Preserved Saints

[Trento]

Well, it says BONES of Elisha...he had decayed.

Now, if it was the BONES of Elisha that healed the man, then people from all over the world would be flocking to the tomb in order to touch the bones and be healed...much like what happens today when someone claims that some corpse healed them.

Obviously, God healed the man, not Elisha's bones. God hates idolatry.[/quote]


This is another straw man because you think we believe in our own power.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Well, it says BONES of Elisha...he had decayed.

Now, if it was the BONES of Elisha that healed the man, then people from all over the world would be flocking to the tomb in order to touch the bones and be healed...much like what happens today when someone claims that some corpse healed them.

Obviously, God healed the man, not Elisha's bones. God hates idolatry.[/quote]


This is another straw man because you think we believe in our own power.

No, you believe in the power of the spirit of the dead corpse otherwise you would not pray to them for help and venerate their relics so that they will help you.

 

[E.C.]

No, you believe in the power of the spirit of the dead corpse otherwise you would not pray to them for help and venerate their relics so that they will help you.

Actually, I see a lot of misunderstanding going on here.

Jen, seems to think that venerating the bones of a holy person is wrong.

Now, there are many cases of people being healed when venerating relics. Is it the bone itself that heals? No. It is God healing through the bones. Why does he do this? Well, no human on this earth knows how God thinks, but based upon unbiased sources, past experiences and most of all faith; we can make a fairly educated guess.

When one venerates a relic, one typically kisses said relic. This is honoring, or venerating; not worship. If one gave their mother a kiss, is that honoring or worshiping?
Moving on...

God works through those that were close to Him when the holy folks were on the earth. When said person reposes (or dies - such a limiting and ominous word) the soul leaves the body. We know this. However, God still works wonders through the persons relics. There are countless upon countless cases of people being (dare I say) healed by God via the relics.


Jen, I can understand why you would see veneration as idolatry. But please respect those of us who do not. Veneration goes all the way back to the 1st or 2nd century. I believe the first recorded bit of veneration is when St. Ignatius of Antioch was martyred in Colosseum in Rome when the local Christians took his body and placed it upon their altar.

 

[Axion]

Gee whiz...you haven't even quoted the entire account. There are two or three doctors accounts posted on the link. I have underlined the descriptions that detail that the body is decomposing or at least mummified. It certainly isn't as soft and supple as the day she died.

No, because she's mummified by all the carbon and salt thrown into her coffins over the years.

This is nonsense. How does a few grammes of carbon mummify anyone? This is just nonsense! You just seem to be clinging on to anything, however wild and improbab;e to support your preconceptions. And of course you "failed" to read that the calcium salt found on her skin was there only after the SECOND opening of the coffin, and most likely came from the washing with (Calcium based) soap after the first opening in 1909.
​

DO a little research. There are many carbon-based preservatives. Whoever threw the carbon and calcium salts and crystals in the coffin had one purpose in mind...and it still didn't work. All they did was mummify the body.​

YOU do a little research and tell me how traces of carbon mummify a body. And how do traces of calcium salt on the skin mummify a body for forty years BEFORE they appear on the scene? To preserve a body in any salt the concentrations have to be HUGE and obvious. And even that doesnt work for long. Leave a piece of ham in a box for a year or two - and see! Even the most drastic Egyptian processes in desert conditions. couldn't preserve internal organs from corruption within the body. yet apparently the nuns did all thios with a handful of carbon??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3769554
​

What miracle? Her nose was dilated and shruken. Her skin was shriveled and gray. Her muscles had atrophied. She had mildew all over her skin...

You are blatantly twisting and exaggerating the accounts. She did not "have mildew all over her skin"

The "patches of mildew" occurred AFTER the first opening and washing. What does the bible say about those who mislead and bear false witness?

People are digging up bodies, throwing "preservatives" in coffins, putting the bodies on display in various stages of decomposition and/or mummification, covering some with wax and saying, "Look...it's incorruptible!", even while the bodies themselves are turning all shades of colors and shriveling up before your eyes.

Are people really that hard up for a miracle from God?

