Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[robycop3]

I don't have to assume any such thing, all I have to do is believe what He said.

Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled and that heaven and earth would pass away before any jot or tittle would pass away.
Did any jots or tittles of the sacrificial laws pass away yet? You agree they did, but you Just can't believe Jesus meant what He said. Why?

Matthew 24:34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
Again, He said it would happen in that generation, but you just can't get yourself to believe He meant what He said.
It's because you believe He's a little physical man who will sit on a little physical throne in a little physical box on the little planet, and this little physical Jesus will be the temple of billions and billions of Christians.
Here's His description of Himself:
Acts 7:
48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:49‘Heaven is My throne
and the earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord,
or where will My place of repose be?50Has not My hand made all these things?’

You can't get past the FACT that these things have NOT happened yet. You refuse to believe that Jesus meant 'the generation in which these things begin".
And He WILL be here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, as He Himself told John. Your argument is with HIM, not me.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No historical records of thousands of Jews & their neighbors simply vanishing in fronta other people.

Of course not, because that is not what the "rapture" actually entailed. ONLY those who had been resurrected from the dust of the grave to a living condition were to be "raptured" to heaven. It is those children of faith who had risen from the dust of the grave who went to heaven with the returning Christ. As I have mentioned to you before, the evidence of that earthquake at Christ's return breaking up the crest of the Mount of Olives is lying in the Kidron Valley today, and has been archaeologically dated to the AD 70 era. If you want to argue that this evidence of Christ's Zechariah 14:4-5 return for the resurrected saints is not there, that is your privilege.

 

[robycop3]

Of course not, because that is not what the "rapture" actually entailed. ONLY those who had been resurrected from the dust of the grave to a living condition were to be "raptured" to heaven.

SCRIPTURE, please!

It is those children of faith who had risen from the dust of the grave who went to heaven with the returning Christ. As I have mentioned to you before, the evidence of that earthquake at Christ's return breaking up the crest of the Mount of Olives is lying in the Kidron Valley today, and has been archaeologically dated to the AD 70 era. If you want to argue that this evidence of Christ's Zechariah 14:4-5 return for the resurrected saints is not there, that is your privilege.

I shall!
Zech. 14:4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

The mount is whole right now. The rift lies underneath the surface, awaiting "The Feet".


5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Azal was between the Mt. & Jerusalem. There's no historical record at all of people fleeing Jerusalem to any such valley.

Sorry, Sir; you've been misled by some made-up pret hooey.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You can't get past the FACT that these things have NOT happened yet. You refuse to believe that Jesus meant 'the generation in which these things begin".
And He WILL be here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, as He Himself told John. Your argument is with HIM, not me.

Of course I refuse to believe that's what Jesus meant. What leads you to believe He can't verbalize what He means? Paul said this: Romans 8:22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. And Jesus said when they had begun to take place they were to lift up their heads as their redemption was drawing nigh.

He does rule the nations with a rod of iron. That's why I was shattered like pottery when I cried out to Him for help, and in a moment and a twinkling of an eye I was miraculously changed. No more desire for drugs and no more desire for alcohol.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Azal was between the Mt. & Jerusalem. There's no historical record at all of people fleeing Jerusalem to any such valley.

I am reading from the Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX translation. You are reading from a different one . Naturally, these are different, and we will come to different conclusions. The crest of the Mount of Olives was going to "lean" in all directions. That's what happens when an earthquake dislodges rubble from the top of a mountain and sends it all sliding downhill to fill up a valley below, which happened back in AD 70.

To quote this text from the LXX, "And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him." This means there are not just one layer of earthquake rubble, but two of them in the Kidron Valley today. And archaeologists confirm this to be the case, with the upper layer dated to AD 70.

The LXX says nothing about anybody "fleeing" through a valley. Actually, that translation doesn't even make any sense. Christ was to return to the Mount of Olives, and people think they are going to be able to run away from His return? What good would that have accomplished?

