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Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

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Here is what happens to those who fight against Jerusalem on that day.


And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,

And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12


Did this happen to the Roman soldiers in 70 AD?
No, it didn't happen to the Romans. This plague in Zechariah 14:12 happened to the competing Zealot armies within the city of Jerusalem. Their civil strife ended up causing starvation so abrupt and overwhelming that the inhabitants of Jerusalem wasted away and were dying daily by the cartload, according to Josephus's records.

It was the ZEALOTS coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" who were the ones fighting against Jerusalem with their insane, suicidal activities; Stealing from or murdering those citizens suspected of having any wealth or of trying to defect to the Romans. Again, Josephus testified that the Zealots' internecine warfare caused more misery to their own people than their Roman overlords had ever brought upon them.

Zechariah 14:1-7


Did this happen in 70 AD?
This text reads somewhat differently in the LXX. This breaking up of the Mount of Olives was fulfilled by a documented earthquake that left deep layers of landslide rubble from the Mount of Olives that are presently lying in the Kidron Valley - dated to a period around AD 70 - with another layer of landslide rubble beneath it dated to King Uzziah's time.
 
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JLB777

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No, it didn't happen to the Romans. This plague in Zechariah 14:12 happened to the competing Zealot armies within the city of Jerusalem. Their civil strife ended up causing starvation so abrupt and overwhelming that the inhabitants of Jerusalem wasted away and were dying daily by the cartload, according to Josephus's records.

It was the ZEALOTS coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" who were the ones fighting against Jerusalem with their insane, suicidal activities; Stealing from or murdering those citizens suspected of having any wealth or of trying to defect to the Romans. Again, Josephus testified that the Zealots' internecine warfare caused more misery to their own people than their Roman overlords had ever brought upon them.

Sorry but the day of the Lord has not happened yet.

There is nothing in the scripture of Zechariah 14, that mentions or suggests anything about ZEALOTS from Galilee.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
Zechariah 14:1-2


Now if the scripture said… I will gather all the ZEALOTS from Galilee to do battle at Jerusalem, then you would have a point.


Please stop making up things that are not in scripture.





JLB
 
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JLB777

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This text reads somewhat differently in the LXX. This breaking up of the Mount of Olives was fulfilled by a documented earthquake that left deep layers of landslide rubble from the Mount of Olives that are presently lying in the Kidron Valley - dated to a period around AD 70 - with another layer of landslide rubble beneath it dated to King Uzziah's time.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:1-4


Again, the scripture is clear.

Jesus Christ Himself will fight against those nations who come against Jerusalem.

Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,


Did Jesus Christ Himself fight against the Romans in 70 AD?


The answer as we all know, is NO!



The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, because the Lord did not fight against them.


Zechariah 14 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 70 AD.





JLB
 
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Sorry but the day of the Lord has not happened yet.

There is nothing in the scripture of Zechariah 14, that mentions or suggests anything about ZEALOTS from Galilee.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
Zechariah 14:1-2


Now if the scripture said… I will gather all the ZEALOTS from Galilee to do battle at Jerusalem, then you would have a point.


Please stop making up things that are not in scripture.
Actually, that is "DAYS (plural) of the Lord" in the LXX for Zechariah 14:1 You remember, the very same "One of the DAYS of the Son of Man" that Christ told the disciples that they would be longing to see (Luke 17:22).

The entire intact prophecy from Zechariah 12:1 through Zechariah 14:15 was giving details of the AD 66-70 Great Tribulation and "the siege both against Judah and Jerusalem" in particular. The Zealot factions in the first-century days were most definitely part of fighting against the status quo from Judah and Jerusalem which had held the country in subjection to Roman governance.

The Zealots were presented in scripture as having their point of origin in "Galilee of the Gentiles", or "Galilee of the nations" (ethne). Surely you remember Christ's converted Zealot disciple named "Simon Zelotes" or "Simon the Zealot". And the insurrectionist against Rome called "Judas the Galilean" in Acts 5:37. "Galilee of the nations" was the Zealots' home turf where rebellion against Rome was simmering in those days.