Some people refuse to see a miracle if it appears in front of their noses. There are none so blind as thiose who refuse to see.
You are alleging some mysterious mummification process accomplished by throwing a handful of carbon into a damp coffin in a cellar. this is nonsense.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Acts 5:15-16: “. . . they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”

Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” (cf. Mt 9:20-22)

 

[Trento]

=HisdaughterJen;37599106
No, you believe in the power of the spirit of the dead corpse otherwise you would not pray to them for help and venerate their relics so that they will help you.

There is nothing in the scriptures that would indicate this. Scriptures tell us that not even death can separate us from Christ. "[N]either death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:38-39). If we are united with Christ, then we are also united with each other. Those who have departed before us in faith are the "cloud of witnesses" that surround us in Hebrews 12:1.
Scripture teaches us that "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). Who is more righteous than one united with Christ in heaven? These Christians have "been made perfect" (Heb. 12:23) and so we should expect their prayers to be more effective than any we could offer here on earth.

Personal experience of Maureen Digan who was stricken with an incurable disease and, over the next several years, lost her faith, her hope, and one leg. In 1981 the Digans made a pilgrimage to Sister Faustina Kowalska's tomb in Poland. Before the age of 15, Maureen enjoyed a normal healthy life. Then she was struck down with a very serious, slowly progressive but terminal disease called lymphedima. This is a disease that does not respond to medication and does not go into remission. Within the next ten years Maureen had fifty operations and had lengthy confinements in the hospital of up to a year at a time.
Friends and relations suggested she should pray and put her trust in God. But Maureen could not understand why God had allowed her to get this disease in the first place, and had lost her faith completely. Eventually her deteriorating condition would require the amputation of one leg.
One evening while Maureen was in the hospital her husband Bob watched a film on Divine Mercy and there he became convinced of the healing powers of intercession by Sr. Faustina. Bob persuaded Maureen and the doctors that she should go to the tomb of Sr. Faustina in Poland. Together with her husband, son, and Fr. Seraphim Michalenko, MIC (a priest of the Congregation of Marians of the Immaculate Conception), they traveled to St. Faustina's tomb at the Shrine of The Divine Mercy outside Krakow, Poland. They arrived in Poland on March 23, 1981 and Maureen went to confession for the first time since she was a young girl.
At the tomb Maureen remembers praying for healing. Suddenly she thought she was losing her mind. All the pain seemed to drain out of her body and her swollen leg, which was due to be amputated shortly, went back to its normal size. When she returned to the USA she was examined by five independent doctors who came to the conclusion that she was completely healed. They had no medical explanation for the sudden healing of this incurable disease.
"To me, my spiritual healing was much greater than my physical one," Maureen nonetheless admitted. "Go to confession and tell it all," she advised, warning against the temptation to omit certain sins.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Acts 5:15-16: “. . . they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”

Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” (cf. Mt 9:20-22)

It is not the shadows, handkerchiefs or aprons that healed anybody. It is faith in God....not faith in Peter or Paul.

Even Jesus said faith heals:
Mat 9:22Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment. Mar 5:34He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering." Mar 10:52"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road. Luk 8:48Then he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace." Luk 18:42Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."


And those without faith:

Mat 13:58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


Now, from the outside, looking in...I see people praying to and worshipping (define your level of worship however you wish) the dead bodies, spirits and their relics in order to receive a miracle from them.

The Biblical accounts don't have people venerating a bone or any relic for a miracle. The Biblical accounts are just like the woman with the issue of blood who reached out to touch Jesus. It was her faith, her belief that God will heal her, if she only reached out...

 

[HisdaughterJen]

[/SIZE]

This is nonsense. How does a few grammes of carbon mummify anyone? This is just nonsense! You just seem to be clinging on to anything, however wild and improbab;e to support your preconceptions. And of course you "failed" to read that the calcium salt found on her skin was there only after the SECOND opening of the coffin, and most likely came from the washing with (Calcium based) soap after the first opening in 1909.
​

YOU do a little research and tell me how traces of carbon mummify a body. And how do traces of calcium salt on the skin mummify a body for forty years BEFORE they appear on the scene? To preserve a body in any salt the concentrations have to be HUGE and obvious. And even that doesnt work for long. Leave a piece of ham in a box for a year or two - and see! Even the most drastic Egyptian processes in desert conditions. couldn't preserve internal organs from corruption within the body. yet apparently the nuns did all thios with a handful of carbon??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3769554
​

You are blatantly twisting and exaggerating the accounts. She did not "have mildew all over her skin"

The "patches of mildew" occurred AFTER the first opening and washing. What does the bible say about those who mislead and bear false witness?