As for the mistaken ideas about the rapture changing the bodies of the living before they ascend to heaven with Christ, this idea is not found anywhere in scripture. In fact, it directly contradicts the Hebrews 9:27 rule where it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after that the judgment. Nobody gets off this planet alive without dying first. Not even when Christ returns.

 

[Timtofly]

I am reading from the Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX translation. You are reading from a different one . Naturally, these are different, and we will come to different conclusions. The crest of the Mount of Olives was going to "lean" in all directions. That's what happens when an earthquake dislodges rubble from the top of a mountain and sends it all sliding downhill to fill up a valley below, which happened back in AD 70.

To quote this text from the LXX, "And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him." This means there are not just one layer of earthquake rubble, but two of them in the Kidron Valley today. And archaeologists confirm this to be the case, with the upper layer dated to AD 70.

The LXX says nothing about anybody "fleeing" through a valley. Actually, that translation doesn't even make any sense. Christ was to return to the Mount of Olives, and people think they are going to be able to run away from His return? What good would that have accomplished?

As for the mistaken ideas about the rapture changing the bodies of the living before they ascend to heaven with Christ, this idea is not found anywhere in scripture. In fact, it directly contradicts the Hebrews 9:26 rule where it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after that the judgment. Nobody gets off this planet alive without dying first. Not even when Christ returns.

You forgot this part:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

 

[3 Resurrections]

You forgot this part:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

No, I didn't forget it. Since you bring it up, the "living waters" were what Christ referred to, back in this Zechariah 14:8 verse when He said in John 7:38-39, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said" (in Zechariah 14:8) "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Physically and literally, the city of Jerusalem only developed into what it was from its beginning because of the life-sustaining spring waters of the Gihon Spring. These waters were eventually channeled to serve the temple's needs for a ritually-clean water source that would never dry up, such as the seasonal rain waters that ran in the wadis around Jerusalem. Christ used this vital source of the Gihon spring waters - the "living waters" - as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. Once a person has that indwelling Holy Spirit within, that source of life never dries up. It is the difference between a man-made well dug by hand which can dry up (a "phrear") as opposed to a natural spring fountain emerging from deep within the earth which never ceases to flow (a "pege").

In Zechariah, the "living waters" representing the Holy Spirit's effects coming from (the NEW) Jerusalem would flow in both directions - toward the Gentile nations across the Mediterranean (the "hinder sea"), and toward the Jewish lands represented by the Dead Sea (the "former sea"). Instead of being just seasonal rain water in the wadis that would dry up over the 5 months of Israel's summer season, the effects of the "living waters" of the Holy Spirit would flow year round, and into both Jewish and Gentile lands indiscriminately.

This two-direction flow of the "living waters" of the Holy Spirit coming from (the NEW) Jerusalem was a vast improvement over Ezekiel's river of living water that only flowed to the Dead Sea direction at that time - in the post-exilic return when Zerubbabel rebuilt that temple as described in Ezekiel 40-47. That one direction of only the Dead Sea experiencing the effects of that "living water" back then shows that the Jews were still at that time the main focus of God's attention, and that the gospel had not yet exploded into the Gentile lands.

But this is certainly not the case today, with the "living waters" continuing to flow in both directions all year round. Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" have been a fulfilled reality for the world at large for a very long time by now, and we are the recipients of those benefits.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I didn't forget it. Since you bring it up, the "living waters" were what Christ referred to, back in this Zechariah 14:8 verse when He said in John 7:38-39, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said" (in Zechariah 14:8) "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Physically and literally, the city of Jerusalem only developed into what it was from its beginning because of the life-sustaining spring waters of the Gihon Spring. These waters were eventually channeled to serve the temple's needs for a ritually-clean water source that would never dry up, such as the seasonal rain waters that ran in the wadis around Jerusalem. Christ used this vital source of the Gihon spring waters - the "living waters" - as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. Once a person has that indwelling Holy Spirit within, that source of life never dries up. It is the difference between a man-made well dug by hand which can dry up (a "phrear") as opposed to a natural spring fountain emerging from deep within the earth which never ceases to flow (a "pege").

