Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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jgr

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Timtofly

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Remember, the ECFs after AD 70 were not inspired in their writings as were the apostles. We must prefer the apostolic teaching over later inventions where they are shown to be in contradiction.

Proximity to an apostle hardly guarantees correctness of doctrine.
Even the apostles' own congregations were making many errors, as we read all through the NT. How much more have later generations made errors? And remember, both Amillennialism and Millennialism grew up together within 100 years after the death of the apostles--these two teachings are entirely opposed to one another. The ECFs of AD 30-70 alone were inspired.

The apostles and Christ unanimously taught a first-century return, and confirmed it when the tribulation, apostasy, man of sin, antichrist, and return to the Asia Minor churches took place. There is no way to make the bible say otherwise. We have the apostolic confirmation of it in the Holy Bible.

The ECFs were not inspired, and unfortunately we are hard pressed to see them agree on much of anything. We can't find agreement from the ECFs on the nature of Christ, on the ministries and fate of the early apostles, on the canon of scripture, on the Trinity, on the Millennium, on much of anything. It took the councils and creeds of the 300s-400s to begin to establish unity in what we now think of as "essentials of doctrine." All those things were discussed for three centuries, but the broad diversity of opinion and disagreement on those topics among beloved ECFs is dizzying.

In contrast, Preterists hold that the "ECFs" of the years AD 30-70 were authoritative, consistent, and inspired of the Holy Spirit in their doctrine and scriptures. While preterists love the later ECFs as much as futurists do--and find much support for strong partial preterism among the ECFs as well--we still recognize that they were not inspired nor reliable from any consensus standpoint.

If you want the truth, you must trust the ECFs of AD 30-70 that wrote the New Testament letters.
Since John declared Christ on earth for 1000 years, after a resurrection, and after all the OT was fulfilled, then it is safe to say Gentiles still have a chance. Since John wrote between your designated criteria, despite tradition, he can be trusted, and we are still waiting for Revelation to be accomplished. Christ has not reigned on earth for 1000 years after all prophecy was fulfilled. Stating Gentiles are still being brought into the kingdom is proof of that point.
 
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parousia70

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Christ has not reigned on earth for 1000 years after all prophecy was fulfilled. Stating Gentiles are still being brought into the kingdom is proof of that point.
Until the Gentiles have all had a chance to reject God, their last day has not come and gone.

So, Accepting the fact that 4 Gentiles are Born EVERY SECOND, At what point in the future do you say we will reach your criteria of "ALL GENTILES having had the chance to reject God"?

Maybe when you say "all gentiles" you don't really mean ALL?
 
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robycop3

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Then it should be trivially simple for you to provide the requested evidence.

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please. And a link for confirmation.

Meanwhile, from the Benson Commentary, a verbatim excerpt from the Josephus account, affirmed as authentic:

“There was a comet in the form of a fiery sword, which for a year together did hang over the city. Before the first revolt and war, the people being gathered together to the feast of unleavened bread, on the 8th of April, at the 9th hour of the night, there was as much light about the altar and temple as if it had been bright day. This remained half an hour. At the same festival, the inner gate of the temple on the east side, being of massy brass, which required at least twenty men to shut it, was seen at midnight to open of its own accord. Not long after the feast-days, on the 21st of May, before the sun set, were seen in the air chariots and armies in battle array, passing along in the clouds and investing the city. And upon the feast of pentecost, at night, the priests, going into the inner temple to attend their wonted service, said, they first felt the place to move and tremble: after that they heard a voice which said, Let us depart hence."
the comet, of course, was affirmed all over the world. The chariots were not. But Josephus could've been playing the child's game of imagining clouds to be any sort of object or creature that crossed their minds. He mighta imagined chariots, while someone mighta imagined a herd of horses or a school of fish.
 
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robycop3

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You're always asking for "proof" from history of the events surrounding AD70, yet when asked for proof your self, you have none.
According to the latest in genetic studies, 85% of modern Jews are Turkish descendants.
Besides that, all of scripture is against your belief.
Jews were in what's now Turkey long ago & for a good while. And the Jews in Israel fulfilled parts of Isaiah 19 , that Judah would be a terror unto the Egyptians.

And Scripture is certainly NOT against my belief! God said He's gonna unite Judah & Israel into one nation again.
 
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parousia70

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Since John declared Christ on earth for 1000 years,

Chapter and Verse that John Mentions Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years?

Christ has not reigned on earth for 1000 years after all prophecy was fulfilled. Stating Gentiles are still being brought into the kingdom is proof of that point.

The Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) which sole purpouse is to be preached to sinners on earth (Revelation 14:6) has no expiration date. That is why It's called "everlasting". This is not fake news.

