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Presumptuous Creationists

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by DialecticMaterialist, Sep 8, 2002.

  1. blader

    blader Evilutionist

    When reasoning fails...

    try sarcasm!
  2. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    The earth is 4.5-5 billion years old. This is not a theory. This is a fact.

    Which one is the fact?

    Where did this "fact" come from?
    The presumed ages for the earth and the universe keep changing. Do the "facts" keep changing also?

    Are the "facts" whatever we make them at the moment?
  3. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    No. 4.5-5 billion years is an estimate, but it is a fact the earth is billions of years old.

    Duane Morse,

    Are you a YEC?
  4. RufusAtticus

    RufusAtticus PopGen Grad Student

  5. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    Facts are provable, so it is still just an guess.

    As to me being a YEC, not really. But I do believe the time between Adam and Eve until the present is closer to 6000 years, and that Man did not evolve, but was created by God in the image of God, male and female, fully developed and "evolved" from the start. And that the events described in the Bible are accurate as to timing and content.
  6. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    Then you are a YEC. I believe that Adam and Eve were babies when they were created, not adults and I believe this event took place at least 50,000 years ago. I also believe in evolution and not so much in special creation, though i do believe God created all things.
  7. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    How does that make me a YEC?
    God made Adam on the third "day", before the heavenly bodies. The heavenly bodies were placed there for times, seasons, days and years.
    So the 24 hour period for a "day" was not set until at least then. How much "time" elapsed between the two "days"?
    And the years for Adam were not recorded until Adam was split into Adam and Eve on the sixth "day". How much "time" elapsed between the third and sixth "days"?

    I said I believed the time between Adam and Eve and the present is closer to 6000 years. That does not include the time previous to the splitting of Adam into Adam and Eve. For all I know, millions or billions of years could have elapsed during the first five "days" of creation. The Bible gives no indication of how long these "days" were.

    So while I have no doubts that God could have done it in seven 24-hour periods, or seven 24-millisecond periods, I do not believe this to be the case.
  8. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    Adam was created on the sixth "day", not the third.
  9. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    No, Adam was created on the third day just before the plants.
    The first chapter of Genesis gives the account of the sixth day when Adam was split into Adam and Eve, but in chapter two it is stated that Adam was first created on the third day before the plants. It was here on the third day that Adam was created as a single being, both male and female. On the sixth day God causes Adam to fall asleep, and Adam is split into two separate bodies, one the male Adam and the other the female Eve.
    It was at this point that the years begin counting for the age of Adam.
  10. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    If Adam was created before the plants, what did he eat?
  11. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    I do not know. Maybe in that original body Adam did not need to eat.
    I think it was not until Adam was split into Adam and Eve that God told them that they were to eat.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    Adam did not need to eat prior to being split into separate male and female bodies.
  12. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    Those verses imply that it was more than one person, and that they were a separate male and female, not one together. Also, that verse refers to the sixth "day", not the third. Man was not around before plants, stars, animals, or anything else. Humans are actually relatively new compared to things like stars, plants, and prehistoric animals, only being around for thousands of years, while stars have been around for 10 billion+ years, however, the sun has only been around about as long as the earth and may not be as old as the earth.
  13. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    This clearly states that Man was formed before the plants on the third day.
    And it was at this point that Adam was a single being, both male and female.
    Adam was a living soul, not souls, both male and female.
    On the sixth day Adam was split into separate male and female bodies which is described in Genesis 1.
    The text interleaves so it may not be easy to catch, but this is the order of events.
  14. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    Have you ever considered that this passage may be symbolic? Also, this talks about trees IN THE GARDEN, not trees and plants in general.
  15. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    United States
    Here's how it works in the scientific community. (roughly)

    When observations and measurements are made by a scientist, he/she may develope a hypothesis. If so, the scientist 'tests' his/her hypothesis by trying to disprove it. When satisfied, confidence gets higher, and the hypothesis is then tested by his/her colleagues, again trying to disprove it. When satisfied at this point, confidence gets even higher, and the hypothesis is sent to a board of referees, who look at various methods used, flaws in testing procedures, etc. When accepted at this level, confidence begins to soar, and the hypothesis is published in international juornals, to be scrutinized by worldwide scientific peers. If accepted at this level, confidence goes through the roof, and maybe it will be accepted as a scientific 'theory'.

