preterism and the rapture

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Hoonbaba says:

"And lastly, we see that in Matt 24:14, Jesus says that the gospel would be preached in the whole world and then the end would come. It's easy to believe that 'whole world' refers to the globe..."

Yes, it most certainly is easy to believe that. Especially since that's what Jesus meant. Otherwise, Jesus thought the world was flat, and therefore He cannot be God. Jesus said what He meant. Preterists must twist even the Holy Words of our Lord. That is heretical.

What do YOU think Paul meant when he said that 2,000 years ago these things already happened?

"...because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in ALL THE WORLD also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing" (Col 1:5-6)

or this:

"if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, WHICH WAS PROCLAIMED IN ALL CREATION UNDER HEAVEN , and of which I, Paul, was made a minister" (Col 1:23)

or this:

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but NOW IS MANIFESTED, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN TO ALL THE NATIONS " (Ro 16:25-26)

Who is "heretical" again?

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Pericles


Who is "heretical" again?

Heretical is a "what", not a "who".

her•e•sy \"her-e-se\ n, pl -sies [ME heresie, fr. OF, fr. LL haeresis, fr. LGk hairesis, fr. Gk, action of taking, choice, sect, fr. hairein to take] 1 : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma 2 : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma 3 : dissent from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice - her•e•tic \-'tik\ n - he•ret•i•cal \he-"re-ti-kel\ adj
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Heretical is a "what", not a "who".

her•e•sy \"her-e-se\ n, pl -sies [ME heresie, fr. OF, fr. LL haeresis, fr. LGk hairesis, fr. Gk, action of taking, choice, sect, fr. hairein to take] 1 : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma 2 : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma 3 : dissent from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice - her•e•tic \-'tik\ n - he•ret•i•cal \he-"re-ti-kel\ adj
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

Hehe...good to see you can read dictionaries. Isn't this a nice way out of answering my questions..?!

 

[NumberOneSon]

Heretical is a "what", not a "who".

her•e•sy \"her-e-se\ n, pl -sies [ME heresie, fr. OF, fr. LL haeresis, fr. LGk hairesis, fr. Gk, action of taking, choice, sect, fr. hairein to take] 1 : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma 2 : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma 3 : dissent from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice - her•e•tic \-'tik\ n - he•ret•i•cal \he-"re-ti-kel\ adj
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

Hi Auntie,

And that's why Martin Luther was charged as a heretic. And yet he is considered a great reformer of the Faith. Sola Scriptora and Sola Fide was not taught in the Church for almost 1500 years until Luther. And yet you probably don't consider him a heretic.

Why is it that Christians think that reformation in doctrine was acceptable and needed 1500 years after Christ, and yet it is unthinkable and unneccessary 2000 years after Christ? I'll tell you why; because it's okay when it happened hundreds of years ago to people we have no connection to, when we read about reformation in a dusty, old history book. But it's down right scary to think about it occuring in our lifetime. Think about it, Auntie, if you or I had lived in Luther's day, we'd probably be among the thousands shouting "heretic, heretic"!

Pericles' word usage was correct, Auntie. Do you understand what he was trying to convey in the scriptures he presented?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[gwyyn]

Originally posted by Pericles


"...because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in ALL THE WORLD also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing" (Col 1:5-6)

or this:

"if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, WHICH WAS PROCLAIMED IN ALL CREATION UNDER HEAVEN , and of which I, Paul, was made a minister" (Col 1:23)

or this:

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but NOW IS MANIFESTED, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN TO ALL THE NATIONS " (Ro 16:25-26)

Ok now I have a question. I'm not up on my history but when in time did those Indians come across the Bering Strait. I was just wondering cause in the second scripture used, it's states all in creation. To me that means everyone that God had put on this earth. I understand how you get that all the world in that time is the Roman Empire, but what about the Indians were they in America at that time???
Just wondering what your opinion is on this matter???

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Acts6:5


Why is it that Christians think that reformation in doctrine was acceptable and needed 1500 years after Christ, and yet it is unthinkable and unneccessary 2000 years after Christ? I'll tell you why; because it's okay when it happened hundreds of years ago to people we have no connection to, when we read about reformation in a dusty, old history book. But it's down right scary to think about it occuring in our lifetime. Think about it, Auntie, if you or I had lived in Luther's day, we'd probably be among the thousands shouting "heretic, heretic"!
In Christ,

Acts6:5

Reformation in doctrine can be of the devil. Do you deny this?

