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Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

TribulationSigns

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There are 3 that I know of:
De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.

Eze:36:19:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.

Plus Luke:21:24 of course.

What are you talking about? Your point is?
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The fact is, most everything the Lord prophesies can be said to "seem" to be talking about something that it wasn't. I'm sure that when the Lord told Abraham to get out of the country and go to a land that would be shown him, and God would make of him a great nation, it "seemed" to be prophesying of his physical seed, the Jews only. Until we compare parallel passages that his seed shall be multiplied as the stars of heaven, and in his seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed which applies to all Elect, Jews and Gentiles. Only then do we see the "true" meaning of the prophecy. We can say that about a hundred different prophecies because it's nothing new. The prophecy of Elijah coming before Christ's first advent "seemed" to be talking about literal Elijah, but comparing scripture with scripture we see that it wasn't. It actually was a prophecy of John the Baptist. When Christ threw the buyers and sellers out of the Holy Temple and prophesied that the Jews would destroy the Temple and He would rebuild it in three days, it "seemed" to be talking about the physical temple, but it wasn't. My point being, just because something "seems" to correlate to AD 70 doesn't mean that it does. There is not one single word about AD 70 in Holy writ, there is only the conclusions of men based primarily on the writings of Josephus (which scholars agree are clearly biased) detailing what took place in AD 70. God simply doesn't leave the interpretation of His book up to secular writers.

Therefore, the doctrines of Preterism are incorrect.
OK, give me the date of anything in the bible without going outside the bible.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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OK, give me the date of anything in the bible without going outside the bible.
Why restrict truth to just time. Is the 'he' in Da:9 Satan or God, based on these two verses? How many believe something completely different to what the text actually says. They seem to be listening to unskilled men more that the words God left us.

Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;
Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Pontus came to Judea in 26AD, the only back to back Sabbath around that time was in 30AD.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Adding more from the Bible won't help you. Perhaps you should start replying to just the parts you do understand from now on.

No, it was your misapplying of Scripture and you still do not make any sense. Sorry.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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No, it was your misapplying of Scripture and you still do not make any sense. Sorry.
No need to be sorry, it only shows my extensive reading has paid dividends, while your reading skills do not allow you to understand what is written in the Bible, no matter how clear the text is to others.
You would also argue that ego and vanity is a big part of a non-believers world.

Explain what 'few in numbers' mean in your world. In mine it is the 144,000 that are saved from the fate that will befall all the 12 tribe members before the return can happen:

Eze:39:22-25:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;

You can also explain what 'so fell they all by the sword.' means. Most posters don't do a point by point reply, they reply to parts they can mock and deny and totally avoid the parts they have no rational argument against.
 
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TribulationSigns

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No need to be sorry, it only shows my extensive reading has paid dividends,

Paid dividends? From your extensive reading? Oh, mine! That is pride talking. Knowledge does not come from extensive reading, it comes from the Spirit.

while your reading skills do not allow you to understand what is written in the Bible,

Based on only dealing with me for one day? You have no idea where I come from yet. :)

Explain what 'few in numbers' mean in your world. In mine it is the 144,000 that are saved from the fate that will befall all the 12 tribe members before the return can happen:

Eze:39:22-25:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;

You can also explain what 'so fell they all by the sword.' means. Most posters don't do a point by point reply, they reply to parts they can mock and deny and totally avoid the parts they have no rational argument against.

Oh, you think God is having a head count of literally 144,000 Jews from the 12 physical tribes of Israel really? Do you understand exactly what is the whole house of Israel?

Ezekkiel 37:9-12
  • "Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
  • So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
  • Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
  • Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel."

Are the dry bones in the valley only limited to 144,000 men? No, we can't misapply scriptures about the whole house of Israel, this is not a prophecy of literal 144,000 dead bodies rising or the rise of national Isreal, but of the spiritually dead, and how they are resurrected in Christ into the true Promised land. the prophecy of the sign that is a figure of the Spiritual!

