preterism

[stauron]

just a few questions...if I may jump in ....Luke 21....Christ speaks of signs of his return...but in the middle...he says....but before all these....then he proceeds to explain about being delivered up..then on to the fall of Jerusalem..and the jews being led away into captivity...so now he's past the fall of Jerusalem...anyway..what do preterist consider the fulfillment of...Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles..until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled....

and in Matt.24 verse15...when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...now with the excecption of John...were not the rest of the disciples dead before the temple destruction...

did Josephus write anything pertaining to receiving the mark of Nero to buy or sell...surely he himself would have had to have the mark as well....

Ikester,

Before Jerusalem Fell by Ken Gentry is a great reference for many of these questions [edited to say: this is available to read online]. If you are interested in just a brief overview The Beast of Revelation (also by Gentry) covers some of it.

I don't have time right now to track down the rest, but I will get back to you if my esteemed colleagues don't.

stauron

 

[Toms777]

The tribulation was for the Jews. It was exactly as Jesus predicted it would be.

I believe that the people that heard Jesus' words understood and looked for the signs.
You believe that Jesus mislead the disciples.

Why don't you let me say what I believe.

BTW, I believe that Jesus meant it when he said that when the tribulation occurred that except the days be shortened no flesh would be saved.

Now, can we avoid the large fonts? I can do it just as well as you, but I don't think that it adds to the quality of the discuss.

The exact events that He predicted took place, and if the disciples understood things the way you do they would all have been destroyed in Jerusalem along with the harlot.

 

[stauron]

Why don't you let me say what I believe.

It is very clear what you believe, you have labored the point. The disciple asked a question and Jesus could only answer by confusing them and us and misleading them so that we (or someone still future to us) had warning about the end of the planet. With no indication or contextual clues Jesus switches back and forth about multiple events separated by thousands of years. The discples wouldn't have known before hand whether the siege was the BIG one or not so they had to wait around, when the whole planet wasn't involved they knew it was just a local war that was only leading to the end. Of course it was too late since any of them that waited around to find out were stuck inside city while it was being dismantled and burned to the ground...

Could you please address the context that I have provided about the "worst ever"? Matt 21-24 are all dealing with the same subject, the brood of vipers, the children of the devil, the synagogue of satan, that thought they were God's people but were really faithless covenant breakers. God took the kingdom from them and gave it to another. That generation thought they were the apple of God's eye and God called them faithless and adulterers and killed them for it, that is GREAT TRIBULATION. Suffering for a lie that they told to themselves.Please, oh please, address this. You have continued to ignore this for weeks now. Your definitions and interpretation of these verses is wrong. You are bringing your theology and laying it on top of the text.

Still waiting.

 

[Suede]

Toms777


+++Just trying to get an answer on this point. So far no historical evidence has been presented - the efforts have all been to say that it doesn't mean what it literally says.+++

You ask the wrong question though, and this is what myself and others are saying. Preterism understands that the Bible isn't saying that all the Kosmos will be threatened. It seems that your problem with Preterism lies in your misunderstanding of it. This is typical, I'm not trying to point you out or ruffle your feathers here. But a lot of the flak we catch is based on complete misinformation.

+++As I said, I will be looking at one item at a time, so as soon as the historical evidence is provided or you agree that there is no historical evidence, or until it is clear that it is impossible to get an answer either way, I will continue to look for the histical evidence of this fulfillment.+++
There is historical evidence, but it's not what you presume it to be and that's where our problem is. Let's say that you honestly believe that a car is a pick up truck. Well, when somone shows you an actual pick up truck, you'll say "that's not a pick up truck, what's this long compartment thing in the back, you can't prove it to me." See, the problem is in your initial misunderstanding.
Jesus said that ALL things would be fulfilled. He also said that all those things would be fulfilled within that present generation. Therefore, instead of looking for historical evidence, why don't we reconsider the Bible. As a objective text, you are either right or wrong. This is why the timing issues that are in black and white must be addressed. Futurism has failed to do this so far.