 

[NumberOneSon]

Hi Gwyyn!

I think there are only 2 possibilities.

1.) Either every literal nation had the gospel preached within their borders.
2.) Or Paul was utilizing a Jewish idiom to describe the Roman world.

Either way, Paul's words were true. That's my opinion, anyway.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[NumberOneSon]

Reformation in doctrine can be of the devil. Do you deny this?

Reformation, from a Christian perspective, cannot be...or else it wouldn't be "reformation". It would be "Degradation".

But can a change in doctrine be wrong? Sure, and that's one of the reasons why the LDS Church exists. And that's why believing in preterism didn't come by way of a pray and a burning in my bossom; I believe it because of studying the scriptures, regardless of how I feel.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Reformation in doctrine can be of the devil. Do you deny this?

Then you must think that the reformation, the time when church tradition and ideology was abandoned by Luther, was from Satan? Wow!! If it wouldn't be for Luther, we would all be catholics today. Way to go...!

 

[gwyyn]

Hey thankyou, for clearing that up to me.

And I agree with you that what Paul sais is true, just think people are gonna differ on how they wanna take it to heart!!

 

[NumberOneSon]

Yep, you got that right!

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Pericles


Then you must think that the reformation, the time when church tradition and ideology was abandoned by Luther, was from Satan? Wow!! If it wouldn't be for Luther, we would all be catholics today. Way to go...!

What do you have against the Catholics? If there had been no reformation, then I would be Catholic, and that would be fine with me.

 

[Pericles]

Originally posted by gwyyn

Originally posted by Pericles


"...because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in ALL THE WORLD also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing" (Col 1:5-6)

or this:

"if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, WHICH WAS PROCLAIMED IN ALL CREATION UNDER HEAVEN , and of which I, Paul, was made a minister" (Col 1:23)

or this:

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but NOW IS MANIFESTED, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN TO ALL THE NATIONS " (Ro 16:25-26)

Ok now I have a question. I'm not up on my history but when in time did those Indians come across the Bering Strait. I was just wondering cause in the second scripture used, it's states all in creation. To me that means everyone that God had put on this earth. I understand how you get that all the world in that time is the Roman Empire, but what about the Indians were they in America at that time???
Just wondering what your opinion is on this matter???

gwyyn, you got that

1. It is likely that both Christ and Paul were talking about the known world at that time

OR

2. Both Christ and Paul were talking about the entire planet.

Both options are find with me as long as we agree that both Christ and Paul were talking about the same "world", which is I believe the case. Were indians in North America reached by the gospel? Probably not, but we don't have a definite answer. We simply don't know. Does "every creature under heaven" mean the entire planet? Maybe

My personal position on this is that most probably not every single individual on planet earth heard the gospel. Furthermore, according to Paul, even if some people did not hear the gospel prior to AD 70, they were all judged based on either their obedience of the Jewish Law (jews), or moral law (gentiles). This position has some tension as it would be hard to maintain its integrity today in our society.

This is an eschatological point on which I could definitely gain more understanding and I welcome anyone with more input.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by kern
A lot of non-preterists or partial preterists don't believe in the rapture; it's a fairly recent belief.

Can you show me where in Revelation the rapture is?

-Chris

Daniel 12: 9-10 - "He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.(10) Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

Not only do some want to have their cake and eat it too, they also want it yesterday!!!

 

[davo]

G'day rollin' good to see ya -thought you must have been "raptured" . You know, I never could figure out what the point was of having your cake and not being able to eat it -go for broke!!

davo

 

[gwyyn]

LOL, ok we've covered the rapture, now what about the other events in Revelation. How do preterist explain their happenings? Just wondering about the tribulation, Gog and Magog, ect.

 

[parousia70]

Gwyyn,

Here's a great link that has answers to many of the questions you ae asking, as well as some you probably hadn't thought of asking yet.

Questioins, Questions, Questions!

I urge you to visit this site, for you will find more answers from the preterist perspective in an hour there then you could reading through 10 days of posts here.

Then, when you get through that and still have more questions (as I'm confident you will), you will be better equipped to narrow them down to the finer details, and we can spend some productive time examining them here.

If your desire is truly to understand preterism, you will find this link of emmense value!

Good Hunting!