Some people refuse to see a miracle if it appears in front of their noses. There are none so blind as thiose who refuse to see.
You are alleging some mysterious mummification process accomplished by throwing a handful of carbon into a damp coffin in a cellar. this is nonsense.

You didn't read the account.

It wasn't a handful or a few grams of carbon. It wasn't traces of calcium salt. It was large quantities of both.

"The lower parts of the body had turned slightly black. This seems to have been the result of the carbon of which quite large quantities were found in the coffin.
In witness of which we have duly drawn up this present statement in which all is truthfully recorded.
Nevers, September 22, 1909
Drs. Ch. David, A. Jourdan. "

" Doctor Comte continues: "From this examination I conclude that the body of the Venerable Bernadette is intact, the skeleton is complete, the muscles have atrophied, but are well preserved; only the skin, which has shrivelled, seems to have suffered from the effects of the damp in the coffin. It has taken on a greyish tinge and is covered with patches of mildew and quite a large number of crystals and calcium salts;"

Both quotes from:http://mike.friese.com/pilgrimage/paris/bernaut.html


So, undoubtedly in 1879, when the woman died, the people who buried her put "quite large quantities" of CARBON in her coffin. Who does that? What's the purpose? Knowing that some preservatives today are carbon based, my guess is that in 1879, people thought carbon was a preservative and wanted to perpetuate an illusion. So after 30 years, they dug her up to see. The people who buried her were probably still around to see if their method worked.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Actually, I see a lot of misunderstanding going on here.

I pray that this is the case.

Jen, seems to think that venerating the bones of a holy person is wrong.

Uh...that would be a big, big YES because God said to worship only Him, seek only Him, have no other gods before Him. Do you think God sees a difference between worshipping an inanimate object or spirits of the dead if it's not the same kind of worship but lesser worship? There's no Biblical account of their being a difference....God called it...all of it...Idolatry:
Lev 26:1" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God. Lev 26:30I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. Num 33:52drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places.

These are only 3 of many, many scriptures regarding idols.

Now, there are many cases of people being healed when venerating relics. Is it the bone itself that heals? No. It is God healing through the bones. Why does he do this? Well, no human on this earth knows how God thinks, but based upon unbiased sources, past experiences and most of all faith; we can make a fairly educated guess.

Then why do people rush to their tombs and worship them?

When one venerates a relic, one typically kisses said relic. This is honoring, or venerating; not worship. If one gave their mother a kiss, is that honoring or worshiping?
Moving on...

According to the RCC: Your mom is not on the "A" list for latria, hyper-dulia/super-veneration, dulia. That kind of worship is for God, Mary, angels and spirits of the dead. She is on the "B" list for honor below clergy. So you can't compare the two.

God works through those that were close to Him when the holy folks were on the earth. When said person reposes (or dies - such a limiting and ominous word) the soul leaves the body. We know this. However, God still works wonders through the persons relics. There are countless upon countless cases of people being (dare I say) healed by God via the relics.


Jen, I can understand why you would see veneration as idolatry. But please respect those of us who do not. Veneration goes all the way back to the 1st or 2nd century. I believe the first recorded bit of veneration is when St. Ignatius of Antioch was martyred in Colosseum in Rome when the local Christians took his body and placed it upon their altar.

Idolatry goes back further than that. Why not find out what pagan Roman and Greek cultures did and see if it compares? It will be quite an eye-opener for you. They would pray to spirits which had different "specialties" incredibly similar to "patrol saints" today. They would have idols, statues, altars that they would "venerate". They had festivals similar to "feast days". It was all pagan idolatry. It has continued to this day with a Christian spin. We are to run from any hint of it. Check it out:

http://library.thinkquest.org/28111/newpage1.htm

http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

 

[Thekla]

I think, Jen , it would be best to first remember that "we" are not pagan.