In Zechariah, the "living waters" representing the Holy Spirit's effects coming from (the NEW) Jerusalem would flow in both directions - toward the Gentile nations across the Mediterranean (the "hinder sea"), and toward the Jewish lands represented by the Dead Sea (the "former sea"). Instead of being just seasonal rain water in the wadis that would dry up over the 5 months of Israel's summer season, the effects of the "living waters" of the Holy Spirit would flow year round, and into both Jewish and Gentile lands indiscriminately.

This two-direction flow of the "living waters" of the Holy Spirit coming from (the NEW) Jerusalem was a vast improvement over Ezekiel's river of living water that only flowed to the Dead Sea direction at that time - in the post-exilic return when Zerubbabel rebuilt that temple as described in Ezekiel 40-47. That one direction of only the Dead Sea experiencing the effects of that "living water" back then shows that the Jews were still at that time the main focus of God's attention, and that the gospel had not yet exploded into the Gentile lands.

But this is certainly not the case today, with the "living waters" continuing to flow in both directions all year round. Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" have been a fulfilled reality for the world at large for a very long time by now, and we are the recipients of those benefits.

No, you talked about a geographical change. Now you switch to metaphorical application. Make up your mind.

The city will be changed. The mount of Olives split, and water will come out of Jerusalem with 2 new rivers. No one gets the Holy Spirit out of Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit is inside each human. And those in the first century did not wait until 70 AD. Nothing about 70AD is found in Zechariah 14. Zechariah 14 is still a future event.

 

[robycop3]

I am reading from the Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX translation. You are reading from a different one . Naturally, these are different, and we will come to different conclusions. The crest of the Mount of Olives was going to "lean" in all directions. That's what happens when an earthquake dislodges rubble from the top of a mountain and sends it all sliding downhill to fill up a valley below, which happened back in AD 70.

To quote this text from the LXX, "And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him." This means there are not just one layer of earthquake rubble, but two of them in the Kidron Valley today. And archaeologists confirm this to be the case, with the upper layer dated to AD 70.

The LXX says nothing about anybody "fleeing" through a valley. Actually, that translation doesn't even make any sense. Christ was to return to the Mount of Olives, and people think they are going to be able to run away from His return? What good would that have accomplished?

As for the mistaken ideas about the rapture changing the bodies of the living before they ascend to heaven with Christ, this idea is not found anywhere in scripture. In fact, it directly contradicts the Hebrews 9:26 rule where it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after that the judgment. Nobody gets off this planet alive without dying first. Not even when Christ returns.

So Enoch and Elijah died?

There's still a fault line that has not yet btoken under the Mt. of Olives. And that mt. is actually just a hill, & wouldn't be big enough to fill a quake crevasse.

No Scripture about the bodies of the living being changed at the rapture?
W R O N G !

1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

 

[3 Resurrections]

No Scripture about the bodies of the living being changed at the rapture?
W R O N G !

1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

You are quoting a text that describes the change for the bodies of all believers who have DIED, which is why I highlighted this fact in the verses above. NONE of the believers would remain asleep in the grave. They would ALL be changed to an incorruptible state in a moment when Christ returned.

You are mistakenly interpreting "We shall not all sleep" as if there were an exception to people dying. It means "We all shall not sleep". The bodies of those who die in the Lord do not stay in the grave forever, as Christ promised in John 11:26: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me in no wise shall die forever."

Hebrews 9:27 assures us that ALL are appointed to physically die the one time. Scripture does not contradict itself. ALL of the believers who are appointed to die the one time are ALL to be changed into an incorruptible body in the resurrection process.

 

[robycop3]

You are quoting a text that describes the change for the bodies of all believers who have DIED, which is why I highlighted this fact in the verses above. NONE of the believers would remain asleep in the grave. They would ALL be changed to an incorruptible state in a moment when Christ returned.

You are mistakenly interpreting "We shall not all sleep" as if there were an exception to people dying. It means "We all shall not sleep". The bodies of those who die in the Lord do not stay in the grave forever, as Christ promised in John 11:26: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me in no wise shall die forever."