Zealotry was a growing threat in Christ's days of ministry. It pitted family members in one house against each other; between those who wanted to preserve the status quo for the sake of peace and / or financial security, and those who could not any longer endure having the Romans in power over the nation. Christ foretold that "from henceforth" there would be increasing family division with son against father, daughter against mother, etc. (Luke 12:51-53). Even Christ's crucifixion event included two Zealots who were crucified on either side of Him. Barabbas who was released instead of Christ was a Zealot leader who had committed murder in an insurrection against Rome (Mark 15:7).

The Zealots hated Rome so much that they were even eager to kill any of their own people who were suspected of being a Roman collaborator or sympathizer. When they came from "Galilee of the nations" and got into Jerusalem in AD 66, they fought against their own people to keep control of the city so that it would not be tempted to surrender to Rome again.

Each of the competing Zealot leaders thought that they could fulfill Daniel's prophesied role of "Messiah the Prince", who they thought would be a great military commander that would conquer their Roman overlords. These Zealot leaders with their mixed bag of mercenary followers were the "nations" which Christ intended to crush by the end of that Great Tribulation, as Zechariah (and Ezekiel) had predicted .
 
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The Roman soldiers destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, because the Lord did not fight against them.
Of course. God employed the Roman soldiers as "HIS armies" (as in the Matthew 22:7 parable) to "destroy those murderers" and to "burn up their city" of Jerusalem in AD 70.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Is there a gap in this block of time that goes from 70AD all the way until the return of Jesus is 42 months away?

Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Re:11:1-2:
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:
and the angel stood,
saying,
Rise,
and measure the temple of God,
and the altar,
and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out,
and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles:
and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Of course. God employed the Roman soldiers as "HIS armies" (as in the Matthew 22:7 parable) to "destroy those murderers" and to "burn up their city" of Jerusalem in AD 70.
It was to fulfill a prophecy. You seem to be mocking Christians, really. Would you describe Neb in the same terms?

Jer:25:4-9:
And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets,
rising early and sending them;
but ye have not hearkened,
nor inclined your ear to hear.
They said,
Turn ye again now every one from his evil way,
and from the evil of your doings,
and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:
And go not after other gods to serve them,
and to worship them,
and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands;
and I will do you no hurt.
Yet ye have not hearkened unto me,
saith the LORD;
that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Because ye have not heard my words,
Behold,
I will send and take all the families of the north,
saith the LORD,
and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon,
my servant,
and will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof,
and against all these nations round about,
and will utterly destroy them,
and make them an astonishment,
and an hissing,
and perpetual desolations.

Should Rome (Romans:13 sword) have refused God's request to fulfill this determination by God. Jonah tried that, he went to hell for 3 days for his efforts. Neb did what God wanted and he was given a reward:
Da:4:36-37:
At the same time my reason returned unto me;
and for the glory of my kingdom,
mine honour and brightness returned unto me;
and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me;
and I was established in my kingdom,
and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.
 
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Is there a gap in this block of time that goes from 70AD all the way until the return of Jesus is 42 months away?

Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Re:11:1-2:
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:
and the angel stood,
saying,
Rise,
and measure the temple of God,
and the altar,
and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out,
and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles:
and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
You mistake what that "times of the Gentiles" is composed of. Those PLURAL "TIMES" were to last for the 42 months from beginning to end of treading Jerusalem underfoot between late AD 66 until AD 70. As Daniel 12:7 had predicted, it would take "a time, times, and half a time" (plural "times") to "shatter the power of the holy people". That is the length of time it took for the city of Jerusalem to be trampled down by the CIVIL WAR within its walls being fought between the competing Zealot factions inside the city.

These Zealot factions had emerged from their home turf in "Galilee of the GENTILES". Galilee was the hotbed zone that bred this rebellious Zealot ideology in Israel in those days surrounding Christ's earthly ministry and beyond. These Zealot leaders came from "Galilee of the GENTILES" into the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 to take control of the city. Between the various Zealot factions fighting each other for primary leadership of Jerusalem, they all trod Jerusalem underfoot for those "TIMES" until the 42 months was fulfilled. Those "TIMES of the Gentiles" composed of 42 months of Zealot infighting took place before AD 70 concluded - not after.
 
