Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[DavidPT]

But Bible says it will happen soon, not 2,000 years later. Thats the main problem of futurism.

But it's not a problem if some of these things began to come to pass back then and that some of these things are yet to come to pass. The book of Revelation also records the great white throne judgment. How can any reasonable person think that already came to pass back then, 2000 years ago?

 

[parousia70]

But it's not a problem if some of these things began to come to pass back then and that some of these things are yet to come to pass. The book of Revelation also records the great white throne judgment. How can any reasonable person think that already came to pass back then, 2000 years ago?

Plenty of resonable people, futurists even, believe People (Christians) go to Heaven when they die today, which would be impossible until AFTER the GWT Judgment.

 

[trophy33]

The book of Revelation also records the great white throne judgment. How can any reasonable person think that already came to pass back then, 2000 years ago?

I do not follow your reasoning here. It was impossible for a throne to be white or great, 2,000 years ago? Or what is so unreasonable about it?

 

[DavidPT]

I do not follow your reasoning here. It was impossible for a throne to be white or great, 2,000 years ago? Or what is so unreasonable about it?

That judgment involves Christ bodily raising the dead then standing before Him in order to be judged and sentenced. No one could possibly think that already came to pass 2000 years ago. When the book of Revelation was written, whether it be before 70 AD or after 70 AD, Christ has already returned back to heaven by then. The great white throne judgment does not occur while Christ is still in heaven. It is meaning sometime after He has returned.

 

[Lost4words]

Interpretation. All down to that.

Take Jesus's words plainly and you read 'This generation'. The Apostles generation. Not Bidens generation!

 

[trophy33]

That judgment involves Christ bodily raising the dead then standing before Him in order to be judged and sentenced. No one could possibly think that already came to pass 2000 years ago. When the book of Revelation was written, whether it be before 70 AD or after 70 AD, Christ has already returned back to heaven by then. The great white throne judgment does not occur while Christ is still in heaven. It is meaning sometime after He has returned.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."
Rev 20:11

If you are talking about this place, there is nothing written about it being in bodies or in a physical realm. Actually, when we read the imagery of earth and heavens being put away, then we can hardly expect it was to happen visibly on this earth.

 

[DavidPT]

Plenty of resonable people, futurists even, believe People (Christians) go to Heaven when they die today, which would be impossible until AFTER the GWT Judgment.

You never know then, maybe soul sleep is the solution? Though that is not my position, I still see it as a possibility.

 

[DavidPT]

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."
Rev 20:11

If you are talking about this place, there is nothing written about it being in bodies or in a physical realm. Actually, when we read the imagery of earth and heavens to be put away, then we can hardly expect it was to happen visibly on this earth.

The point is not so much where it might take place, but rather, when it takes place. As to the resurrection involving the lost, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that one should fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This alone proves that even the lost are resurrected bodily. Can't destroy someone's body in hell if they are bodiless at the time.

 

[trophy33]

The point is not so much where it might take place, but rather, when it takes place.

Your previous point was that those people have to be bodily raised. Which is not in the biblical text about the white throne.

As to the resurrection involving the lost, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that one should fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This alone proves that even the lost are resurrected bodily. Can't destroy someone's body in hell if they are bodiless at the time.

This place is not about resurrection. The term "hell" can lead to various misconceptions, because of our religio-cultural baggage we put to that.

But in Greek, there are several terms translated to English as "hell" and have quite wide range of meanings.

Gehenna, the word used here, was a valley in Israel, where various waste and dead bodies were constantly burning. It was much more an imagery of the coming massacre and desolation by Romans than of some world-wide bodily judgement.

 

[Timtofly]

Prove that the abomination that made Jerusalem desolate wasn’t murdering Jesus.

How can God coming to earth for our redemption be an abomination? That is really twisting Scripture into a pretzel.

 

[DavidPT]

Your previous point was that those people have to be bodily raised. Which is not in the biblical text about the white throne.

If Scripture interprets Scripture, it doesn't need to be in that block of text in order for it to be so. Take the following parable, for instance.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Some think this is already taking place as we speak, that this happens to someone upon death. What this verse illustrates is, that one is in a body while being punished like this. One does not descend bodily into hell upon death nor do souls have tongues and fingers. A body would have a tongue and fingers, though.