Then, secondly, to consider that your world-view is not "all-encompassing" and may be inappropriate for assessing others.
You are not, of course, required to see anything through another person's eyes (or heart), but must allow that not everyone sees situations as you do.

 

[Andrew21091]

people "venerate" them (keeping in mind that "venerate" is a form or worship, just not the "highest" form reserved for God according the the RCC).

Venerate is not the same as worship. Veneration means to honor or have respect. When I venerate an icon of Christ, the Theotokos, or a saint. I am showing honor to who is depicted in the icon. We do not worship or pray to the icons, we Orthodox pray in the presence of them.

Did Jesus ever say, "oh holy saint Moses, ask God to cure this man of this horrible disease." NO!

Jesus wouldn't have to because He is God. Also, we do not ask Saints to heal us. We ask for their prayers, just as we would if we were asking a friend to pray for us.

Did Jesus ever pull out a relic or bone of a dead man and "venerate" it, expecting a miracle? NO!

Why would He? He is God as I said above. I don't look for miracles in icons or relics. If I want to be rid of sickness, I will ask God to help me with the sickness.

Maybe we should seek the Biblical definition of idolatry...

Exd 20:3"You shall have no other gods before* me.

The Orthodox Church has no other gods but our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Andrew21091]

Many miracles have happened with icons and relics before. Such as the icon of the Theotokos that was struck with a knife by a pirate and it started bleeding. The pirate saw it and he repented and lived the rest of his life as a monk.

Another miracle that happened involving an icon is when St. Seraphim of Sarov was a young boy, he became very ill and he was miraculously healed when an icon of the Theotokos was put in his room.

How do you know it wasn't a work of God? In fact, how can we know that it was an act of God? We won't know. It is a mystery of God. Same goes for the preservation of the Saints.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Venerate is not the same as worship. Veneration means to honor or have respect. When I venerate an icon of Christ, the Theotokos, or a saint. I am showing honor to who is depicted in the icon. We do not worship or pray to the icons, we Orthodox pray in the presence of them.

Ok, you're going to have to explain that to me.
What is the difference between an "icon" and and "idol"?
You have said it is a "depiction" of the person.

What is the difference between praying to them and praying "in the presence" of them?

Isn't this the very thing that God warned about over and over in His Word?

Jesus wouldn't have to because He is God. Also, we do not ask Saints to heal us. We ask for their prayers, just as we would if we were asking a friend to pray for us.

They are spirits of the dead. Your friend is not. The only account in the Bible of someone seeking help from a spirit of a dead person was Saul trying to get help from the dead Samuel through the witch of Endor, a medium.
He did so because God wasn't answering him. So which role do you want to play in that scenario? Saul or the medium?

Why would Jesus say the following if it is His will that we ask others to ask God on our behalf:
Jhn 16:26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
Jhn 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.


Think about that.
Jesus himself says that he doesn't ask the Father on our behalf....why would we pray that Mary or any other person do so?

There is a difference between asking a friend (living) lift you up in prayer and praying to a spirit of a dead person to ask God to help you.

 

[Thekla]

Ok, you're going to have to explain that to me.
What is the difference between an "icon" and and "idol"?
You have said it is a "depiction" of the person.

What is the difference between praying to them and praying "in the presence" of them?

Isn't this the very thing that God warned about over and over in His Word?





They are spirits of the dead. Your friend is not. The only account in the Bible of someone seeking help from a spirit of a dead person was Saul trying to get help from the dead Samuel through the witch of Endor, a medium.
He did so because God wasn't answering him. So which role do you want to play in that scenario? Saul or the medium?

Why would Jesus say the following if it is His will that we ask others to ask God on our behalf:
Jhn 16:26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.
Jhn 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.


Think about that.
Jesus himself says that he doesn't ask the Father on our behalf....why would we pray that Mary or any other person do so?

There is a difference between asking a friend (living) lift you up in prayer and praying to a spirit of a dead person to ask God to help you.

Again, Jen, if reposed Christians are dead in the sense that you claim, then death has conquered Christ - the body of Christ.

We have previously discussed that we do NOT "conjure using mediums". We ask others to pray for us.