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It was to fulfill a prophecy. You seem to be mocking Christians, really. Would you describe Neb in the same terms?
I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your question. Yes, I believe the parable about God the "King" sending forth "His armies" (the Roman forces) to destroy the murderers and burn up their city (of Jerusalem) really was a prophetic prediction to the religious leaders in Jerusalem that would take place - in their own future. How is this the equivalent of my "mocking Christians"?
 
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Wayne Gabler

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You mistake what that "times of the Gentiles" is composed of. Those PLURAL "TIMES" were to last for the 42 months from beginning to end of treading Jerusalem underfoot between late AD 66 until AD 70. As Daniel 12:7 had predicted, it would take "a time, times, and half a time" (plural "times") to "shatter the power of the holy people". That is the length of time it took for the city of Jerusalem to be trampled down by the CIVIL WAR within its walls being fought between the competing Zealot factions inside the city.

These Zealot factions had emerged from their home turf in "Galilee of the GENTILES". Galilee was the hotbed zone that bred this rebellious Zealot ideology in Israel in those days surrounding Christ's earthly ministry and beyond. These Zealot leaders came from "Galilee of the GENTILES" into the city of Jerusalem in AD 66 to take control of the city. Between the various Zealot factions fighting each other for primary leadership of Jerusalem, they all trod Jerusalem underfoot for those "TIMES" until the 42 months was fulfilled. Those "TIMES of the Gentiles" composed of 42 months of Zealot infighting took place before AD 70 concluded - not after.
If the Da:11 passages includes the first few verses of Da:12 then you assessment is in error.
Your reference then comes to be about the 70 weeks in Da:9, Time equals the block of 7 weeks, times is the block of 62 weeks, division is about the division of the 70 week. It starts with God calling John 3 1/2 years before the day Jesus died. 3 1/2 years later, Acts:10 saw Peter teaching Gentiles about the 4 Gospels. That was the last day of the 70 weeks.

You do agree that Luke:21:12-24 is about the Apostles in Jerusalem between Stephen being killed and the 70AD scattering,. . . Right?
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Actually, the gap began when Messiah was "cut off"(crucified) in the middle of the 7 weex. Those weex will resume when the beast/antichrist comes to power & end when Jesus returns.
I see John the Baptist being called as High Priest as being what 'cut Jesus off' from starting His ministry the full 3 1/2 years needed to become thge sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.
It's take their combined ministry to make 3 1/2 years. John had to be in place to be a witness. He also had to be as holy as Moses for it to mean anything.

Mal:3:1:
Behold,
I will send my messenger,
and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord,
whom ye seek,
shall suddenly come to his temple,
even the messenger of the covenant,
whom ye delight in:
behold,
he shall come,
saith the LORD of hosts.

Joh:1:6-9:
There was a man sent from God,
whose name was John.
The same came for a witness,
to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light,
but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

M't:3:13-15:
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John,
to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him,
saying,
I have need to be baptized of thee,
and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him,
Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.

M't:4:12:
Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison,
he departed into Galilee;
 
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If the Da:11 passages includes the first few verses of Da:12 then you assessment is in error.
Your reference then comes to be about the 70 weeks in Da:9, Time equals the block of 7 weeks, times is the block of 62 weeks, division is about the division of the 70 week. It starts with God calling John 3 1/2 years before the day Jesus died. 3 1/2 years later, Acts:10 saw Peter teaching Gentiles about the 4 Gospels. That was the last day of the 70 weeks.

You do agree that Luke:21:12-24 is about the Apostles in Jerusalem between Stephen being killed and the 70AD scattering,. . . Right?
Yes, we agree on that part. And that period Luke wrote about culminated in Luke 21:24 with the "TIMES (plural) of the Gentiles" being fulfilled by the end of AD 70.

