Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[trophy33]

That's understandable, but it seems that preterists have overreacted to that and gone too far the other way.


Is the following open to interpretation in terms of whether or not Jesus would come back one day visibly and/or bodily?

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

When Jesus ascended to heaven people literally saw Him before their very eyes go up towards heaven and He literally ascended bodily, right? This passage indicates that He will come back from heaven in the same way/manner in which He ascended to heaven. So, that means He will come back bodily and people will see Him. Do you agree? If not, then this is the kind of thing that makes some of us just as frustrated with preterism as you are with futurism.

I am afraid its not allowed to speculate about it here.

But do you agree that Jesus and apostles, from Matthew to Revelation, expected it to happen soon, in the life time of their generation?

Preterists are trying to follow the timeframe, futurists are trying to follow their understanding of "how". Which inherently makes preterism much simpler and futurism full of complex charts and predictions.

But let us not forget historicism. There are not just those two. Anyway, I think that most Christians do not have any systematic eschatology or they have some unordered mix.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am afraid its not allowed to speculate about it here.

But do you agree that Jesus and apostles, from Matthew to Revelation, expected it to happen soon, in the life time of their generation?

Preterists are trying to follow the timeframe, futurists are trying to follow their understanding of "how". Which inherently makes preterism much simpler and futurism full of complex charts and predictions.

But let us not forget historicism. There are not just those two. Anyway, I think that most Christians do not have any systematic eschatology or they have some unordered mix.

The curse has not been lifted from man and creation. Men still die (Genesis 2:17). Man and the earth is still to be delivered from the bondage of corruption (Genesis 3:18). We still obtain our bread by the sweat of our brow (Genesis 3:18). He still has to contend with thorns and thistles (Genesis 3:18). A woman will still have travail in childbirth (Genesis 3:18).

• The second coming has not occurred.
• The glorification of the elect has not occurred.
• The end of the age has not occurred.
• The last day has not occurred.
• The old corrupt earth is still here.
• Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.
• The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.
• The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

 

[trophy33]

The curse has not been lifted from man and creation. Men still die (Genesis 2:17). Man and the earth is still to be delivered from the bondage of corruption (Genesis 3:18). We still obtain our bread by the sweat of our brow (Genesis 3:18). He still has to contend with thorns and thistles (Genesis 3:18). A woman will still have travail in childbirth (Genesis 3:18).

• The second coming has not occurred.
• The glorification of the elect has not occurred.
• The end of the age has not occurred.
• The last day has not occurred.
• The old corrupt earth is still here.
• Creation has not been delivered from the bondage of corruption.
• The age to come has not arrived in all its perfect glory.
• The new heavens and new earth have not arrived.

As I said, you focus on "how/what". Preterists focus on the time frame "this generation will not pass...".

 

[sovereigngrace]

As I said, you focus on "how/what". Preterists focus on the time frame "this generation will not pass...".

Not so! The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

 

[trophy33]

Not so! The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

The lexical possibilities of the word "genea" will not help you in any substantial way. You need to change tons of words to mean something else.


"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9


"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short."
1 Cor. 7:29

...the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51


"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

...you see the Day approaching
Heb 10:25

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.”
Rev 1:7

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. "
Rev 22:10

"And, behold, I come quickly;"
Rev 22:12

"...Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Rev 22:20

 

[sovereigngrace]

The lexical possibilities of the word "genea" will not help you in any substantial way. You need to change tons of words to mean something else.


"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9


"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short."
1 Cor. 7:29

...the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51


"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

...you see the Day approaching
Heb 10:25

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.”
Rev 1:7

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. "
Rev 22:10

"And, behold, I come quickly;"
Rev 22:12

"...Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Rev 22:20

Not true. The fixation you have with 70AD and the coming of Titus is wrong, unhealthy, dangerous and unbiblical.

 

[trophy33]

Not true. The fixation you have with 70AD and the coming of Titus is wrong, unhealthy, dangerous and unbiblical.

Read the verses. Those are not my creation, so your "not true" does not apply.

And I said nothing about Titus or 70 AD so far.

 

[TribulationSigns]

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

They did see Christ’s kingdom in power at Pentecost when God empowered His people with the Holy Ghost to proclaim the Gospel to the world, Act 1:8. Nothing to do with 70AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not true. The fixation you have with 70AD and the coming of Titus is wrong, unhealthy, dangerous and unbiblical.

Agreed!!

 

[trophy33]

They did see Christ’s kingdom in power at Pentecost when God empowered His people with the Holy Ghost to proclaim the Gospel to the world, Act 1:8. Nothing to do with 70AD.

Cool, a remotely possible explanation for one verse.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not so! The word genea means:

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Different translations and Bible scholars interpret it in different ways. Many good Bible students see it my way, many your way. I do not limit its meaning to a 40-year generation as Preterism must to sustain its school of thought. It can equally and fairly broadly describe time-periods (a literal generation or age) or natural descendants (a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits or men of the same stock).

The root word for genea is genos (Strong’s 1085), which means race, kindred, offspring, family, stock, tribe, nation, i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people.

