Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[Hammster]

I can defend it quite well from history. You prets are the ones who can't back up your assertions by providing historical evidence of the occurrence of the eschatological events.
But here are the verses you wanted:
Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
This has been fulfilled.

Defend it from history then.

 

[robycop3]

Not quite true. Josephus absolutely excoriated the Roman governor Gessius Florus, and his predecessor Festus.

Festus, and especially Florus, were largely responsible for inflaming Jewish unrest, and each was removed by higher officials for failing to keep the Jews happy. They were not liked by the higher Roman officials such as Vespasian. Thus, Josephus went along with them in denouncing those two.

Now, why were the Caesars concerned toth pleasing the Jews. Because the Jews were a source of income for the empire, & provided many services, especially tentmaking & cloth-weaving, as well as perfumes & spices for the wealthy.

 

[robycop3]

Defend it from history then.

VERY EASY !

Many of the prophesied events in Matt. 24 & in much of Revelation have simply not yet occurred. Let's start with Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

The Jewish flight to Pella occurred BEFORE the first siege of Jerusalem by Vespasian's army. And the AOD did not occur then. In fact, it STILL hasn't occurred!

What will the AOD be? When the antichrist enters the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, occupying it, setting up a statue of himself in it, & proclaiming himself God. The model for it was in the 160s BC when the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes entered the old temple, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig on the altar. No repetition or near-repetition of that event is recorded in history. It would NOT have gone unrecorded by the Jews!

 

[Hammster]

VERY EASY !

Many of the prophesied events in Matt. 24 & in much of Revelation have simply not yet occurred. Let's start with Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

The Jewish flight to Pella occurred BEFORE the first siege of Jerusalem by Vespasian's army. And the AOD did not occur then. In fact, it STILL hasn't occurred!

What will the AOD be? When the antichrist enters the temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, occupying it, setting up a statue of himself in it, & proclaiming himself God. The model for it was in the 160s BC when the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes entered the old temple, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig on the altar. No repetition or near-repetition of that event is recorded in history. It would NOT have gone unrecorded by the Jews!

That’s not proof. That’s just you telling a story. Prove that your story is true.

 

[Hammster]

As to the AoD


“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
— Luke 21:20

That happened.

 

[robycop3]

That’s not proof. That’s just you telling a story. Prove that your story is true.

History proves it. Just study it some.

 

[Hammster]

History proves it. Just study it some.

History proves that Matthew 24 aligns with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Even the “this generation” part.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Festus, and especially Florus, were largely responsible for inflaming Jewish unrest, and each was removed by higher officials for failing to keep the Jews happy. They were not liked by the higher Roman officials such as Vespasian. Thus, Josephus went along with them in denouncing those two.

Now, why were the Caesars concerned toth pleasing the Jews. Because the Jews were a source of income for the empire, & provided many services, especially tentmaking & cloth-weaving, as well as perfumes & spices for the wealthy.

This is all very true. This collaboration of the Jews with the Romans was documented in scripture by Daniel's vision of the "miry clay" being mixed with the "iron" in the feet and toes of the statue made of different metals. Just as Isaiah 64:8 once wrote, "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." This blend of clay (Israel) and iron (Rome) never bonded together very well, just as the collaboration of the Jewish leadership with the Romans was what infuriated the Zealots so much that they fought against it.

You mention quite often that you disregard Josephus because he was biased by his Roman patronage under Vespasian. Why would this necessarily mean that everything he wrote would be false? You and I are in the same boat when it comes to posting on this forum; we are indebted to those who run this forum at their expense, and must abide by the rules which they set forth for its operation. Does this mean you and I can never write the truth because of that "patronage" of the site owners? This is also true of every social media platform. Those who post by their permission are somewhat limited in what is written, since it must pass through the filters put in place.

This was also true of the KJV Bible translators. They did their best work at translating, but in the end it had to pass King James's approval, since he was funding the operation. This of course brought about a certain amount of careful editing of their own work in favor of King James's sentiments on certain subjects. Does this negate the benefit of that translation? Of course not, since God has used that version to great effect, in spite of King James's biased views on certain subjects.

Same thing with Josephus. We understand the limitations brought about by the Roman patronage he was working under, but that doesn't negate the fact that he was an actual eye-witness to most of that time period's events.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The early church spoke in different languages to different linguistic groups. You cannot convince me they were too illiterate.

Here's a study of literacy from an Israeli University concerning 1st century Israel. Illiteracy in the Land of Israel in the first centuries c.e.
Short video on how parchment was made: How Medieval Parchment is Made

The dark ages were called that because the church in Rome, along with Satan himself, turned God's Word into a language that few used much less understood. Then told people only the church could teach what the church deemed necessary. It was taken out of the hands of the true church, and placed beyond reach via human theology.

