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preterism and the rapture

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by gwyyn, May 25, 2002.

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  1. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok I have read several of the different posts on preterism and the doctrine that surrounds it. I understand that it is believed that the events and prophesy's have already occurred and Jesus's second coming is in our salvation. However there are 2 things in Revelations i haven't seen mentioned. One the rapture and second Christ's millennial reign on Earth. Oh wait and a 3rd thing Armageddon.(misspelled) So I guess my question is what's the view on these items. Because those are hard things to accept as already happened, that is if I understand the doctrine correctly.

    If anyone could please give me an answer I'd appreciate it.

    gwyyn

    ps I'm new here and have been interested in prophesy and the end times for a long time, however I'm nowhere near having the amount of knowledge some of you do. So please take it easy on me while I'm still learning. :pray:
     
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  2. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    A lot of non-preterists or partial preterists don't believe in the rapture; it's a fairly recent belief.

    Can you show me where in Revelation the rapture is?

    -Chris
     
  3. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok I noticed that I said nowhere in Revalations is the rapture, 2nd coming or Armagedoon mentioned. Duh!! ok my brain isn't functioning. I meant to ask the those of the preterist view their views on the above mentioned things.

    However to answer kern's question. The verse I know best in Revelations that to mentions the rapture is Rev. 3:10
    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

    Other verses in the bible that to ME show that the Rapture will occur are
    John 14:3
    And I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take to be with me that you also may be where I am

    1 Thess. 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead n Christ will rise first. After that , we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    ok these are just a few verses, if you would like more let me know. Oh and I use a NIV bible.

    However before I close this, I want to say I'm in now way wanting to change someone's point of view. This is my view, I just posted this thread to get a better understanding of someone else's point of view. So read these verses and take what u want from them, however like I stated above these are the verses that lead me to believe in the rapture.

    gwyyn
     
  4. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi gwyyn,

    I'll try my best to answer that :)

    I read somewhere that some people believe that John 14:3 has nothing to do with the end times. They believe that John 14:3 was fulfilled at pentecost (Acts 2:1-2). Personally I find that a bit of a stretch but I think it's somewhat true, since the invisible kingdom of God (Lk 17:20-21) may possibly be our spiritual home in light of Heb 12:22-24. Also, I'm not advocating that our current physical state is heaven =P But rather it's the kingdom come on earth which reflects what goes on in heaven (Luke 11:2). Isn't the lord's prayer so wonderful? =)

    Anyway, 1 Thes 4:16-17 doesn't say that believers will suddenly disappear, but rather after the dead in Christ are raised, "we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". I believe that after we die, we'll meet the lord in the 'air'. Also the Greek word for 'air' is 'aer' (Strong's number 109). I think this particular use of 'air' is referring to a spiritual realm, much like how it is in Eph 2:2. So that would make sense out of 'meet the lord in the air'.

    As for Rev 3:10, I think you might find this response to be not too satisfactory, or maybe it's just my explanating =P

    Anyway, Rev 3:10 says:

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

    Let's pay attention to those words in bold. The word for 'earth' is also commonly translated as 'arable land' (Gk. 'ge', Strong's number 1093). Matt 2:6, Matt 2:20-21, Matt 4:1,5 for example, use the greek word 'ge' and you'll see that they're translated as 'land' as in the land of Judah (Matt 2:6).

    Also there's a specific word for 'whole world' in the greek. The Greek word is 'Oikoumene' (Strong's number 3625). It specifically refers to the world of the Roman Empire. Check out Luke 2:1 for example:

    In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world (Luke 2:1, NIV)

    But in NKJV it says:

    And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. (Luke 2:1, NKJV)

    KJV also used the phrase 'all the world'. NASB says 'all the inhabited earth'. The 1st century understanding of 'all the world' was that of the Roman Empire.

    According to 2 Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1:2, Cyrus was given all the kingdoms of the earth in his life time. How is that possible? One simple explanation is that 'all the kingdoms' didn't refer to the entire globe, but rather their own understanding of what 'all the kingdoms' were.

    And lastly, we see that in Matt 24:14, Jesus says that the gospel would be preached in the whole world and then the end would come. It's easy to believe that 'whole world' refers to the globe, but context and scripture tell us this isn't the case. Many of the church fathers agreed it was fulfilled in the past. In fact scripture indicates that Matt 24:14 was fulfilled (Col 1:6, Col 1:23, Rom 1:8, Rom 10:16-18). So the logical explanation is that Matt 24:14's use of 'whole world' which in greek is also 'oikoumene' refers to the Roman world/empire.