Even in the New Heavens and Earth period, We find the Spirit and the Bride calling out from inside the gates of the New Jerusalem, calling out to "all who thirst", to come into the city and drink freely. (Revelation 22:17)

We know that the not yet saved are the only ones who ever "thirst", for we know that after one drink, the believer will thirst no more (John 4:14, John 6:35)

There is no terminus found in scripture to the everlasting gospel opportunity for the not yet saved to "come & drink freely".
 
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But Josephus could've been playing the child's game of imagining clouds to be any sort of object or creature that crossed their minds. He mighta imagined chariots, while someone mighta imagined a herd of horses or a school of fish.

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, Even thousands of thousands; The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy Place." Psalms 68:17.

God's battle strength against His enemies is here characterized as being the chariots of God. In ancient times, this represented the ultimate example of superior military force. If you want to take these chariots of God in Psalms 68:17 as a symbol only, that is possible, but it is also quite possible that this is real, as in Elisha's actually being able to see these celestial horses and chariots of fire surrounding him and his servant. This was no child's game, as you suppose.
 
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Timtofly

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So, Accepting the fact that 4 Gentiles are Born EVERY SECOND, At what point in the future do you say we will reach your criteria of "ALL GENTILES having had the chance to reject God"?

Maybe when you say "all gentiles" you don't really mean ALL?
You are the one who went to infinity and back. If you want to take into consideration trillions of potential Gentiles, the more the merrier, or rebellious.
 
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Timtofly

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Chapter and Verse that John Mentions Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years?



The Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) which sole purpouse is to be preached to sinners on earth (Revelation 14:6) has no expiration date. That is why It's called "everlasting". This is not fake news.

Even in the New Heavens and Earth period, We find the Spirit and the Bride calling out from inside the gates of the New Jerusalem, calling out to "all who thirst", to come into the city and drink freely. (Revelation 22:17)

We know that the not yet saved are the only ones who ever "thirst", for we know that after one drink, the believer will thirst no more (John 4:14, John 6:35)

There is no terminus found in scripture to the everlasting gospel opportunity for the not yet saved to "come & drink freely".
Jesus claims He will return to earth. I thought that was the default NT thought process. Do you have a verse that declares earth off limits to the physical presence of Jesus Christ?
 
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jgr

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the comet, of course, was affirmed all over the world. The chariots were not. But Josephus could've been playing the child's game of imagining clouds to be any sort of object or creature that crossed their minds. He mighta imagined chariots, while someone mighta imagined a herd of horses or a school of fish.

Awaiting evidence other than "could've" and "mighta".

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please. And a link for confirmation.

Meanwhile, from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, an affirmation of Josephus' account:

"...and great signs shall there be from heaven; as comets and blazing stars, a flaming sword, or a comet like one, hanging over Jerusalem, and armies in the air engaged against each other."
 
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claninja

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Remember, the ECFs after AD 70 were not inspired in their writings as were the apostles. We must prefer the apostolic teaching over later inventions where they are shown to be in contradiction.

Proximity to an apostle hardly guarantees correctness of doctrine.
Even the apostles' own congregations were making many errors, as we read all through the NT. How much more have later generations made errors? And remember, both Amillennialism and Millennialism grew up together within 100 years after the death of the apostles--these two teachings are entirely opposed to one another. The ECFs of AD 30-70 alone were inspired.

The apostles and Christ unanimously taught a first-century return, and confirmed it when the tribulation, apostasy, man of sin, antichrist, and return to the Asia Minor churches took place. There is no way to make the bible say otherwise. We have the apostolic confirmation of it in the Holy Bible.

The ECFs were not inspired, and unfortunately we are hard pressed to see them agree on much of anything. We can't find agreement from the ECFs on the nature of Christ, on the ministries and fate of the early apostles, on the canon of scripture, on the Trinity, on the Millennium, on much of anything. It took the councils and creeds of the 300s-400s to begin to establish unity in what we now think of as "essentials of doctrine." All those things were discussed for three centuries, but the broad diversity of opinion and disagreement on those topics among beloved ECFs is dizzying.

In contrast, Preterists hold that the "ECFs" of the years AD 30-70 were authoritative, consistent, and inspired of the Holy Spirit in their doctrine and scriptures. While preterists love the later ECFs as much as futurists do--and find much support for strong partial preterism among the ECFs as well--we still recognize that they were not inspired nor reliable from any consensus standpoint.

If you want the truth, you must trust the ECFs of AD 30-70 that wrote the New Testament letters.


Indeed, the ECFs were not inspired, for their interpretations of eschatological passages in regards to the end of the world in association with the dissolution of the Roman Empire never came to pass.

it’s not hard to see, considering the ecfs interpretation of Daniel 7, as to why the ecfs would associate the end of the world with the end of the Roman Empire, as they actually lived during the Roman Empire….. BUT that has come and gone.

(Interestingly enough while the vision of Daniel 7 has the 4th beast destroyed, the angels interpretation of said vision does not)

So….do we continue to push the goal posts back, and if so, what scriptural evidence do we base it on considering the ecfs beliefs failed to come to pass?