I'm sorry, but it seems you are not interested in understanding, but in accusing. Certainly, this cannot be the case, can it ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Again, Jen, if reposed Christians are dead in the sense that you claim, then death has conquered Christ - the body of Christ.

We have previously discussed that we do NOT "conjure using mediums". We ask others to pray for us.

I'm sorry, but it seems you are not interested in understanding, but in accusing. Certainly, this cannot be the case, can it ?

No, it's not the case....not trying to accuse.

I am having great difficulty reconciling this practice/these practices with the Word of God.

He was very clear about idolatry in all it's forms. So why would He then grant lesser god status to Mary, angels and spirits of the dead? Why would He then say it's ok to 'venerate' relics and bones? Why would He then say its ok to have amulets and altars and icons and statues?

God cannot lie nor does He change.

 

[Thekla]

No, it's not the case....not trying to accuse.

I am having great difficulty reconciling this practice/these practices with the Word of God.

He was very clear about idolatry in all it's forms. So why would He then grant lesser god status to Mary, angels and spirits of the dead? Why would He then say it's ok to 'venerate' relics and bones? Why would He then say its ok to have amulets and altars and icons and statues?

God cannot lie nor does He change.

Who said Mary is a "lesser god" ?

Are Christians who have died in Sheol ?

Why do you call this practice "idolotry" ? The only evidence you provide that this is "idolotry" is your own impression -- do you perhaps think we are "hiding something" or lying ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Who said Mary is a "lesser god" ?

Because of this:
www.truecatholic.org/pope/honor.htm

"Hyperdulia or super veneration is given to only one created being, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary. It shows that Mary, the Mother of God, is so highly blessed and endowed by God that she stands alone in her class. She is above all the angels and all the Saints. She is the Queen of Heaven."

Class? Class of what?

Here is the order of worship according to RCC:
1. God gets "latria"
2. Mary gets "super-veneration or hyper-dulia"
3. Saints and angels get "dulia"
These people are in heaven.
Then, those on earth get "simple honor" and include
1. Pope
2. Clergy and dignitaries
3. Father
4. Mother

Also from the same website:
"There are times when we find books that say we venerate sacred objects. That statement needs correction. We give relative adoration (latria) to the images of God. We give relative super veneration (hyperdulia) to images of the Blessed Virgin Mary. We give relative veneration (dulia) to the images of the angels and Saints (other than the Blessed Virgin Mary)."

This is the very definition of idolatry:
"idolatry - the worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God
idol worship
worship - the activity of worshipping

iconolatry - the worship of sacred images"

from this website: www.thefreedictionary.com/idolatry

Are Christians who have died in Sheol ?

They are with Christ.

Why do you call this practice "idolotry" ?
The only evidence you provide that this is "idolotry" is your own impression --

see evidence above.

do you perhaps think we are "hiding something" or lying ?

I think that "incorruptibles" are a lie. They are in various stages of decay/mummification and some have wax masks to hide the decay. That is a lie, an illusion, a charade. It is clergy and church hierarchy (who are supposed to tell the truth) putting forth and propagating lies by covering up decay with wax and telling the masses it's incorrupible. Saint Bernadette is the prime example.
www.nycwax.com/

For Bernadette: www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html
"The firm of Pierre Imans in Paris was contacted, and they agreed to make the necessary masks."

from this website: www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/12/hardy.htm
[SIZE=-1]"Trust Pierre Imans, madame!" Monsieur Bourgeot said. "The Blessed Bernadette will look as beautiful in death as in life, and no one shall suspect a thing!" ...[/SIZE]


So, yeah, it is a lie and somebody is hiding something, obviously.

 

[Thekla]

Because of this:
www.truecatholic.org/pope/honor.htm

Is everyone responding to you RCC ?
http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/honor.htm

This is the very definition of idolatry:
"idolatry - the worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God
idol worship
worship - the activity of worshipping

iconolatry - the worship of sacred images"

from this website: www.thefreedictionary.com/idolatry

You seem to think this proves we are idolaters based on what you think is going on. Many have explained otherwise -- but you can't seem to think we are "straight" with you. Why ?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idolatry

So, yeah, it is a lie and somebody is hiding something, obviously.