    Now that 'whole world' and 'earth/land' is understood, we can read Rev 3:10 in a whole new light =)

    "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev 3:10, NIV)

    Also, preterists believe the 'hour of trial' did come upon the 'whole world' (i.e. Roman Empire). By the way, the following link may be useful =)

    http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

    God bless your studies! =)

    -Jason
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi again Gwyyn,
    I have plenty of excellent answers for your above questions, but would first like you to reply to my response to some other questions you had before I take the time to answer these.

    You see, with the effort and time is takes to provide an adaquate response to such involved questions, I'd like to know they will be met with at least equal effort and time on your part in response to the answers. Thus far, I haven't seen that from you, you ask a question, then leave it hang, with no reply to the answer. I trust this is not intentional, and you take this friendly reminder for what it truly is, a friendly reminder.

    That response can be found by clicking HERE and scrolling down to your post, followed immediatly by mine.

    If you do me the honor of responding to me there, I'll gladly post my answers to your latest questions here.

    Lets excercise a little give and take shall we?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
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    Oh, I forgot to mention:

    Some preterists believe there was some physical disappearance of Christians in the past, but I and many other preterists personally don't agree with that. We believe that all christians live a life on earth, and we all die. (Ecc 12:7) Eventually, we will all pass away and that's when we're 'raptured' in to heaven, where we will in our heavenly bodies. :)

    As for the millenium, I can't really answer that. I know next to nothing about it. heh ;)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  7. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok, i have read everyone post, and printed it out so i can sit down and thoroughly look over the verses that were given. Will make a great bible study. however there's another verse that I wish to add in this thread to get your opinion dealing with the rapture.
    Matthew 24: 36-44
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. AS it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be take and the other left. Two woemen will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be take and the other left.
    Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your lord will come. But understand this: If the woner of the house had know at what time of night the tief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have left house to be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    just wondering what your input is on this verse

    gwyyn
     
  8. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Gwyyn,

    Let's look at Matthew 24:37-44 more carefully:

    37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    This verse compares the days of Noah to the coming of the Son of Man

    38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark

    Jesus is saying that the people were living 'worldly' lives.

    39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    It says the flood came and took them all away, and they didn't know about it until it happened. Jesus compares that to the coming of the Son of Man. Remember the flood 'took' them all away.

    40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

    Jesus says that one will be taken, the other left. I don't see how this has anything to do with a disappearance of Christians. It plainly says that one will be taken (as if swept away from Noah's flood), and the other will be left, as if the one that's 'left behind' is saved by God's grace (which is comparable to Noah being 'saved' by boarding the ark).

    41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left

    Jesus is basically saying the same thing as verse 40

    42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

    Remember: Jesus compared Noahs' flood to the coming of the Son of Man. People were drinking, eating, giving into marriage (i.e. living worldly lives), and then the flood came, unbeknownst to them and 'took' them all away. So the same thing applies here: Jesus is clearly speaking to his disciples in verses 42-44, when he says 'you'. That was a command that was given to them to 'keep watch' so that they will continue to abide in Christ. Also, this explains the odd passages of a 'future-expected-salvation'. (Matt 10:22, Romans 13:11, Rom 5:10-11, 1 Thess 5:8, Heb 9:28, Heb 10:36-39, 1 Peter 1:5, Rev 12:10)

    So back in 70 AD, those who stood firm in Christ were those who were 'left behind' (i.e. saved) and those who lived their own lives as they pleased were 'taken' or killed. I think Josephus wrote about this particular event, where millions of Jews were mercilessly killed and every God-centered Christian was 'saved' (i.e. they fled to the mountains as Jesus commanded in Matt 24:16). This is almost the exact opposite of what "Left Behind" theology teaches ;) Then again Matt 24:16 and Matt 24:42-44 could be referring to something else. Any other preterist have an opinion on all this?

    Also, from a preterist viewpoint, we no longer need to 'keep watch' for his 2nd coming, since we believe it's past and that God is now dwelling among us. However, there are MANY lessons and applications that can be learned from this passage. :)

    By the way, you may be wondering, if all end times prophecy was fulfilled, is the Bible still applicable for us? I used to believe that the Bible was written TO us, and FOR us. Yet, when we read scripture we know it's not TO us but only FOR us. The logic is very clear, since we're not the original recipients of scripture :) Otherwise we can read Joshua 6:25 and believe that Rehab the prostitute still lives to this day, or we'll make mistakes by thinking that we have to march around the city of Jericho once a day for six days straight (Joshua 6:3)

    I hope all this was enlightening =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  9. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Hoonbaba says:

    "And lastly, we see that in Matt 24:14, Jesus says that the gospel would be preached in the whole world and then the end would come. It's easy to believe that 'whole world' refers to the globe..."