Hebrews 9:27 assures us that ALL are appointed to physically die the one time. Scripture does not contradict itself. ALL of the believers who are appointed to die the one time are ALL to be changed into an incorruptible body in the resurrection process.

No, Paul meant what he wrote. Those Christians who are alive when the rapture will be changed without dying. Remember, "One shall be taken & the other one left"?

 

[3 Resurrections]

There's still a fault line that has not yet btoken under the Mt. of Olives. And that mt. is actually just a hill, & wouldn't be big enough to fill a quake crevasse.

Of course, there still is and always has been a fault line running up the Kidron Valley. Fault lines do not disappear. That is why an earthquake took place in King Uzziah's day and left a layer of earthquake rubble in the Kidron Valley, according to Josephus (Ant. 9:225).

"In the meantime, a great earthquake shook the ground, and a rent was made in the temple, and the bright rays of the sun shone through it, and fell upon the king's face, insomuch that the leprosy seized upon him immediately; and before the city, at a place called Eroge, half the mountain broke off from the rest on the west, and rolled itself four furlongs, and stood still at the east mountain, till the roads, as well as the king's gardens, were spoiled by the obstruction."

This same kind of rubble sliding downhill and "blocking up" the Kidron Valley was duplicated in the AD 70 earthquake - at Christ's return.

On top of that layer of earthquake rubble from King Uzziah's day, there is now another deep layer dated from the AD 70 period. Since the time of Christ, the main part of the Kidron Valley is now about 40' higher and about 70' further away from the wall of Jerusalem on the east side of the city than it used to be. I suggest you go argue with the archaeologists.

I am getting my information from "The Biblical World" by Rev. J. L. Leeper, in the part titled "Remains of the Temple of Jerusalem".

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, Paul meant what he wrote. Those Christians who are alive when the rapture will be changed without dying. Remember, "One shall be taken & the other one left"?

Of course Paul meant what he wrote, and he never said the LIVING would be changed - only the DEAD believers bodies would be changed, which would result in "DEATH being swallowed up in victory".

The "one taken and the other one left" verse is not referring to the rapture. You are merely following the common mistaken viewpoint on that. One would be taken (captive by the Romans) and the other left (to die). Which is why Christ said the eagles would be gathered together to eat the carcases of those who were left. Which is why Zechariah 14:2 said that "HALF of the city shall go forth into captivity" when Jerusalem was taken by the Romans.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No, you talked about a geographical change. Now you switch to metaphorical application. Make up your mind.

The city will be changed. The mount of Olives split, and water will come out of Jerusalem with 2 new rivers. No one gets the Holy Spirit out of Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit is inside each human. And those in the first century did not wait until 70 AD. Nothing about 70AD is found in Zechariah 14. Zechariah 14 is still a future event

You are assuming that prophetic utterances in scripture must be either all literal events or all metaphoric in meaning. That's not the case in Hebraic thinking. It's a blend of BOTH. There were literal, physical geographical changes in the world as well as symbolic and spiritual changes indicated in Zechariah's prophecies about Christ's return.

As for the point of the "living water" of the Holy Spirit coming out of Jerusalem, I'm sure you remember Christ's directive to the disciples. They were to go first to Jerusalem with the gospel, then to expand their evangelistic efforts to an ever-increasing wider audience. "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8). It was "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

As you are saying above, the Holy Spirit's effect of the "living waters" did not wait until AD 70 to begin flowing. It was already flowing at Pentecost back in AD 33. But when the physical city of Jerusalem was physically destroyed and torn down to the last stone in AD 70, the spiritual New Jerusalem became obviously manifested to all as the true source of the "living water" of the Spirit, in fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy. God cleared the physical debris away so that the spiritual reality could shine through without the distraction of those "weak and beggarly elements" being in the way.