SUEDE

 

[Suede]

Enoch Son,



+++I have not read all the post (time limit) But a Preterism point of view is interesting.+++



I’m glad you do. I too was a futurist at one time, but found Preterism to match up with ALL the Bible and the great thing is there are Historical events that back up it’s ideologies as well, making it not so much a “blind” faith if you know what I mean. Preterism will involve a decent amount of study, but once you get the jist of it, the Bible will open itself to you like never before. There’s a study site with forums that is dedicated to Preterism, you can find it at planetpreterist.com . Also this site, preteristarchive.com is perhaps the largest study site on the net for Preterism. Please take at least a gander at both.



+++ But to go there one most also believe that all where presaved and that nothing is done outside of God's will. Or no free will. +++



True, most Preterists areReformed and are of the “Calvinist” sotoerological belief. However though, this two beliefs are not inseperable. I know Preterists that are not Calvinists.



+++Also Rapture is not in the book. Taken away is 1 thes..+++



Actually, there’s only one theology that believes in the Rapture and that’s Dispensationalism, which is relatively new only being about 150 years old. There’s a lot of Futurists that do not believe the Rapture. The Rapture is based on a misreading of a very, very few verses. Personally, back when I was a Futurist I did not adhere to Rapture doctrine, so Futurism and Rapture theory don’t go hand in hand.



+++Can anybody answer what taken+++



What is taken away with Preterism? All cults based on false prophets, Mormons and JWs and SDAs, Islam is taken away, Rabbinical Judaism has no leg to stand on. Fear of a world leader arising to physically persecute you, the teaching that the church ultimately fails so why even bother spreading God’s Word. Things like that. ;-) All in all, Preterism is an Eschatological belief, you will not find a more dedicated group of Christians out there. Look over the past posts here, see how the Futurists here duck and dodge a lot of issues or just don’t respond to some. Think this is unique? It isn’t. I see this all the time, which makes one question Futurism even more. Take care,


SUEDE

 

[Suede]

Toms777



+++The exact events that He predicted took place,+++



Makes you wonder doesn't it?



+++and if the disciples understood things the way you do they would all have been destroyed in Jerusalem along with the harlot.+++



First, though most of the disciples would see the seige of Jerusalem and the signs, most would be dead by 70 AD when Jerusalem actually fell. Secondly, Jerusalem IS the Harlot. There is no "Jerusalem along with the harlot", Jerusalem IS the Harlot. And Josepheus records no Christian deaths because he states that all the Christians "somehow" knew what was about to happen and fled Jerusalem. Hmmm, who warned them? How did they know? This is where the teachings of Christ and the Disciples comes into play. This is why Revelation was written before the fall, it has a clear warning that God's people are to evacuate the Babylonian harlot.


SUEDE

 

[Suede]

Hi Ikester,





+++just a few questions...if I may jump in ....Luke 21....Christ speaks of signs of his return...but in the middle...he says....but before all these....then he proceeds to explain about being delivered up..then on to the fall of Jerusalem..and the jews being led away into captivity...so now he's past the fall of Jerusalem+++



Actually when you put Luke’s and Matthew’s account together it will make more sense. Here’s a little mini study that shows the parallels of the two. You’ll find Christ is dealing with the same topic here, which is the End of Age.



http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/scott-jack_p_02.html



+++...anyway..what do preterist consider the fulfillment of...Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles..until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled....+++



Like all views, there will be variations on them, especially on things that are more detailed. Example is the abomination of desolation. Preterists understand that this exact event was to happen after Jerusalem was surrounded, but it’s open to debate as to what exactly it was. The important thing is to get the time right first, and then go from there. Jerusalem being trodden down with Gentiles is often explained as the Romans tampling Jerusalem. To save space here’s a link to a study if you are curious,



http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/delgrave-dan_p_01.html



+++and in Matt.24 verse15...when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation...now with the excecption of John...were not the rest of the disciples dead before the temple destruction...+++



Yes, they were. But, Jesus tells them that they will see signs of the end, which they did. Such as when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, they were to know the end was near; the disciples were alive when this happened.