    In the scientific community, a 'theory' is extremely high in the confidence level, and should not be confused with the layman's term of a theory, (which could mean some half baked idea, or a random guess).

    So, in the context of science, to say, 'It's only a theory', is akin to refering to an athlete as 'Only a Gold Medal winner'.

  16. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    Jehovahs Witness
    What Does Genesis actually Say?

    AS WITH other things that are misrepresented or misunderstood, the first chapter of the Bible deserves at least a fair hearing. The need is to investigate and determine whether it harmonizes with known facts, not to mold it to fit some theoretical framework. Also to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the “how” of creation. Rather, it covers major events in a progressive way, describing what things were formed, the order in which they were formed and the time interval, or “day,” in which each first appeared.

    When examining the Genesis account, it is helpful to keep in mind that it approaches matters from the standpoint of people on earth. So it describes events as they would have been seen by human observers had they been present. This can be noted from its treatment of events on the fourth Genesis “day.” There the sun and moon are described as great luminaries in comparison to the stars. Yet many stars are far greater than our sun, and the moon is insignificant in comparison to them. But not to an earthly observer. So, as seen from the earth, the sun appears to be a ‘greater light that rules the day’ and the moon a ‘lesser light that dominates the night.’—Genesis 1:14-18.

    The first part of Genesis indicates that the earth could have existed for billions of years before the first Genesis “day,” though it does not say for how long. However, it does describe what earth’s condition was just before that first “day” began: “Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.”—Genesis 1:2.

    How Long Is a Genesis “Day”?
    Many consider the word “day” used in Genesis chapter 1 to mean 24 hours. However, in Genesis 1:5 God himself is said to divide day into a smaller period of time, calling just the light portion “day.” In Genesis 2:4 all the creative periods are called one “day”: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day [all six creative periods] that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”

    The Hebrew word yohm, translated “day,” can mean different lengths of time. Among the meanings possible, William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies includes the following: “A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration . . . Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.” 1 This last sentence appears to fit the creative “days,” for certainly they were periods when extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for periods much longer than 24 hours.

    Genesis chapter 1 uses the expressions “evening” and “morning” relative to the creative periods. Does this not indicate that they were 24 hours long? Not necessarily. In some places people often refer to a man’s lifetime as his “day.” They speak of “my father’s day” or “in Shakespeare’s day.” They may divide up that lifetime “day,” saying “in the morning [or dawn] of his life” or “in the evening [or twilight] of his life.” So ‘evening and morning’ in Genesis chapter 1 does not limit the meaning to a literal 24 hours.

    “Day” as used in the Bible can include summer and winter, the passing of seasons. (Zechariah 14:8) “The day of harvest” involves many days. (Compare Proverbs 25:13 and Genesis 30:14.) A thousand years are likened to a day. (Psalm 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8, 10) “Judgment Day” covers many years. (Matthew 10:15; 11:22-24) It would seem reasonable that the “days” of Genesis could likewise have embraced long periods of time—millenniums. What, then, took place during those creative eras? Is the Bible’s account of them scientific? Following is a review of these “days” as expressed in Genesis.

    First “Day”
    “‘Let light come to be.’ Then there came to be light. And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.”—Genesis 1:3, 5.

    Of course the sun and moon were in outer space long before this first “day,” but their light did not reach the surface of the earth for an earthly observer to see. Now, light evidently came to be visible on earth on this first “day,” and the rotating earth began to have alternating days and nights.