But I would disagree with you that AD 70's events are not found in Zechariah 14. Actually, the description of that AD 66-70 destruction process started back in Zechariah 12:1 and following, which told about "the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem". However, the dividing point between AD 70's events and times future to that (such as our future) is found in Zechariah 14:16 to the end of the chapter. "From year to year" after AD 70 and forward, the timing of the Feast of Tabernacles was supposed to be remembered by all the nations. A blessing of righteousness like rain from heaven would be given for those remembering this one particular Feast of Tabernacles. That is because Christ's next return for His saints would come at that specific time on the calendar year at the close of fallen man's history on this planet. This is what we are waiting for in the future.

 

[robycop3]

Of course, there still is and always has been a fault line running up the Kidron Valley. Fault lines do not disappear. That is why an earthquake took place in King Uzziah's day and left a layer of earthquake rubble in the Kidron Valley, according to Josephus (Ant. 9:225).

"In the meantime, a great earthquake shook the ground, and a rent was made in the temple, and the bright rays of the sun shone through it, and fell upon the king's face, insomuch that the leprosy seized upon him immediately; and before the city, at a place called Eroge, half the mountain broke off from the rest on the west, and rolled itself four furlongs, and stood still at the east mountain, till the roads, as well as the king's gardens, were spoiled by the obstruction."

This same kind of rubble sliding downhill and "blocking up" the Kidron Valley was duplicated in the AD 70 earthquake - at Christ's return.

On top of that layer of earthquake rubble from King Uzziah's day, there is now another deep layer dated from the AD 70 period. Since the time of Christ, the main part of the Kidron Valley is now about 40' higher and about 70' further away from the wall of Jerusalem on the east side of the city than it used to be. I suggest you go argue with the archaeologists.

I am getting my information from "The Biblical World" by Rev. J. L. Leeper, in the part titled "Remains of the Temple of Jerusalem".

Big prob-JESUS HASN'T RETURNED YET! Otherwise, His return woulda been seen by ALL, & He'd still be here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron as He said He will be.

And the Mt. of Olives is still much as it was in 69 AD. It has NOT split in two yet.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That was "every eye shall see him, even (or specifically) those who pierced Him." Every eye of those who pierced Him saw Him bodily returning, as predicted. I know you would like this to mean all people in the entire globe simultaneously seeing Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, but that is not what the language of this verse requires.

And no, the Mount of Olives is not the same as it was back in AD 69. I keep giving you the particulars of how the landscape physically changed after the AD 70 earthquake at Christ's return, but apparently it's not registering with you. One source said that the cavernous Kidron Valley at its lowest point was 100' deeper back in Christ's day than it is today. One hundred feet of rubble filling up the Kidron Valley in places is a lot of earthquake rubble "blocking it up", as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX. But if you reject that version of the prophecy, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

If the Josephus account of the earthquake's effect on the Mount of Olives in King Uzziah's day was said to have "Half the mountain broken off from the rest...", then this is almost a duplicate of the AD 70 earthquake's effects, since Zechariah said it would be similar.

 

[robycop3]

That was "every eye shall see him, even (or specifically) those who pierced Him." Every eye of those who pierced Him saw Him bodily returning, as predicted. I know you would like this to mean all people in the entire globe simultaneously seeing Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, but that is not what the language of this verse requires.

And no, the Mount of Olives is not the same as it was back in AD 69. I keep giving you the particulars of how the landscape physically changed after the AD 70 earthquake at Christ's return, but apparently it's not registering with you. One source said that the cavernous Kidron Valley at its lowest point was 100' deeper back in Christ's day than it is today. One hundred feet of rubble filling up the Kidron Valley in places is a lot of earthquake rubble "blocking it up", as predicted in Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX. But if you reject that version of the prophecy, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

If the Josephus account of the earthquake's effect on the Mount of Olives in King Uzziah's day was said to have "Half the mountain broken off from the rest...", then this is almost a duplicate of the AD 70 earthquake's effects, since Zechariah said it would be similar.

Sir, the Mt. is in one piece today, with no evidence it was split in two, with the halves moving apart.