Here's an excerpt from an article from Zondervan Academic.
"Misconceptions about the Bible in the medieval era"
The problem with the Medieval Bible was not a series of wolves in sheep's clothing stealing the Bible and locking them up.
Rather, it was the climate of northern Europe. In wet, damp climates, the materials changed. Instead of papyrus and parchment, the church used vellum and other types of materials made from animal skins.
There are a lot of pages in a Bible but there's not much skin on a sheep. You’ll need a lot of animals and a lot of processing to be able to make sheets for the Bibles. And you’ll need ink, quills, and a process for copying.
Producing Bibles was an enormously slow process using very expensive materials.
The reason why no one had the Bible in the Middle Ages is because each Bible cost as much as a medium to a large sized house. And even if you could make Bibles for everybody, the literacy rates were so low that handing out Bibles wouldn't help them.
Instead, what was needed were Bibles that would be read in churches. Today, we think of private reading as the only way to read the Bible. But in the Middle Ages, the public reading of the Bible was what made it more accessible to more people.

The church had scribes, and was keeping the Word of God readily available through thousands of manuscripts sent out to all who would gladly recieve them. That only stopped, because some one decided to keep God's Word out of reach.

While it is true the the church had scribes, it is in an overstatement to say they churned out thousands of bibles. They didn't even have a full New Testament until ~400AD. So what ever doctrines they had were limited to the books they had.
From "Gotquestions.org"
How and when was the canon of the Bible put together?
Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.
The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in AD 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John. In AD 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with one book of the Apocrypha) and 26 books of the New Testament (everything but Revelation) were canonical and to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (AD 393) and the Council of Carthage (AD 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

Justification by faith has been around since Noah. It was only emphasized at the time of the Reformation because some were tired of "the church" keeping people in the dark.

Exactly my point. Some of what is clearly stated in the bible has been overrun by the doctrines and traditions of men. The hearsay evidence that John wrote the Revelation in 96AD could have easily caused the church to believe that the second coming was still future. Why would anyone "eagerly wait" for something that isn't coming in their lifetime. 1 Corinthians 1:so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 1:Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[robycop3]

History proves that Matthew 24 aligns with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Even the “this generation” part.

No, many of the events hav not yet occurred. Just no getting past that FACT.

 

[robycop3]

This is all very true. This collaboration of the Jews with the Romans was documented in scripture by Daniel's vision of the "miry clay" being mixed with the "iron" in the legs and feet of the statue made of different metals. Just as Isaiah 64:8 once wrote, "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." This blend of clay (Israel) and iron (Rome) never bonded together very well, just as the collaboration of the Jewish leadership with the Romans was what infuriated the Zealots so much that they fought against it.

You mention quite often that you disregard Josephus because he was biased by his Roman patronage under Vespasian. Why would this necessarily mean that everything he wrote would be false? You and I are in the same boat when it comes to posting on this forum; we are indebted to those who run this forum at their expense, and must abide by the rules which they set forth for its operation. Does this mean you and I can never write the truth because of that "patronage" of the site owners? This is also true of every social media platform. Those who post by their permission are somewhat limited in what is written, since it must pass through the filters put in place.

This was also true of the KJV Bible translators. They did their best work at translating, but in the end it had to pass King James's approval, since he was funding the operation. This of course brought about a certain amount of careful editing of their own work in favor of King James's sentiments on certain subjects. Does this negate the benefit of that translation? Of course not, since God has used that version to great effect, in spite of King James's biased views on certain subjects.

Same thing with Josephus. We understand the limitations brought about by the Roman patronage he was working under, but that doesn't negate the fact that he was an actual eye-witness to most of that time period's events.

Much of what Josephus wrote is likely true, especially the older Jewish history, but his Roman patronage caused him to embellish some of the events of then-recent times. Again, it's funny that only he ,outta several hundred thousand people present in & near Jerusalem, claimed to have seen & heard chariots in the air above the city.

 

[JSRG]

Much of what Josephus wrote is likely true, especially the older Jewish history, but his Roman patronage caused him to embellish some of the events of then-recent times. Again, it's funny that only he ,outta several hundred thousand people present in & near Jerusalem, claimed to have seen & heard chariots in the air above the city.

How many of those "several hundred thousand people" left behind testimonies that we currently have access to?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Again, it's funny that only he ,outta several hundred thousand people present in & near Jerusalem, claimed to have seen & heard chariots in the air above the city.

I'd have to take time to look up the exact reference, but AD 66 was not the only time chariots were seen in the air above Jerusalem. It's somewhere in the book of the Maccabees, that this same vision occurred also back then. On both occasions, the independent kingdom nation of Israel was being formed.

Back under the Maccabees' victories, that kingdom nation lasted for about 80 years. Then it dissolved when Pompey put Judea under tribute to Rome. Then later in AD 66 when the Zealots cast off that Roman yoke and declared themselves a sovereign nation again by breaking their agreement with Rome and beginning to mint their own currency, that independent kingdom nation of Israel was once more in existence. This was the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast, who "was", then "is not", then "is about to arise out of the abyss" as John was writing.