Then there is this as well.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Souls don't have teeth but bodies would. You might argue that this simply means they are cast into a furnace of fire while still physically alive, thus they haven't even died yet, thus no one being resurrected from the dead. That would probably be a valid argument if you were to argue that. But that doesn't mean you are correct, though.

 

[Timtofly]

They had all they needed. So we should also have all we need. Scripture interprets scripture, unless you want to have a dispensational view. Then anything can interpret scripture.

So those without a dispensational view are just making things up, and there are literal ages, since Genesis 1, and not just one where nothing has changed?

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

 

[trophy33]

If Scripture interprets Scripture

I do not like this principle too much, I have seen people connecting so random out of context places, through my Christian life, that I am very careful with that, now.

I think that context inteprets Scripture. Scripture is not a special kind of puzzle where we can put various pieces together regardless of their place they belong into.

Two places can be about fire or judgement or "hell", but still mean totally different things.

, it doesn't need to be in that block of text in order for it to be so.

But then we do not have any certainity that our additions actually belongs into that.

Take the following parable, for instance.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Some think this is already taking place as we speak, that this happens to someone upon death. What this verse illustrates is, that one is in a body while being punished like this. One does not descend bodily into hell upon death nor do souls have tongues and fingers. A body would have a tongue and fingers, though.

Then there is this as well.

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Souls don't have teeth but bodies would. You might argue that this simply means they are cast into a furnace of fire while still physically alive, thus they haven't even died yet, thus no one being resurrected from the dead. That would probably be a valid argue if you were to argue that. But that doesn't mean you are correct, though.

Parables, parables... one never knows for certain

 

[Hammster]

So those without a dispensational view are just making things up, and there are literal ages, since Genesis 1, and not just one where nothing has changed?

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Nope, not making things up. Just using scripture to interpret scripture.

 

[parousia70]

You never know then, maybe soul sleep is the solution? Though that is not my position, I still see it as a possibility.

How is Soul Sleep a Solution for futurists who insist Christains Go to heaven when they die?

If soul sleep isn't your position, What is?

Have the Dead been Raised from Hades in to Heaven? (which would necessitate them having been Judged already)

Or are we still waiting for that?

It's an either/or situation... not a lot of wiggle room for "well, sort of", or "temproarily", or "partially" is there?

Could any reasonable person believe it's possible that any human would get to Go to Heaven BEFORE being Judged?

Millions do believe exactly that, even though sripture teaches the opposite.
Are they unreasonable? I think maybe so.

Seems to me it's unreasonable to declare that the Results of the GWT Judgment (entry into Heaven) are a present reality BUT the GWTJ hasn't happened.

It's the classic cart before the horse.

How can any reasonable person declare the Results of the GWTJ are presently being experienced and in the same breath declare the GWTJ has yet to take place?

 

[klutedavid]

Are you suggesting the whole debate started between Luke and Matthew? Luke was a preterist and Matthew was a futurist?

The two accounts in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 differ from one another.

Matthew 24: compresses the Israel event (AD70) with the end of time event.

Luke 21: has the two events separated from one another.

Many people only read Matthew 24 and think there is just one final event, the end of all things.

Yet Luke 21 has the end of theocratic Israel, then the age of the Gentiles, concluding with the end of all things.

The two accounts are very different from one another and few notice the difference.

 

[Timtofly]

Don't we all end up with glorious future after death, even if we believe biblical prophecies already took place?

Depends on if you think it already happened or not, no?

Unless you bear the burden of a futurist, is it not all over, now, and you missed the boat? Or are you a partial futurist?

 

[Timtofly]

Provide a quote of any Scripture which contains the exact expression "the antichrist" referring to dispensationalism's delusional single future antichrist.

The AC is not a dispensational issue. All 4 views have this error. All demand a human AC at a time of trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

Does not make any sense. Its preterism that believes we are in eternity now.

Eternity "now" is not the Biblical eternity, or you would have proved that with Scripture. We have not even reached the end of Daniel's 70th week. That has to happen before the Millennial Kingdom, and then the NHNE is still not eternity. Eternity is outside of creation.

 

[Hammster]

The AC is not a dispensational issue. All 4 views have this error. All demand a human AC at a time of trouble.

I’m pretty sure that’s not a postmillennial view.