You need to study the spiritual signification of 144,000 (eg. mulitpy of 12 and 10) which only be all the fullness of the tribes or families of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, including the saved Jews and Gentiles from the Old Testament and New Testament, bar none! That is the FULL BODY OF CHRIST, the whole house of Israel!
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Ok, where does the bible say that?
The Bible points to these parameters being in place when God called John.
Lu:3:1-3:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea,
and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee,
and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis,
and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests,
the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan,
preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Try to find any history book that gives a different date.
This is how I found 30AD was the years Passover was the day before the weekly sabbath. (it was for some people that were trying to date the 70 weeks of years.
Fri. Apr. 7
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The Bible points to these parameters being in place when God called John.
Lu:3:1-3:
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea,
and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee,
and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis,
and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests,
the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan,
preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Try to find any history book that gives a different date.
This is how I found 30AD was the years Passover was the day before the weekly sabbath. (it was for some people that were trying to date the 70 weeks of years.
Fri. Apr. 7
Which is exactly my point. One cannot find a complete date in the bible without resorting to outside sources, in this case a history book. So when brother "TribulationSigns" says 70ad isn't in the bible, neither is anything else.
Therefore, since his claim that the date of 70ad not being in the bible made Preterism false, is falsified itself. Otherwise the whole bible is falsified.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Which is exactly my point. One cannot find a complete date in the bible without resorting to outside sources, in this case a history book. So when brother "TribulationSigns" says 70ad isn't in the bible, neither is anything else.
Therefore, since his claim that the date of 70ad not being in the bible made Preterism false, is falsified itself. Otherwise the whole bible is falsified.

No, I say that the doctrine of Preterism by inserting 70AD into the Word of God is false. Preterism is simple an opinion of man.

Not to sound arrogant, but God's word is not subject to anyone's opinions, including mine. There are entirely too many "opinions" in the church and not enough acceptance of the "witness of Scripture." In other words, acceptance of man's opinion of what Scripture means, and not of what Scripture actually says. I see very little Biblical validation of the different views held, only a lot of vain justifications of them (Formula: God said A and B, but He actually meant C.) In reality, if we accept what God actually said, then there is no reason for added personal opinion. God said that Christ came and established His Kingdom, rules in it as Lord now, and those who are saved live and reign with Him in this established New Testament Israel. There's no need for opinions of Him coming to establish and reign in another Kingdom on earth. God's word explicitly says He is reigning now and His kingdom is now, and His people reign with him in that kingdom. Man's personal opinions about another millennial period, 70AD, one man antichrist, Two Witnesses as two supernatural men, etc. is a private interpretations, not something validated by His Word.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
Let God's word always be counted as the unassailable truth, and man's word contradicting it must be seen for what it is. A lie! Or to put it another way, every man's declaration, opinion or interpretation that contradicts God's word is false. This sound judgment between God's word and man's is what Christians are lacking today, even on this forum. Not deeming words that contradict God's word to be a lie, but rather just another possible view, a valid opinion or at best, misguided. Thinking truth uncharitable, it is never a lie, which is what it actually is. People as so quick to accept unbiblical (unvalidated) views so that they can "continue" to espouse their views without condemnation, censure or reprobation. But that doesn't make it an honest difference of opinion among Christians, it is a form of deceit or willful dishonesty. That's not a popular thing to say, but I believe that it is a very accurate depiction of much of the church and this forum today.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The doctrines of Preterism have problems. The fact is there was NO HOLY PLACE of God in the famous Jewish Temple in Jerusalem A.D. 70. That temple in 70AD was never Holy, to begin with anyway, no matter how they work hard to build their doctrine around it. Christ knew that beforehand better than anyone since He is omniscient. Thus he would not prophesy of abomination standing in the Holy Place, that wasn't the Holy Place, to the believers, then and now. He is not a man that he should prophesy carelessly or capriciously or without forethought...as a man would. That is a biblical fact that cannot be denied.

Preterism's confusion with "Biblically defined" Judaea, a "biblically defined" Temple, a "biblically defined" Holy Place, and "Biblically defined" mountains to flee to, etc., etc. Not a Judaea as defined in the wisdom of the world, but a Judaea defined by the Scripture. For it was in the wisdom of the world that the Temple Jesus said He would raise up in three days, the Jews said was forty-six years in its building. But it was the wisdom of God who said the Temple Christ spoke of they would destroy and He would rebuild in three days was HIS CONGREGATION which HIS BODY referred to. Selah!

1st Corinthians 3:18-20
  • "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
  • For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
  • And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."
Wisdom is not in taking things as they "seem", whether in the book of Josephus, the world news, or National Geography, but taking things as God meant them to be taken.
 
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Wayne Gabler

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Which is exactly my point. One cannot find a complete date in the bible without resorting to outside sources, in this case a history book. So when brother "TribulationSigns" says 70ad isn't in the bible, neither is anything else.
Therefore, since his claim that the date of 70ad not being in the bible made Preterism false, is falsified itself. Otherwise the whole bible is falsified.
The looking up was the result of a thread that was trying to add some dates to the start and end of the 70 weeks in Da:9. If I was going to do a thread about them, It would have been to point out the 'he' in Da:9:27 is. I say it is God based on these verses.

Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;
Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

'and to seal up the vision and prophecy,' is related to this verse:
Joh:19:30:
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said,
It is finished:
and he bowed his head,
and gave up the ghost.

How many people even know He was referencing the completion of all things to do with the bruise to the heel from Ge:3:15.
Do you know that?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Moreover, to make the ridiculous claim that A.D. 70 was the second coming of Christ, and the resurrection and there was greater tribulation than has ever been in the world, ever before or since, is just plain ludicrous! It's something one would expect to read from a science fiction.

Matthew 24:21
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
We've had two world wars, plagues devastating whole countries, and a couple of Atomic bombs dropped on two cities, and yet you are irrationally clinging to an untenable idea that A.D. 70 had greater "physical" tribulation than has ever been, or that ever will be. I'm sorry, but that is just plain foolishness.

Proverbs 14:7
  • "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."
If you, who claim to follow the scriptures, could tell us where you saw Christ return in A.D. 70? Who is privy to this secret return or information of such? We have the Apostles witness that Christ came to them and died on the cross, but whose witness is it that Christ returned in A.D. 70? Who's a witness is it that A.D. 70 had the greatest tribulation in a city that ever was, or that ever will be? Sorry, but you didn't get that from the "authority" of the word.

It should be obvious to any rationally thinking person that there has been greater physical tribulation in the world than occurred in a.d. 70. Unless one is "blindly" indoctrinated into the Praeterist/Preterist dogma.

No, the "TRUTH" is, the Lord didn't say that they were to flee to the mountains because of the tribulation. That is another of their personal/private interpretations. They are told to flee to the mountains when they see abomination stand in the Holy Place. That is a "Big Difference!" But you see, this is typical misdirection of eschatologies such as Praeterism, Postmillennialism and Premillennialism. They distort what is written in order to "appear" symmetrical, when in fact they are all convoluted doctrines.
 
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3 Resurrections

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It should be obvious to any rationally thinking person that there has been greater physical tribulation in the world than occurred in a.d. 70. Unless one is "blindly" indoctrinated into the Praeterist/Preterist dogma.
That might be true if PHYSICAL tribulation was the only aspect which Christ was referring to. It wasn't. Christ warned that generation of Jews that they would experience having the plague of a seven-fold number of devils return to them which would be even more wicked than those He had been casting out of them in His days on earth (Matthew 12:43-45). It was demonic spiritual tribulation as well as physical tribulation combined which made that first-century Great Tribulation unlike any before then or after that time in the future.

This was the Great Tribulation which the believers in Judea were to flee from by heading to the mountains and not entering Jerusalem for any reason during that time. We can deduce from the casualty lists taken at the time that an approximate 1-1/4 million people heeded Christ's warning and did not show up in Jerusalem from AD 66 until AD 70's close.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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No, I say that the doctrine of Preterism by inserting 70AD into the Word of God is false. Preterism is simple an opinion of man.

Not to sound arrogant, but God's word is not subject to anyone's opinions, including mine. There are entirely too many "opinions" in the church and not enough acceptance of the "witness of Scripture." In other words, acceptance of man's opinion of what Scripture means, and not of what Scripture actually says. I see very little Biblical validation of the different views held, only a lot of vain justifications of them (Formula: God said A and B, but He actually meant C.) In reality, if we accept what God actually said, then there is no reason for added personal opinion. God said that Christ came and established His Kingdom, rules in it as Lord now, and those who are saved live and reign with Him in this established New Testament Israel. There's no need for opinions of Him coming to establish and reign in another Kingdom on earth. God's word explicitly says He is reigning now and His kingdom is now, and His people reign with him in that kingdom. Man's personal opinions about another millennial period, 70AD, one man antichrist, Two Witnesses as two supernatural men, etc. is a private interpretations, not something validated by His Word.