+++did Josephus write anything pertaining to receiving the mark of Nero to buy or sell...surely he himself would have had to have the mark as well....+++



The mark isn’t an actual mark. Believers in Christ are sealed as well, but our seal is not a physical one. Same with the legendary mark of the Beast. The problem arises in that people assume it is a branding, or a computer chip. We need to allow the Bible to explain itself, and in the Bible seals aren’t physical. Take care,



SUEDE

 

[stauron]

Toms777



+++and if the disciples understood things the way you do they would all have been destroyed in Jerusalem along with the harlot.+++



First, though most of the disciples would see the seige of Jerusalem and the signs, most would be dead by 70 AD when Jerusalem actually fell. Secondly, Jerusalem IS the Harlot. There is no "Jerusalem along with the harlot", Jerusalem IS the Harlot. And Josepheus records no Christian deaths because he states that all the Christians "somehow" knew what was about to happen and fled Jerusalem. Hmmm, who warned them? How did they know? This is where the teachings of Christ and the Disciples comes into play. This is why Revelation was written before the fall, it has a clear warning that God's people are to evacuate the Babylonian harlot.


SUEDE

Actually SUEDE old buddy that is a quote from me. I equated the people with the harlot and the buildings with the city. So as the buildings were being taken down and burned the harlot (=synagogue of satan) was being destroyed with it...

I think Toms777 just snipped in the wrong place.

 

[parousia70]

Okay, so we have the first prophecy that we agree was not fulfilled in 70AD.

Tom, Tom, Tom.... I often wonder if you even read my posts.

Tell me, what part of "Therefore no such thing" did you find so confusing that you concluded I meant exactly the opposite of what I said?

Now, since this was a kay factor in scripture regarding the great tribulation, can we now agree that 70AD does not meet the criteria as a "..great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be"? *(Matt 24:21)

We can agree on "NO SUCH THING"

AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

Did you catch that Tom ole' fella?

Due to the COVENENTAL SIGNIFICANCE of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) CAN NEVER BE REPEATED.



--THEREFORE--

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

Did you get that Tom old boy?

THERE IS NO EQUAL to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).


In addition, you clearly overlook the common Old Testament figure of speech Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21: "ever was/nor ever shall be." Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much." Our Lord was simply saying in Matthew 24:21 that there would be very great tribulation. St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:

These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)​

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).



Tom, until you provide a lucid refutation of the above, you remain hopelessly unsubstabntiated in your hollywood fantasyland interpratation of the great tribulation.

It's time to accept the BIBLICAL interpratation, and reject the inventions of men.

 

[armothe]

Now, since this was a kay factor in scripture regarding the great tribulation, can we now agree that 70AD does not meet the criteria as a "..great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be"? *(Matt 24:21)

But see, you are now clearly stating that the seige of Jerusalem was nowhere near as great of a tribulation (significant?) as The Flood in Genesis or the Holocaust of the 20th century were.

With all do respect - how do you know? What makes you an authority on tribulation?

Through your earthly eyes you are arriving at your own definition of what tribulation is.

-A

 

[parousia70]

anyway..what do preterist consider the fulfillment of...Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles..until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled....

well, the Bible explains the fulfillment of Luke 21:24 here:

--compare this--

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

--to this--

Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So we see, this "time of the gentiles" or, "time of Gentile trampling of Jerusalem" was to cease, 42 months after it began.

 

[parousia70]

This is precisely what the preterists try to do with Matt 10:5 and 23. vs. 5 addresses the disciples concerning the, then, present single missionary journey. But with preterist presto-chango, suddenly, vs. 23, like a souped up DeLorean, leaps 35-40 years into the future.