Acts 13:26 talks about “children of the stock [Gr. genos] of Abraham” and Philippians 3:5 those “of the stock [Gr. genos] of Israel.” The Bible is here speaking in a natural sense.

The root word of genos is ginomai (Strong’s 1096), which literally means to gen-erate.

Matthew 24:34 is telling us that the Jewish race would not pass away until all things are fulfilled. Israel is an ongoing generation.

Find out what generation Christ actually talked about.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They did see Christ’s kingdom in power at Pentecost when God empowered His people with the Holy Ghost to proclaim the Gospel to the world, Act 1:8. Nothing to do with 70AD.

True!

 

[Jipsah]

I'm not much into creeds, I'm into scripture.

So you can't or won't summarize your beliefs, and if asked what you believe you recite the Bible, beginning in Genesis. Right.

So, it seems that your belief is based on scripture

Imagine that!

and not just on the creed then?

Nobody's beliefs are based solely on the creeds. The creeds are simply, as I stated before, a condensed verson of what Christians have felt to be the most essential Christ beliefs drawn from Scripture. Unless you're incredibly obtuse, you know that as well as I do. If you legitimately didn't know that, thn you're hardly qualified to comment on what any Christian ought to believe on any matter of faith.

That's all you had to say. I know of someone who believes that Jesus will return because of what he read in that creed (or maybe some other creed, I can't recall), but not on anything he sees in scripture. So, that's why I asked.

Wow, maybe you actually are that obtuse, or at least would like it to seem so. I don't see how feigning ignorance of basic Christian precepts could lend any credibilty to your doctrinal declarartions, though.

 

[Jipsah]

I It seems that your real problem is with the owners of this site not allowing full preterism to be promoted here.

Considering that I'm an orthodox preterist, that's hardly likely, now is it?

 

[Jipsah]

No, we're not partial preterists.

If you believe that any of our Lord's prophecies. such as those involving the Temple or the Roman sack of Jerusalem, have actually been fulfilled, then you're a partial preterist, end of.

Agreeing with them on a few things doesn't make us one of them.

Why do you think we're called "preterists"? <Laugh>

There was no sleazy attack. Good grief. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable on a site that allows full preterist views to be shared.

Perhaps you'd be more comfortable on a site where peple accepted your nonsensical accusations of people whose doctrinal positions you don't understand without challenging them., You've come to the wrong shop here.

Come on. You're better than this. You asked "how many times does our Lord return in your doctrine?". So, the answer is one time.

I'm glad to hear that! Did you come to that belief from the study of Scripture, or from one of Brother Bob's sermons? (See how easily that sort of thing can be turned on you?)

I'm not familiar with that acronym. Does that mean Dispensational Futurists? If so, that is definitely not his lot.

Where do you differ from them?

 

[Jipsah]

What is wrong with you?

A chronic intolerance of people who make pronouncements on other people's beliefs about which you quite obviously know little or nothing.

You've come to inveigh against preterists, of whom you appear to know next to nothing. You rail against their beliefs, while telling us nothing of your own., Why shoukld we believe you? You've given us no reason to consider you an authority on anything at all. You could be a Jehovah's Witness or some other brand of fringie for all we know. We're simply to accept your rubbish based on how wildly you wave your arms. Sorry, no worky.

 

[Jipsah]

Just because you can quote a creed means nothing. Many have an intellectual knowledge of truth.

Oh, is there where you determine how much more spiritual you are than I am? Nothing more likely; I've found that when people proclaim how "spiritual" they are also tend to be the most likely to embrace the the doctrinal fad du jour. Their claim is generally "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual." That generally translates to "whatever doctrine feels right". I'll go the other way; I'm religious but not spiritual. A fig for your feelings, what does the Scripture say?

The Preterist lack of desire in speaking about Christ and His glorious future Advent is massive red flag and damning to their doctrine.

What details of our Lord's glorious future advent do they appear to be missing, or uninterested in? Let's have some specifics here.

 

[Jipsah]

This is the Preterist default when they are challenged - ad hominem.

Spare me. You come in guns blazing, making unsuported allegations, then whine when you're called to task for them.

Your responses reinforce the Op. For that I am grateful.\

Yep, time to declare a victory, innit? Off ya go then!

 

[sovereigngrace]

A chronic intolerance of people who make pronouncements on other people's beliefs about which you quite obviously know little or nothing.

You've come to inveigh against preterists, of whom you appear to know next to nothing. You rail against their beliefs, while telling us nothing of your own., Why shoukld we believe you? You've given us no reason to consider you an authority on anything at all. You could be a Jehovah's Witness or some other brand of fringie for all we know. We're simply to accept your rubbish based on how wildly you wave your arms. Sorry, no worky.

Anyone, in your mind who challenges Preterism, is "a Jehovah's Witness or some other brand of fringie." How sad! This shows how vulnerable Preterism is.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Spare me. You come in guns blazing, making unsuported allegations, then whine when you're called to task for them.

Yep, time to declare a victory, innit? Off ya go then!

You have avoided every point. You have to. To address it would be to renounce Preterism.