Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[jgr]

The AC is not a dispensational issue. All 4 views have this error. All demand a human AC at a time of trouble.

Provide a verbatim quote of a recognized amil author supporting your claim.

 

[ozso]

Depends on if you think it already happened or not, no?

Unless you bear the burden of a futurist, is it not all over, now, and you missed the boat? Or are you a partial futurist?

I've never gotten into it much. I expect when I die I will be with Jesus, no matter what my understanding of the end times was.

 

[Timtofly]

The problem that it did not happen to be global or too literal is not the "preterist problem".

Its your problem, because you expect something that did not happen in history, but should. Jews also expected the coming of the Messiah to look differently. And then they had to invent judaism to somehow continue in their religion after the temple was destroyed and prophets ceased to exist. So some Christians invented futurism.

A preterist may not know every detail who was who and how it exactly happened, but simply trusts the words of the Bible that it somehow happened. And some events are possible to be identified even after two millenia, because they were so significant.

Where in Scripture does it state, "we even have to invent something", once God declares it is finished?

The fact it is not finished, is why even Peterist have to invent a theory. When God is finished, no one will be left guessing, "What's next?".

 

[Timtofly]

But Bible says it will happen soon, not 2,000 years later. Thats the main problem of futurism.

But Israel did not become a Nation and rule over all the other Nations soon. They should be the ones complaining, not the Redeemed.

The church never ruled over the unsaved either, so they have really done a bang up job as well.

That it has not happened yet, is the only reason it is still future.

 

[Timtofly]

Even in the futurist paradigm, the New Heavens and Earth abide for eternity, so whatever "end" they "demand" is still future, is clearly not the "end of all things" either, is it?

Seems that problem exists for futurists too...

Or, maybe it's different when futurists do it?

Futurist point out the end of Adam's sin nature and death. What does eternity have to do with that?

 

[Timtofly]

Plenty of resonable people, futurists even, believe People (Christians) go to Heaven when they die today, which would be impossible until AFTER the GWT Judgment.

No, it was only impossible prior to the Cross. What Scripture equates the Cross with the GWT?

It is called Paradise, heaven is the firmament. It is spiritual blindness that is yet to be removed as well, not just a kingdom.

 

[Bob_1000]

How can God coming to earth for our redemption be an abomination? That is really twisting Scripture into a pretzel.

So you think God was perfectly OK with the Jews murdering his son? Let me show you how angry he was over this.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

I'm sure that doesn't compare to how angry God will be when "The Antichrist" sacrifices a pig on the alter of temple that blasphemes the sacrifice of His son's blood.

 

[Bob_1000]

Which was before the creation of the earth, so the Second Coming was in Genesis 1:1. Except Jesus was talking about a future event before the Cross happened.

The Cross was the day of Redemption. Not everyone has died yet. Until that last person dies, death has not been defeated. It takes more than two verses to make a point.

How do you reconcile 10k, when John defines 144k? Are they the same set, or a different set?

I'm redeemed by the blood of the lamb right now, my death has nothing to do with my redemption.

The 144,000 were the Jews that were marked for protection when God commanded his army to smite all of those that were committing the abominations in Israel.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

 

[Timtofly]

The two accounts in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 differ from one another.

Matthew 24: compresses the Israel event (AD70) with the end of time event.

Luke 21: has the two events separated from one another.

Many people only read Matthew 24 and think there is just one final event, the end of all things.

Yet Luke 21 has the end of theocratic Israel, then the age of the Gentiles, concluding with the end of all things.

The two accounts are very different from one another and few notice the difference.

Are you agreeing then that 70AD was not an end? It would only be an end to a dispensation or age at best. Except that end was at the Cross in 30AD. There was definitely an end to millions of humans in 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m pretty sure that’s not a postmillennial view.

Because the popes were not actual antichrist?

 

[Hammster]

Because the popes were not actual antichrist?

Because it’s not biblical.

 

[Timtofly]

So you think God was perfectly OK with the Jews murdering his son? Let me show you how angry he was over this.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

I'm sure that doesn't compare to how angry God will be when "The Antichrist" sacrifices a pig on the alter of temple that blasphemes the sacrifice of His son's blood.

Except that was a parable. God Himself was the Lamb. What part of God's plan do you disagree with?