But the MOST-TELLING proof that your idea is wrong is very simple-JESUS IS NOT HERE, RULING THE NATIONS. Nowhere did He say that, once He returns, He will ever leave again. No getting by that obvious fact!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Nowhere did He say that, once He returns, He will ever leave again. No getting by that obvious fact!

Yes, that is what He told the disciples. "...And if I go, I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." This was Christ leaving this earth for heaven, and taking the resurrected saints with Him, including those disciples He was speaking to at the time. Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4 text about the "rapture" speaks of the resurrected saints meeting the Lord together in the air, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord". Do you really think the resurrected saints were to rise out of their graves, meet the Lord in the air, and then drop back down to earth again, just so that Christ could rule with His two feet on the ground on that occasion? What would be the purpose of meeting Him in the air, if not to go dwell with Him in heaven?

Christ Jesus is perfectly capable of ruling the nations from heaven with a rod of iron. Do you really think that this world's events are not under the control of the One who created it? I don't. He is longsuffering with mankind's rebellious nature, and is working constantly to built His kingdom on this earth, one converted sinner at a time, in spite of mankind's ability to create evil.

As for the Mount of Olives breaking apart with the mountain "leaning" in all directions as Zechariah 14 prophesied, gravity would drag all that broken mountain rubble downhill, where it would naturally "block up" the Kidron Valley, as it did once before in King Uzziah's days, (also as Zechariah mentioned in the LXX). What did you think, that the Mount of Olives would end up looking like a mammoth "V" formation, without gravity breaking all that dislodged material apart and then having it roll downhill? Isaac Newton would be shaking his head at your interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

You are assuming that prophetic utterances in scripture must be either all literal events or all metaphoric in meaning. That's not the case in Hebraic thinking. It's a blend of BOTH. There were literal, physical geographical changes in the world as well as symbolic and spiritual changes indicated in Zechariah's prophecies about Christ's return.

As for the point of the "living water" of the Holy Spirit coming out of Jerusalem, I'm sure you remember Christ's directive to the disciples. They were to go first to Jerusalem with the gospel, then to expand their evangelistic efforts to an ever-increasing wider audience. "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8). It was "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

As you are saying above, the Holy Spirit's effect of the "living waters" did not wait until AD 70 to begin flowing. It was already flowing at Pentecost back in AD 33. But when the physical city of Jerusalem was physically destroyed and torn down to the last stone in AD 70, the spiritual New Jerusalem became obviously manifested to all as the true source of the "living water" of the Spirit, in fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy. God cleared the physical debris away so that the spiritual reality could shine through without the distraction of those "weak and beggarly elements" being in the way.

But I would disagree with you that AD 70's events are not found in Zechariah 14. Actually, the description of that AD 66-70 destruction process started back in Zechariah 12:1 and following, which told about "the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem". However, the dividing point between AD 70's events and times future to that (such as our future) is found in Zechariah 14:16 to the end of the chapter. "From year to year" after AD 70 and forward, the timing of the Feast of Tabernacles was supposed to be remembered by all the nations. A blessing of righteousness like rain from heaven would be given for those remembering this one particular Feast of Tabernacles. That is because Christ's next return for His saints would come at that specific time on the calendar year at the close of fallen man's history on this planet. This is what we are waiting for in the future.

I am not putting 70AD into the Biblical narrative at all. There are still no rivers flowing out of Jerusalem. So that is still a future phenomenon. You can deny the future, at least until it happens.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There are still no rivers flowing out of Jerusalem. So that is still a future phenomenon.

According to Jesus's own definition in John 7:38-39 of what Zechariah 14:8's "living waters" actually were (the Holy Spirit like a fountain coming out of the believers under the New Covenant), the rivers coming out of New Jerusalem are indeed flowing today and will continue flowing in the future. You and I both contribute to that flow, since we both have the indwelling Spirit that we spread to others by our witness. As you have said, this did not originate with AD 70. It originated when the New Covenant was launched with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. It was a river that continued to flow before, during, and after the AD 70 destruction of the Old Jerusalem.