    Apparently, the light came in a gradual process, extending over a long period of time, not instantaneously as when you turn on an electric light bulb. The Genesis rendering by translator J. W. Watts reflects this when it says: “And gradually light came into existence.” (A Distinctive Translation of Genesis) This light was from the sun, but the sun itself could not be seen through the overcast. Hence, the light that reached earth was “light diffused,” as indicated by a comment about ÞGe 1 Üverse 3 in Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible.—See footnote b for ÞGe 1 Üverse 14.

    Second “Day”
    “‘Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’ Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. And God began to call the expanse Heaven.”—Genesis 1:6-8.

    Some translations use the word “firmament” instead of “expanse.” From this the argument is made that the Genesis account borrowed from creation myths that represent this “firmament” as a metal dome. But even the King James Version Bible, which uses “firmament,” says in the margin, “expansion.” This is because the Hebrew word ra·qi'a`, translated “expanse,” means to stretch out or spread out or expand.

    The Genesis account says that God did it, but it does not say how. In whatever way the described separation occurred, it would look as though the ‘waters above’ had been pushed up from the earth. And birds could later be said to fly in “the expanse of the heavens,” as stated at Genesis 1:20.

    Third “Day”
    “‘Let the waters under the heavens be brought together into one place and let the dry land appear.’ And it came to be so. And God began calling the dry land Earth, but the bringing together of the waters he called Seas.” (Genesis 1:9, 10) As usual, the account does not describe how this was done. No doubt, tremendous earth movements would have been involved in the formation of land areas. Geologists would explain such major upheavals as catastrophism. But Genesis indicates direction and control by a Creator.

    In the Biblical account where God is described as questioning Job about his knowledge of the earth, a variety of developments concerning earth’s history are described: its measurements, its cloud masses, its seas and how their waves were limited by dry land—many things in general about the creation, spanning long periods of time. Among these things, comparing earth to a building, the Bible says that God asked Job: “Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, or who laid its cornerstone?”—Job 38:6.

    Interestingly, like “socket pedestals,” earth’s crust is much thicker under continents and even more so under mountain ranges, pushing deep into the underlying mantle, like tree roots into soil. “The idea that mountains and continents had roots has been tested over and over again, and shown to be valid,” says Putnam’s Geology. 2 Oceanic crust is only about 5 miles thick, but continental roots go down about 20 miles and mountain roots penetrate about twice that far. And all earth’s layers press inward upon earth’s core from all directions, making it like a great “cornerstone” of support.

    Whatever means were used to accomplish the raising up of dry land, the important point is: Both the Bible and science recognize it as one of the stages in the forming of the earth.
  17. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    Jehovahs Witness

    Land Plants on Third “Day”
    The Bible account adds: “‘Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.’ And it came to be so.”—Genesis 1:11.

    Thus by the close of this third creative period, three broad categories of land plants had been created. The diffused light would have become quite strong by then, ample for the process of photosynthesis so vital to green plants. Incidentally, the account here does not mention every “kind” of plant that came on the scene. Microscopic organisms, water plants and others are not specifically named, but likely were created on this “day.”

    Fourth “Day”
    “‘Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years. And they must serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.’ And it came to be so. And God proceeded to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars.”—Genesis 1:14-16.

    Previously, on the first “day,” the expression “Let light come to be” was used. The Hebrew word there used for “light” is ’ohr, meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth “day,” the Hebrew word changes to ma·’ohr', which means the source of the light. Rotherham, in a footnote on “Luminaries” in the Emphasised Bible, says: “In ver. ÞGe 1:Ü3, ’ôr [’ohr], light diffused.” Then he goes on to show that the Hebrew word ma·’ohr' in ÞGe 1 Üverse 14 means something “affording light.” On the first “day” diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers still enveloping the earth. Now, on this fourth “day,” things apparently changed.

    An atmosphere initially rich in carbon dioxide may have caused an earth-wide hot climate. But the lush growth of vegetation during the third and fourth creative periods would absorb some of this heat-retaining blanket of carbon dioxide. The vegetation, in turn, would release oxygen—a requirement for animal life.—Psalm 136:7-9.