If you read the book of Hebrews in context, God never "enjoyed" the sacrifices of blood. Yet that was the Holy connection between God and His chosen people. Sin in our lives each day is an abomination. It could even cause mental desolation. There are many applications to these points.

You realize that now the apostate church is in control over many humans, just like the Jews, who had corrupted what it was to have a Temple? Today's church may not have to crucify God on a Cross, but they are in the same boat as the first century Jews.

The issue with the 42 months given to Satan is not about surrendering control to Satan. It is because the vineyard was taken away from the church, and given to Satan, just like it was taken from the Jews and given to the church. There are still souls who will be beheaded to be harvested for the kingdom.

And after Satan is given 42 months, we see the AoD, because those 42 months are going to be the most desolate and God forsaken months ever to happen since Adam was cast out of Paradise. The church is not going to be around. Only the 2 witnesses. And souls will be checking out, to be saved, not checking in to endure until the end. Only the desolate will be left, because those in the Lamb's book of life will have had their heads chopped off. Only those with the mark of that desolation will be left.

 

[Timtofly]

Because it’s not biblical.

Neither are post Millennium teachings.

 

[Hammster]

Neither are post Millennium teachings.

I can easily refute that claim.

 

[trophy33]

Eternity "now" is not the Biblical eternity, or you would have proved that with Scripture. We have not even reached the end of Daniel's 70th week. That has to happen before the Millennial Kingdom, and then the NHNE is still not eternity. Eternity is outside of creation.

I do not agree with you

 

[trophy33]

Where in Scripture does it state, "we even have to invent something", once God declares it is finished?
The fact it is not finished, is why even Peterist have to invent a theory. When God is finished, no one will be left guessing, "What's next?".

Its your opinion, nothing factual we could discuss...

 

[trophy33]

But Israel did not become a Nation and rule over all the other Nations soon. They should be the ones complaining, not the Redeemed.

The church never ruled over the unsaved either, so they have really done a bang up job as well.

That it has not happened yet, is the only reason it is still future.

You are taking prophecies too literally. Thats why it will be still future for you, even after a million years.

 

[jgr]

Because the popes were not actual antichrist?

No?

“All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17 Bellarmine (1542-1621), a professor and rector at the Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome, is generally considered to have been one of the outstanding Jesuit instructors in the history of this organization.

“The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II” (Ferraris was an Italian Catholic canonist and consultor to the Holy Office in Rome.)

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[parousia70]

Futurist point out the end of Adam's sin nature and death. What does eternity have to do with that?

So the phrase "the end of all things" is contextual for the futurist? it doesnt really, LITERALLY mean the "end of all things"?

I guess when Futurists declare "the end of all things" doesnt literally mean the end of "ALL" things, it's OK, but when Preterists do it, it's wrong?

 

[parousia70]

No, it was only impossible prior to the Cross.

Got scripture for that?

My Bible says the way into God's Heaven was not opened until the Temple fell.
Hebrews 9:8

What Scripture equates the Cross with the GWT?

None. that's my point. Why do you imply the results of the GWTJ were available to the Christian at the Cross?

It is called Paradise, heaven is the firmament. It is spiritual blindness that is yet to be removed as well, not just a kingdom.

Until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED, ALL the Dead Go to Hades, Righteous and Wicked, Separated by a gulf, but encompassed in Hades.
Hades is not emptied by any means besides JUDGEMENT.
Yet, millions upon millions of supposedly "reasonable" Christians believe Hades (at least the righteous side) is empty today and the Righteous, at least, are presently enjoying the Results of a Judgment that has yet to occur...

But Israel did not become a Nation and rule over all the other Nations soon.

Scripture for that?

My Bible confirms that Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was already the preeminent city among all nations. The Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

The church never ruled over the unsaved either, so they have really done a bang up job as well.

What Power over the Church do you claim the unsaved presently have?

Is it your claim that one day the unsaved will get to share in Christ's victory over Sin and Death?
What scripture teaches that?

Scripture DOES teach that Christ Jesus, and the Church which is His Body, Rules over ALL THINGS right now.

Matthew 16:18, Revelation 1:5, Matthew 28:18, Colossians 1:16-20, 1 Peter 3:22

That it has not happened yet, is the only reason it is still future.

Circular Reasoning based solely on speculation.