It seems that those visions of chariots in the sky occurred in tandem with the launching of the independent kingdom of Israel on both occasions. Not sure why, but there is a pattern going on here connected with periods of uprisings in Israel. So I don't think this is merely Josephus's imagination running wild. And someone else posting earlier on this subject said there were two other records made of this AD 66 chariots-in-the-sky phenomenon. Tacitus and one other that I would have to look up. But I'm on a workroom deadline again here, so gotta go...

 

[robycop3]

How many of those "several hundred thousand people" left behind testimonies that we currently have access to?

Probably NONE, because there was nothing for them to testify to.

 

[Hammster]

No, many of the events hav not yet occurred. Just no getting past that FACT.

True. Not all. But all up to about verse 41.

 

[JSRG]

Probably NONE, because there was nothing for them to testify to.

Perhaps I did not express my point well. Your complaint is that Josephus is supposedly the only one out of the "several hundred thousand people" in or near Jerusalem who reported on seeing "chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities" (Jewish War 6). The problem here is that we have so few writings from that time period that survive to the present day that even if large numbers did write something down, those writings would be lost.

Thus, for your argument to work, you need to point to people who lived in or around Jerusalem at that time and wrote something that survives to our present day that does not mention it and would presumably have mentioned if it if did occur (i.e. the subject matter of the work was one of contemporary history). Otherwise, the argument doesn't really work. Are there any such people you can point to?

 

[robycop3]

I'd have to take time to look up the exact reference, but AD 66 was not the only time chariots were seen in the air above Jerusalem. It's somewhere in the book of the Maccabees, that this same vision occurred also back then. On both occasions, the independent kingdom nation of Israel was being formed.

Back under the Maccabees' victories, that kingdom nation lasted for about 80 years. Then it dissolved when Pompey put Judea under tribute to Rome. Then later in AD 66 when the Zealots cast off that Roman yoke and declared themselves a sovereign nation again by breaking their agreement with Rome and beginning to mint their own currency, that independent kingdom nation of Israel was once more in existence. This was the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast, who "was", then "is not", then "is about to arise out of the abyss" as John was writing.

It seems that those visions of chariots in the sky occurred in tandem with the launching of the independent kingdom of Israel on both occasions. Not sure why, but there is a pattern going on here connected with an uprising in Israel. So I don't think this is merely Josephus's imagination running wild. And someone else posting earlier on this subject said there were two other records made of this AD 66 chariots-in-the-sky phenomenon. Tacitus and one other that I would have to look up. But I'm on a workroom deadline again here, so gotta go...

No, those "kingdoms" weren't REALLY independent. The Romans simply took their time about re-asserting their authority.

And the kingdoms of Rev. 17 are EMPIRES. There never was an Israeli empire. All those empires ruled over Israel & Judah, or Judah alone.

And there's NO reliable documentation of chariots in the sky. That woulda been a much-noted event!

 

[robycop3]

True. Not all. But all up to about verse 41.

ACTUALLY, only thru V. 28.

 

[robycop3]

Perhaps I did not express my point well. Your complaint is that Josephus is supposedly the only one out of the "several hundred thousand people" in or near Jerusalem who reported on seeing "chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities" (Jewish War 6). The problem here is that we have so few writings from that time period that survive to the present day that even if large numbers did write something down, those writings would be lost.

Thus, for your argument to work, you need to point to people who lived in or around Jerusalem at that time and wrote something that survives to our present day that does not mention it and would presumably have mentioned if it if did occur (i.e. the subject matter of the work was one of contemporary history). Otherwise, the argument doesn't really work. Are there any such people you can point to?

No, unless it's the Jewish priests. However, unusual events such as the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD were recorded by someone somewhere. And chariots in the sky woulda been much-more-unusual than a volcanic eruption. (Just about every eruption of Mt. Aetna back then was recorded by several people.)

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Much of what Josephus wrote is likely true, especially the older Jewish history, but his Roman patronage caused him to embellish some of the events of then-recent times. Again, it's funny that only he ,outta several hundred thousand people present in & near Jerusalem, claimed to have seen & heard chariots in the air above the city.

First of all, the literacy rate was less than 3% in Israel.

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Tacitus was a Roman senator, historian, and was considered one of the greatest Roman historians of his time and described this event. He despised Christianity and was known in his own days to be careful, skeptical, and factual in his works. One of his duties was to supervise foreign religious cults in Rome. His works are used to validate the crucifixion of Christ to historians.

Eusebius Book 3 an excerpt from chapter 5.
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men. But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable, all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire, all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
Chapter 7
The Predictions of Christ

It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.” And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.