    Now, had there been an earthly observer, he would be able to discern the sun, moon and stars, which would “serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years.” (Genesis 1:14) The moon would indicate the passing of lunar months, and the sun the passing of solar years. The seasons that now “came to be” on this fourth “day” would no doubt have been much milder than they became later on.—Genesis 1:15; 8:20-22.

    Fifth “Day”
    “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.”—Genesis 1:20, 21.

    It is of interest to note that the nonhuman creatures with which the waters were to swarm are called “living souls.” This term would also apply to the “flying creatures [that] fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse.” And it would also embrace the forms of sea and air life, such as the sea monsters, whose fossil remains scientists have found in recent times.

    Sixth “Day”
    “‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.’ And it came to be so.”—Genesis 1:24.

    Thus on the sixth “day,” land animals characterized as wild and domestic appeared. But this final “day” was not over. One last remarkable “kind” was to come:

    “And God went on to say: ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.’ And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.”—Genesis 1:26, 27.

    Chapter 2 of Genesis apparently adds some details. However, it is not, as some have concluded, another account of creation in conflict with that of ÞGe Üchapter 1. It just takes up at a point in the third “day,” after dry land appeared but before land plants were created, adding details that were pertinent to the arrival of humans—Adam the living soul, his garden home, Eden, and the woman Eve, his wife.—Genesis 2:5-9, 15-18, 21, 22.

    The foregoing is presented to help us understand what Genesis says. And this quite realistic account indicates that the creative process continued throughout a period of, not just 144 hours (6 × 24), but over many millenniums of time.

    How Did Genesis Know?

    Many find it hard to accept this creation account. They contend that it is drawn from the creation myths of ancient peoples, primarily those from ancient Babylon. However, as one recent Bible dictionary noted: “No myth has yet been found which explicitly refers to the creation of the universe” and the myths “are marked by polytheism and the struggles of deities for supremacy in marked contrast to the Heb[rew] monotheism of [Genesis] 1-2.” 3 Regarding Babylonian creation legends, the trustees of the British Museum stated: “The fundamental conceptions of the Babylonian and Hebrew accounts are essentially different.”

    From what we have considered, the Genesis creation account emerges as a scientifically sound document. It reveals the larger categories of plants and animals, with their many varieties, reproducing only “according to their kinds.” The fossil record provides confirmation of this. In fact, it indicates that each “kind” appeared suddenly, with no true transitional forms linking it with any previous “kind,” as required by the evolution theory.

    All the knowledge of the wise men of Egypt could not have furnished Moses, the writer of Genesis, any clue to the process of creation. The creation myths of ancient peoples bore no resemblance to what Moses wrote in Genesis. Where, then, did Moses learn all these things? Apparently from someone who was there.

    The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order: (1) a beginning; (2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water; (3) light; (4) an expanse or atmosphere; (5) large areas of dry land; (6) land plants; (7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning; (8) sea monsters and flying creatures; (9) wild and tame beasts, mammals; (10) man. Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
  18. Sky

    Sky Active Member


    Excellent post.
  19. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    United States
    Actually, man dates back to well beyond 6000 years. One example that comes to mind is in the Tibetan mountains and plateaus. There are plenty of artifacts and remains, dating before the last Ice Age.

  20. Duane Morse

    Duane Morse Well-Known Member

    No, I do not consider it symbolic. Why should it be considered so? It is clear and precise. This is where and when Adam was first formed from the dust of the ground and had the spirit breathed into him. He was both male and female.
    You do not understand it because you do not understand the heart.
    Adam was a soul, a single soul, both male and female. That is why Eve was taken out of Adam for his wife instead of God creating another female soul to complement Adam. The complement is already there. They are one and always will be so, whether they are in a single body or separate bodies.

    This is what is meant by, what God has joined together let no man put asunder.