Is it me ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Is everyone responding to you RCC ?

I don't understand the question...
EDIT: Wait...I understand...Are the Orthodox practices in these matters different than the RCC? Both religions are practicing them, right?

You seem to think this proves we are idolaters based on what you think is going on. Many have explained otherwise -- but you can't seem to think we are "straight" with you. Why ?

I guess I just don't see that what you're saying makes it ok. It seems like spin.
Kind of like...let me try to think of an example...
Ok...I grew up as a JW. We did not celebrate Halloween. We visited a cousins house who were also JW's on Halloween and they had drawn faces on pumpkins (instead of carved them) and had candy everywhere, and even had costumes on like they had been celebrating Halloween. When asked, they said that technically they didn't carve the pumpkins or go trick or treating for the candy so its ok.

Well, I'm of the belief that you don't test God. You don't try to slide something in under His nose and say its ok.

And who was the genius who suggested they worship a golden calf when Moses was on that mountain? How many of them took a stand and said this isn't right and we're not going to do it?

Compare this to that. Jesus has been gone for 2000 years (roughly) and some members of His church are exhuming bodies and presenting them as "incorruptible", praying to spirits, honoring/venerating/worshipping icons, body parts and relics. AND, to top it off, we have a BOOK from God (Bible) that tells us it's wrong which the Israelites didn't have.

Now Jesus is literally on the verge of "coming down from the mountain" and this is what He'll see. He never told us to do that and even warned against it. Just how mad do you think He's going to be?

Is it me ?

No, please don't take any of this personally. It is solely the practices that I'm passionately debating. You are my sister in Christ. I am looking at this from the perspective of: WE are all God's children because WE believe in Jesus. SOME of us are being led astray down a path that has the appearance if not the practice of idolatry. Imagine us all out there as Israelites in that wilderness and someone has the audacity to suggest that we build a golden calf and worship it. Then, imagine your shock and surprise when everyone seems to go along with it without question. Then, imagine seeing all these people die because you didn't speak up and say..."uh, guys...this isn't right, here."

 

[Trento]

No, it's not the case....not trying to accuse.

I am having great difficulty reconciling this practice/these practices with the Word of God.

He was very clear about idolatry in all it's forms. So why would He then grant lesser god status to Mary, angels and spirits of the dead? Why would He then say it's ok to 'venerate' relics and bones? Why would He then say its ok to have amulets and altars and icons and statues?

God cannot lie nor does He change.

If we venerate to an image of God to glorify His presence, we thereby mimick the veneration of the temple (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30).

Just as "kisses" are willfully made holy (Romans 16:16) through our shared priesthood (1st Peter 2:9), likewise images lovingly made and acknowledged to be of God are also "set apart" and made holy by definition. And since God is omnipresent, He is thus also present in these holy images. Thus bowing towards a holy image mimicks the veneration of the temple, which itself epitomized God's presence and was also bowed towards (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30).




If I chooses to bow to a bishop of the Church, it is out of respect (Genesis 23:7, 1Kings 1:31, 1Tim 5:17) rather than for worship (Acts 10:25-26).

If I have or wear a crucifex, it is because "we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1Cor 1:23).


If we venerate an image of a saint, we show God's will to give "glory and honor for every one who does good" (Romans 2:10).

Even though relics of a saint may have miraculous power, such as the bones of Elisha (2Kings 13:20-21), we understand and profess that such power ultimately comes from God.

The apostles did not command religious images or objects to be gathered or venerated. However, they did teach "do not quench the spirit" (1Thessalonians 5:19) and then simply watched on as the saints by themselves discovered the piety of religious images or objects - such as the miracles in relics recorded here in Scripture:

Acts 19: ​

11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, ​

12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.​

Competent ministers permit or teach this spirit filled understanding, rather than demanding an undiscerning legalistic interpretation of Scripture to call down judgment upon Christians who venerate holy images (2nd Corinthians 3:6). Only if someone's heart is dangerously tempted with idolatry will a minister then discipline the "externals" (Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 19:10). And it is only when the glory of God is outright "exchanged" for images do these images finally become idols (Romans 1:23).​