    Yes, it most certainly is easy to believe that. Especially since that's what Jesus meant. Otherwise, Jesus thought the world was flat, and therefore He cannot be God. Jesus said what He meant. Preterists must twist even the Holy Words of our Lord. That is heretical.
     
  10. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Auntie, the oikoumene (world) in Matt. 24:14 is the same oikoumene in Luke 2:1. The word was specifically used to denote the Roman world, not the globe. Your interpretation is not based on what the word means in the original language...our interpretation is. We are not twisting; you are simply misinterpreting.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  11. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
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    Why do you feel it necessary to use such strong words with people who disagree with you? If you are correct, then you should be able to defend your position without inserting barbs and insults like that.

    -Chris
     
  12. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    It is NOT ME they are disagreeing with kern, but the WORDS OF THE ALL KNOWING GOD. Again, it is NOT MY position, but the WORDS of Jesus, and they need NO defending.

    If you believe the Resurrection, Ascension, and 2nd Coming of our Lord were NOT physical, then you have also bought into heretical doctrine. This is more than "mere disagreement", but a slap in the face to all Christians. The preterist theories do not reflect the beliefs of Christians, nor the Christian Churches.
     
  13. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

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    Auntie, such alleged "twisting" must be intentional to legitimately elicit such a dramatic response. Otherwise, any honest mistake in trying to understand what the Bible says is worthy of eternal damnation. According to you, Martin Luther was surely a dreadfully evil person who wished to lead true Christians astray, because of his rabid anti-Semitism and the fact that he threw out completely a whole book of the Bible and insulted it (the book of James).

    Show me an anti-Christian attitude among these preterists. They, at least, are not meting out eternal damnation and judgment upon those who don't believe similarly. At least THEY don't act like their interpretation of God's word is God's own, and everybody else is not a true Christian.

    Please don't throw judgment around like this. Argue their conclusions, not their motives, which you do not know.
     
  14. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Yikes people we aren't acting the way we are supposed to as Christians?? I started this thread to get a better view point of someone else's beliefs that's it????

    so please don't attack and call names, cause that would contradict the whole idea of being christians.


    gwyyn

    ps, i can see know why there's different denominations, won't have to ask Josephus that question. LOL
     
  15. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Auntie. Please tell me where I've twisted scripture.

    I really wonder if you've read my entire post, and the verses supporting what I've said. Nevertheless, I'll specifically point out what the verses you may've glanced over. Let's take a closer look at scripture again. Jesus says that the gospel would go to the 'whole world':

    And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

    And Apostle Paul says four times that the gospel in fact did go to 'whole world':

    that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. (Colossian 1:6)

    if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (Colossians 1:23)

    First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. (Romans 1:8)

    But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world (Romans 10:16-18)

    With the 'roman world' understanding, it makes a lot of sense, considering that's what Jesus AND Paul meant. Otherwise we'll be forced to believe that the gospel was preached to Japan, China, Austrailia, South America, North America, etc all in the first century, considering apostle Paul says, "EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN" (Col 1:23). If anything, futurists are the ones misunderstanding scripture, not preterists.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  16. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    The following verses point out the first century understanding of 'whole world' or 'oikoumene':

    Acts 11:28 (KJV) - And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

    Luke 2:1 (KJV) - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

    2 Chronicles 36:23 (KJV) - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

    Acts 2:5 (KJV) - And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    Also, here's some quotes by the early Church Fathers on the gospel having been preached to the 'whole world':

    CLEMENT OF ROME (A Contemporary of St. Paul - Late 1st Century)

    (on the martyrdom of Peter and Paul)
    "But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars of the Church have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, HAVING TAUGHT RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THE WHOLE WORLD, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience." (Chap. V.-- The First Epistle to the Corinthians)



    EUSEBIUS (325)

    "THUS, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world; and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures, the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. (Ecclesiastical History, Book II, Ch.III.)

    "But the holy apostles and disciples of our Saviour, being scattered over the whole world, Thomas, according to tradition, received Parthia as his alloted region; Andrew received Scythia, and John, Asia, where, after continuing for some time, he died at Ephesus. Peter appears to have preached through Pontus, Galatia, Bythinia, Cappapodica and Asia, to the Jews that were scattered abroad" (Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Ch. 1)

    "The same historian records another fact still more wonderful than this. He says that a certain oracle was found in their sacred writings which declared that at that time a certain person should go forth from their country to rule the world. He himself understood that this was fulfilled in Vespasian. But Vespasian did not rule the whole world, but only that part of it which was subject to the Romans. With better right could it be applied to Christ; to whom it was said by the Father, "Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession." At that very time, indeed, the voice of his holy apostles "went throughout all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." (Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Ch. 8)



    CHRYSOSTOM (375)

    "After this again, what is more grievous than all, they shall not have so much as the consolation from love. Then indicating, that these things will in no degree harm the noble and the firm, He saith, Fear not, neither be troubled. For if ye show forth the patience that becomes you, the dangers will not prevail over you. And it is a plain proof of this, that the word shall surely be preached everywhere in the world, so much shall ye be above the things that alarm you. For, that they may not say, how then shall we live? He said more, Ye shall both live and preach everywhere. Therefore He added moreover, "And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come," of the downfall of Jerusalem.