"... We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." - st Jerome

———


“ However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.” - st. Augustine

———

“Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exit himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, for example, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans: so will this also be by the Antichrist, and he by Christ, and it will no longer withhold. And these things Daniel delivered to us with great clearness.” - chrysostom

——

“But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is now drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, three he shall humble, and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.” - Cyril of Jerusalem

———

“These are the things which are spoken of by the prophets as about to happen hereafter: ... The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world?” - lactantius

———-


“The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.” Hippolytus

——-

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."- tertullian

——-

“John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator.

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel”- irenaeus
 
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parousia70

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Do you have a verse that declares earth off limits to the physical presence of Jesus Christ?
Is not the Church itself the very body of Christ on earth?
 
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robycop3

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Chapter and Verse that John Mentions Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years?
EASY !
Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Now, how could the armies of earth try to battle Jesus if He wasn't on earth? As the saints come with Him when He returns, they will be with Him, in the "camp of the saints", ON EARTH. How could the armies of earth surround the camp of the saints if it wasn't on earth?
And at His departure from earth, the angels who were present said He'd retirn IN LIKE MANNER.Now, how did He leave? He ascended FROM THE EARTH.



The Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) which sole purpouse is to be preached to sinners on earth (Revelation 14:6) has no expiration date. That is why It's called "everlasting". This is not fake news.

Even in the New Heavens and Earth period, We find the Spirit and the Bride calling out from inside the gates of the New Jerusalem, calling out to "all who thirst", to come into the city and drink freely. (Revelation 22:17)

We know that the not yet saved are the only ones who ever "thirst", for we know that after one drink, the believer will thirst no more (John 4:14, John 6:35)

There is no terminus found in scripture to the everlasting gospel opportunity for the not yet saved to "come & drink freely".
I have no idea what you're getting at.
 
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robycop3

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"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, Even thousands of thousands; The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy Place." Psalms 68:17.

God's battle strength against His enemies is here characterized as being the chariots of God. In ancient times, this represented the ultimate example of superior military force. If you want to take these chariots of God in Psalms 68:17 as a symbol only, that is possible, but it is also quite possible that this is real, as in Elisha's actually being able to see these celestial horses and chariots of fire surrounding him and his servant. This was no child's game, as you suppose.
The chariots Josephus claims to have seen were his imagination, written to impress Vespasian. Had they actually been seen/heard, it woulda been well-chronicled.
 
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robycop3

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Awaiting evidence other than "could've" and "mighta".

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please. And a link for confirmation.

Meanwhile, from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, an affirmation of Josephus' account:

"...and great signs shall there be from heaven; as comets and blazing stars, a flaming sword, or a comet like one, hanging over Jerusalem, and armies in the air engaged against each other."
thing is, nobody else saw anything but a comet, which was seen worldwide.
The world went right on after AD70, same as it had in AD65.
 
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The chariots Josephus claims to have seen were his imagination, written to impress Vespasian. Had they actually been seen/heard, it woulda been well-chronicled.

Jesus had already said of His generation in Luke 21:11 that "...There will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven..." What part about "fearful sights and great signs from heaven" do you not understand? Jesus included these phenomena along with ALL the list of events He had enumerated in Luke 21:8-35. EVERY ONE OF THEM - including His return - was an imminent event. As Christ told His disciples, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Those "fearful sights and great signs from heaven" were also "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS" in Christ's generation. Josephus recorded when they happened. What do I care if this was possibly done to impress Vespasian? That doesn't change the facts just as Christ stated them, as you are so fond of saying. You certainly are bold in attempting to read the mind and heart motives of that high priest's son, now that we are some 2,000 years down the road from that time.

Any good employee knows very well the general scriptural principle for a work ethic that "Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof: so he that waiteth on his master will be honored." So what if Josephus tried to avoid offending his patron, so that he would benefit by his works being published? That would hardly negate everything he wrote.
 
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jgr

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thing is, nobody else saw anything but a comet, which was seen worldwide.
The world went right on after AD70, same as it had in AD65.

Tacitus affirmed Josephus' account.

Explain how Tacitus is "nobody else".

He was a Roman historian with no need to impress anyone.

Still awaiting your nonexistent evidence.

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please. And a link for confirmation.

Meanwhile, from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

"Both Tacitus and Josephus mention the portent that “Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds, In rank, and squadron, and right form of war;”
and Tacitus tells us how the blind multitude of Jews interpreted these signs in their own favour (Hist. v. 13)."
 
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Timtofly

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Is not the Church itself the very body of Christ on earth?
Were the twelve disciples the corporate body of Christ and all 12 died on the Cross, there never being a virgin birth or physical presence of God on earth?
 
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robycop3

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not for the old covenant Hebrews whom Jesus deemed responsible for all the righteous bloodshed. Their “kosmos” ended
Well, actually, they wanted to do things as before; they just didn't have a temple to di them in, same as today.
 
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