followed their lead.
 
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parousia70

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He exhorts the believers in Thyatira to do the same. “Hold fast what you have until I come.” (Rv 2:25)

Like I've said, I'm not sure a discussion about the past coming of Christ belongs in this forum, so I'll just say that the elephant in the room that traditional Christianity has missed since the age of the church fathers is that the New Testament, like the Old, was written in the Jewish age. Christ promised to come in judgment at the end of the age - the Jewish age, the generation of the apostles - and as we know from history (including Revelation), judgment fell on Jerusalem at the end of the age.

The Disciples questions in Matt 24 and its parallels certainly testify to that fact.

There they asked Him about His coming "at the end of the Age", which could not possibly be the "Church Age" as the Church age had not yet even begun, nor did they even have the slightest idea WAS coming, when they asked about the age's end...therefore they must have been asking about the end of the Mosaic Age, the age they were born into and were living in when they asked about it's end, which they knew would be marked by the temple's stone by stone destruction.

Not once does Jesus even attempt to "Correct" their professed understanding that the Temple's destruction, Christ's coming in Judgment and the end of the age, were synonymous events.
 
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dms1972

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Well, Christ undeniably "Came" to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, and also "Came" to Stephen at His stoning, both events happening after, and in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

Also, we Catholics affirm that Christ "Comes" every day and is Physically "Present", Body and Blood, in the Eucharist, So I'd have to say an Emphatic "YES" to your question.

There is only ONE "Coming of Christ as a thief" however, and the Glorified Jesus, speaking from His heavenly throne, PROMISED the 1st-century peoples at Sardis that that coming would befall THEM in their Day (Revelation 3:3)

Scripture does not teach He "comes as a thief" multiple times, and Scripture cements His one and only "Theif's Coming" to the 1st century.

But it doesn't say He did come as a thief to the church in Sardis, only that they were warned?
 
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parousia70

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But it doesn't say He did come as a thief to the church in Sardis, only that they were warned?

So He Lied?
Or perhaps was simply mistaken then?
Was Jesus Issuing Empty threats He Had no intention of fulfilling?

Why was He telling those people His Thiefs Coming was going to befall them if He knew it wasn't true?

What are we to think of His character if such a Promise was not fulfilled and Jesus was simply issuing empty threats and lies?
 
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parousia70

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What does it say? You've communicated that it is a significant date in your view but not why its significant?

Luke 21:20-22
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
 
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BABerean2

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All that said I want to know, if someone can help me what the preterist understanding is as to Christ's prediction of his coming in Matthew 24?

Christ was a "partial" preterist in the Olivet Discourse.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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