    "For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, "Their sound went into all the earth;" and again, "The gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven."(9) And seest thou him running from Jerusalem unto Spain? And if one took so large a portion, consider what the rest also wrought. For writing to others also, Paul again saith con-coming the gospel, that "it is bringing forth fruit, and growing up in every creature which is under Heaven."(10)

    "But what meaneth, "For a witness to all nations?" Forasmuch as though it was everywhere preached, yet it was not everywhere believed. It was for a witness, He saith, to them that were disbelieving, that is, for conviction, for accusation, for a testimony; for they that believed will bear witness against them that believed not, and will condemn them. And for this cause, after the gospel is preached in every part of the world, Jerusalem is destroyed, that they may not have so much as a shadow of an excuse for their perverseness. For they that saw His power shine throughout every place, and in an instant take the world captive, what excuse could they then have for continuing in the same perverseness? For in proof that it was everywhere preached at that time, hear what Paul saith, "of the gospel which was preached to every creature which is
     
  17. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Auntie,

    I hope you read my earlier post. You believe preterists disagree with the words of Jesus, and yet I gave you the definition of the greek word for world ( oikoumene) in Matt. 24:14. Even though various "worlds" are found in the NT, oikoumene is used very sparringly. Out of the hundreds of times "world" is translated, oikoumene is found in only 14 places, and it is defined as the "Roman Empire, Roman world". I would suggest that you find a concordance and confirm this for yourself.

    The oikoumene in Luke 2:1 is exactly the same oikoumene that Jesus speaks of in Matt 24:14, and yet you think that my position is at odds with Christ? Nay, my position is completely in line with Christ's, while yours tries to take the definition of the greek kosmos or ge and somehow apply it to oikoumene, which is a grammatical no no. So no, Auntie, I am disagreeing with you, not the Holy Scriptures, because your interpretation of Matt. 24:14 is not based on the grammatical context of the passage, but on a surface reading of the text.

    This is exactly the same problem we had before with the elements in 2Peter 3:10, I think? You believe that preterists are intentionally "twisting" that scripture, because you feel it is obvious that the elements which will "melt" are the physical elements of nature. And yet if you whip out your concordance you will learn to your amazement that the stoicheion of 2Peter 3 are the "rudiments, principles" of the Law, and not "earth, wind, water, and fire" (how do you melt fire and wind, anyway?). The two other NT passages that use stoicheion will confirm this to be true (Gal. 4:3; 4:9).

    So as you say, the words of Jesus need no defending. But His words need to be studied so that your position really does line up with what He has said, and at this point, your position on Matt 24:14 and 2Peter 3:10 does not. Hoonbaba's posts have done a fine job of explaining this as well.

    I believe that the Resurrection was physical. I believe that the Ascension was physical. The 2nd Coming I'm not quite sure about, and those doubts are based on purely scriptural reasons. Preterist theories have reflected the beliefs of many Christians and many Christian Churches throughout history; it is futurism that is the new kid ont the block, and is not an historic position of the Church. It is a recent addition.

    Thank you, Kern and Gwyyn, for your continued call for respect, dispite eschatological disagreement.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  18. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    Ok sorry it took me so long but had lots of verses to read. I can see where your views come from. But what is strongs???
     
  19. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Hi gwyyn,

    I didn't realize you weren't aware of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:)

    What's Strong's Exhaustive Concordance you ask?

    -------------
    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance lists every significant word in the Bible and references each word to the original Hebrew and Greek languages used by the writers. The concordance was first published in 1890 by Dr. James Strong. His life's work was to provide students of the Bible with an accurate and functional tool to understand the language of God. He and others worked on the list over a period of 35 years without the aid of technology as we know it today. Dr. Strong's work has stood the test of time and is still recognized as one of the essential aids to studying the Bible by people all over the world.
    -------------

    Strong's number 3625 is "Oikoumene". Anyway, you can look up the word by clicking here. The link provides every verse that use the word, so it'll be very useful =)

    Also, if you want/need to look up verses quickly, check out bible.crosswalk.com or www.biblegateway.com (this one's a little faster, but the first one has a concordance and such)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  20. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok ty, Jason. No I haven't heard of Strongs before, but glad i know about it now. It'll come in handy.

    thanks again
     
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