Romans 3:4
  • "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
Let God's word always be counted as the unassailable truth, and man's word contradicting it must be seen for what it is. A lie! Or to put it another way, every man's declaration, opinion or interpretation that contradicts God's word is false. This sound judgment between God's word and man's is what Christians are lacking today, even on this forum. Not deeming words that contradict God's word to be a lie, but rather just another possible view, a valid opinion or at best, misguided. Thinking truth uncharitable, it is never a lie, which is what it actually is. People as so quick to accept unbiblical (unvalidated) views so that they can "continue" to espouse their views without condemnation, censure or reprobation. But that doesn't make it an honest difference of opinion among Christians, it is a form of deceit or willful dishonesty. That's not a popular thing to say, but I believe that it is a very accurate depiction of much of the church and this forum today.
I don't in any way need to say "70ad" to prove preterism is true. All I need to do is point to what Jesus told the apostles with a basic understanding of what a personal pronoun is.
Speaking to His apostles
Luke 21:20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. 26Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
The fact is there was NO HOLY PLACE of God in the famous Jewish Temple in Jerusalem A.D. 70. That temple in 70AD was never Holy,
Now there's an opinion that contradicts the bible. Jesus called it "His Father's House".
Hebrews 9:25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. (Stated in the present tense.)
And let's not forget what Jesus said: Luke 13:35Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ” Who was He speaking to when He said "you"
 
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Jipsah

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Preterism is simple an opinion of man.
Yeah, the opinion that things that happened, happened, and can't rationally, or honestly, be claimed not to have happened, or to somehow "not count".
Not to sound arrogant, but God's word is not subject to anyone's opinions
Unless it's the opinion that historical events can either be denied or discounted if they interfere with one's presuppositions. Desecration of the Temple by pagan sacrifice? Didn't count, or wasn't really pagan sacrifice. Destruction of the Temple? Didn't count because it wasn't desecrated first, and besides, some Jews somewhere have talked about building another temple. Temple sacrifice ceased? Just a coincidence, didn't count because the Temple was destroyed. Jerusalem beseiged by armies? Didn't count, because it just didn't, so there! Nothing our that Lord said was going to happen that actually happened counted because they didn't happen like someone's opinion of how they must happen wasn't satisfied, hence it all has to happen again.

Talk about straining at gnats and swallowing camels!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yeah, the opinion that things that happened, happened, and can't rationally, or honestly, be claimed not to have happened, or to somehow "not count".

Unless it's the opinion that historical events can either be denied or discounted if they interfere with one's presuppositions. Desecration of the Temple by pagan sacrifice? Didn't count, or wasn't really pagan sacrifice. Destruction of the Temple? Didn't count because it wasn't desecrated first, and besides, some Jews somewhere have talked about building another temple. Temple sacrifice ceased? Just a coincidence, didn't count because the Temple was destroyed. Jerusalem beseiged by armies? Didn't count, because it just didn't, so there! Nothing our that Lord said was going to happen that actually happened counted because they didn't happen like someone's opinion of how they must happen wasn't satisfied, hence it all has to happen again.

Talk about straining at gnats and swallowing camels

Humm...The Lord has torn the veil inside the temple when Christ died. Does that mean the temple was still holy after this?

Mat 24:15
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

The Abomination of Desolation stands in the HOLY PLACE. The 70A.D. temple wasn't qualified. You got the wrong temple and Matthew 24 was not talking about 1st century. You can throw everyone with history books or writing of men until your face becomes blue, but Scripture proves you wrong.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I don't in any way need to say "70ad" to prove preterism is true. All I need to do is point to what Jesus told the apostles with a basic understanding of what a personal pronoun is.
Speaking to His apostles
Luke 21:20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. 26Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Now there's an opinion that contradicts the bible. Jesus called it "His Father's House".
Hebrews 9:25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. (Stated in the present tense.)
And let's not forget what Jesus said: Luke 13:35Look, your house is left to you desolate. And I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ” Who was He speaking to when He said "you"

That is simply not true. What Jesus said before the cross was applicable then and would have been understood by the listener as true then. But when He looked ahead He simply pointed them to the outcome of the (then) current reality. That terminology was therefore correct in that moment of time He spoke. The temple was "holy" before the cross. It was "the house of God." It was "His Father's House." After the ripping of the curtain that all came to an end. The old covenant died. It lost it usefulness. It lost its purpose. The old arrangement was rendered redundant, including the temple, the priesthood and the sacrifices. The new covenant in His blood superseded it. Christ was all in all. He was the temple, the final sacrifice, heaven';s only priest.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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That is simply not true. What Jesus said before the cross was applicable then and would have been understood by the listener as true then. But when He looked ahead He simply pointed them to the outcome of the (then) current reality. That terminology was therefore correct in that moment of time He spoke. The temple was "holy" before the cross. It was "the house of God." It was "His Father's House." After the ripping of the curtain that all came to an end. The old covenant died. It lost it usefulness. It lost its purpose. The old arrangement was rendered redundant, including the temple, the priesthood and the sacrifices. The new covenant in His blood superseded it. Christ was all in all. He was the temple, the final sacrifice, heaven';s only priest.
Then explain this: Matthew 5:17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
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