But the phrase "time, times, and half a time" refer to a year, a couple years, and half of a year. This interpretation we can arrive at by comparing another period of time that likewise lasted for "a time, times, and half a time" that the woman dwelt in her prepared place in the wilderness. This was linked with the 1,260 DAYS that she dwelt there being fed (Revelation 12:6 cp. Revelation 12:14). Those "time, times, and half a time" for the woman amounted to a total of 42 months. Just like the "times of the Gentiles" treading Jerusalem underfoot only lasted a similar amount of time for 42 months. A literal 1,260 days / 42 months from the time the Zealots overtook Jerusalem in late AD 66, and when the Romans overtook them in AD 70.

The 70-week discussion is a different period of time from this "time, times, and half a time". Two separate issues. (BTW, those no-gap 70 weeks of that Daniel 9 prophecy lasted from 454 BC's decree in Artaxerxes' 20 year of his reign until AD 37.)
 
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Yes, we agree on that part. And that period Luke wrote about culminated in Luke 21:24 with the "TIMES (plural) of the Gentiles" being fulfilled by the end of AD 70.

But the phrase "time, times, and half a time" refer to a year, a couple years, and half of a year. This interpretation we can arrive at by comparing another period of time that likewise lasted for "a time, times, and half a time" that the woman dwelt in her prepared place in the wilderness. This was linked with the 1,260 DAYS that she dwelt there being fed (Revelation 12:6 cp. Revelation 12:14). Those "time, times, and half a time" for the woman amounted to a total of 42 months. Just like the "times of the Gentiles" treading Jerusalem underfoot only lasted a similar amount of time for 42 months. A literal 1,260 days / 42 months from the time the Zealots overtook Jerusalem in late AD 66, and when the Romans overtook them in AD 70.

The 70-week discussion is a different period of time from this "time, times, and half a time". Two separate issues. (BTW, those no-gap 70 weeks of that Daniel 9 prophecy lasted from 454 BC's decree in Artaxerxes' 20 year of his reign until AD 37.)
That is when the time of the Gentiles began. The Apostles began teaching in the nations after they left Jerusalem. This verse even mentions that scattering. The prophecies are included:
Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.

De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

Eze:36:19:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

70AD:
Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

42 months left
Lu:21:25:
And there shall be signs in the sun,
and in the moon,
and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity;
the sea and the waves roaring;

Ending verses stop so how the time of the Gentiles could be inserted in those years they were in Jerusalem before 70AD;
Lu:21:11:
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places,
and famines,
and pestilences;
and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Insert the 1st 4 trump verse here

'Before' starts in 33AD
Lu:21:12:
But before all these,
they shall lay their hands on you,
and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues,
and into prisons,
being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

The temple being measured is the Re:4 one. The prayers of Christian make it to that Altar.
Re:11:2:
But the court which is without the temple leave out,
and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles:
and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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That is when the time of the Gentiles began
No, no, it's not a SINGLE "time" for those "Gentiles", it is PLURAL "TIMES". Which was referring to "a time, and times, and half a time" - the 42 months in which the holy city was to be trodden underfoot. This was the exact amount of time for those Zealots coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" to trample the city - even before Titus came to finish them off in the spring of AD 70.

Here is a quote by one of the former high priests Jesus ben Gamala in a speech he gave reproving his own countrymen for their actions in Jerusalem during that AD 66-70 period.

"And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves." (Wars 4.4.3) Jesus ben Gamala was referring to the Zealot factions which had been plaguing the inhabitants of the city at that time.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Here is a quote by one of the former high priests Jesus ben Gamala in a speech he gave reproving his own countrymen for their actions in Jerusalem during that AD 66-70 period.
Which NT book did he write? If it is none, why are you bothering to listen to unskilled men?
 
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Which NT book did he write? If it is none, why are you bothering to listen to unskilled men?
I'm showing how recorded history only confirms the fulfillment of prophecies of scripture. That seems to be the charge against Preterism given by the OP - that he contends there is not any documented evidence of fulfillment (which is certainly not true).