Until they can gain a grasp of how the Bible uses this language, they will be hopelessly stranded in their 1st century, fantasyland, their Bible interpretations running wherever their imaginations wants, spending the rest of their lives twisting, wresting, spiritualizing, metaphorizing, poeticalizing, verse upon verse, speculating on which ancient prophecy they can reinterpret to make it preterist.

Still touting your private interpratation, pretending it is a self evident fact I see.

C'mon Der,

Address your selective agreement with your buddy Gill.

Was AD70 a Coming of Christ in vengeance on His enimies as Gill states it was, or not?

 

[Justme]

Hi Forum,


Something or a scumbucket somebody has goofed up my computer.
As soon as I can I will get back to Toms to find out what idiot told him I would agree that Matthew 24 is NOT fulfilled up to "all these things........"

The rest of you have fun.

Justyme

 

[Suede]

Stauron,

Very good then. As long as we know that they are connected, whether you place it with the people or the buildings.

SUEDE

 

[LibertyChic]

If the Nicene Creed doesn't call the final judgement the"second" coming of Christ, why are preterists banished here with the Mormons & cults?

Hey, you're in good company. All "righteous gentiles" and Rabbinical Jews are thrown in with "Mormons and cults"

 

[Toms777]

It is very clear what you believe, you have labored the point. The disciple asked a question and Jesus could only answer by confusing them and us and misleading them so that we (or someone still future to us) had warning about the end of the planet. With no indication or contextual clues Jesus switches back and forth about multiple events separated by thousands of years. The discples wouldn't have known before hand whether the siege was the BIG one or not so they had to wait around, when the whole planet wasn't involved they knew it was just a local war that was only leading to the end.

Which is why jesus told us specifically what to look for and that is why I am asking for the historical evidence that these things happened exactly as Jesus said that they would happen....but I get more explanations as to why they did not happen that way or why you thing that Jesus meant something other than what he said.

 

[Toms777]

You ask the wrong question though, and this is what myself and others are saying. Preterism understands that the Bible isn't saying that all the Kosmos will be threatened.

The difference is that I am looking at what the Bible is saying and believe that Jesus meant exactly what he said, and am looking for the signs that he said to look for.

You can understand it whatever way that you wish, but if that is not what the Bible says, then you are heading off on the wrong track.

You keep telling me that I am wrong, but I take what the Bible says over your word....nothing personal!

 

[Toms777]

But see, you are now clearly stating that the seige of Jerusalem was nowhere near as great of a tribulation (significant?) as The Flood in Genesis or the Holocaust of the 20th century were.

With all do respect - how do you know? What makes you an authority on tribulation?

Through your earthly eyes you are arriving at your own definition of what tribulation is.

-A

Then show me how 70 AD exceeded the destruction and impact of the flood, the atomic bomb, the holocaust of the Jews in WWII.....

Jesus told us that this was how we were to judge it - don't you think that he knew how we would look at it? Do you think that he told us what to look for and then meant something else to confuse us?

 

[Suede]

Toms777


+++Which is why Jesus told us specifically what to look for+++

Correction, Jesus didn't tell us what to look for. Jesus told his 1st Century Disciples what they were to look for, and he told them in a private conversation.

SUEDE

 

[Suede]

Toms777

+++The difference is that I am looking at what the Bible is saying and believe that Jesus meant exactly what he said, and am looking for the signs that he said to look for.+++

The only problem is that Jesus didn't tell you to look for the signs!

+++You can understand it whatever way that you wish, but if that is not what the Bible says, then you are heading off on the wrong track.+++
That's my line to you. At least I acknowledge that Jesus was talking to his disciples alone.

+++You keep telling me that I am wrong, but I take what the Bible says over your word....nothing personal!+++

But you don't take the Bible for what it says! The Bible says that Christ told his disciples that THEY should look for the signs, because THEY would see them because the signs would take place in THEIR lifetime. Unless you can Biblically prove that the Olivet Discourse was not to the disciples and is instead to us alive in 2004, you must concede.

SUEDE