This "trampling" of Jerusalem was also prophesied by Zechariah 12:2-3 in the LXX. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem as trembling door-posts to all the nations round about, and in Judea there shall be a siege against Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in that day that I will make Jerusalem a TRODDEN STONE to all the nations: every one that TRAMPLES ON IT shall utterly mock at it, and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it."

This was a prediction of the AD 66-70 siege of Jerusalem, when the Zealots coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" came to Jerusalem and trampled the city underfoot for 42 months by their civil warfare within the city.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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The part you can't show is they were honest men backed up by Christians rather than false Christian. Was Luthert a Romans:13 Christian or was he at war with Roman Christians?

Martin Luther was a German priest, theologian, author, composer, former Augustinian friar,[3] and is best known as a seminal figure in the Protestant Reformation and as the namesake of Lutheranism.

Luther was ordained to the priesthood in 1507. He came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church; in particular, he disputed the view on indulgences.
.
.
In 1501, at age 17, he entered the University of Erfurt, which he later described as a beerhouse and whorehouse.[18] He was made to wake at four every morning for what has been described as "a day of rote learning and often wearying spiritual exercises."[18] He received his master's degree in 1505.[19]

How many history books paint him as being a saint rather than the controlled man he really was. If you want to do a history lesson, let's do the whole of the Christian Reformation Wars in Europe that started not long after England exiled the Norman Bankers in 1291AD.
 
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The fact is, most everything the Lord prophesies can be said to "seem" to be talking about something that it wasn't. I'm sure that when the Lord told Abraham to get out of the country and go to a land that would be shown him, and God would make of him a great nation, it "seemed" to be prophesying of his physical seed, the Jews only. Until we compare parallel passages that his seed shall be multiplied as the stars of heaven, and in his seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed which applies to all Elect, Jews and Gentiles. Only then do we see the "true" meaning of the prophecy. We can say that about a hundred different prophecies because it's nothing new. The prophecy of Elijah coming before Christ's first advent "seemed" to be talking about literal Elijah, but comparing scripture with scripture we see that it wasn't. It actually was a prophecy of John the Baptist. When Christ threw the buyers and sellers out of the Holy Temple and prophesied that the Jews would destroy the Temple and He would rebuild it in three days, it "seemed" to be talking about the physical temple, but it wasn't. My point being, just because something "seems" to correlate to AD 70 doesn't mean that it does. There is not one single word about AD 70 in Holy writ, there is only the conclusions of men based primarily on the writings of Josephus (which scholars agree are clearly biased) detailing what took place in AD 70. God simply doesn't leave the interpretation of His book up to secular writers.

Therefore, the doctrines of Preterism are incorrect.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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The fact is, most everything the Lord prophesies can be said to "seem" to be talking about something that it wasn't. I'm sure that when the Lord told Abraham to get out of the country and go to a land that would be shown him, and God would make of him a great nation, it "seemed" to be prophesying of his physical seed, the Jews only. Until we compare parallel passages that his seed shall be multiplied as the stars of heaven, and in his seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed which applies to all Elect, Jews and Gentiles. Only then do we see the "true" meaning of the prophecy. We can say that about a hundred different prophecies because it's nothing new. The prophecy of Elijah coming before Christ's first advent "seemed" to be talking about literal Elijah, but comparing scripture with scripture we see that it wasn't. It actually was a prophecy of John the Baptist. When Christ threw the buyers and sellers out of the Holy Temple and prophesied that the Jews would destroy the Temple and He would rebuild it in three days, it "seemed" to be talking about the physical temple, but it wasn't. My point being, just because something "seems" to correlate to AD 70 doesn't mean that it does. There is not one single word about AD 70 in Holy writ, there is only the conclusions of men based primarily on the writings of Josephus (which scholars agree are clearly biased) detailing what took place in AD 70. God simply doesn't leave the interpretation of His book up to secular writers.

Therefore, the doctrines of Preterism are incorrect.
There are 3 that I know of:
De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

Eze:36:19:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.

Plus Luke:21:24 of course.
 
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