Preserved Saints

[E.C.]

On this show I think all the corpses they investigated were in the Catholic church.

At any rate, they proved that those corpses had been embalmed with wax, but the Catholic church had told the faithful that they had not been preserved.

My question is, and I mean no offense by this, if the Catholic church was able to convince it's faithful that they did not embalm the bodies of it's saints couldn't the same be happening in the Orthodox church?

Also, like I have said in a previous post those corpses that indeed have not been embalmed were preserved by being interred in the right conditions so as to slow the decaying process. It isn't really because of any Divine Intervention. Sure, God could preserve bodies if He wanted, but what would be the purpose??? I just don't buy it.

If you are speaking of the Roman Catholic Church, please specify. Some of us when we see "the Catholic Church" think any of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches!


As to why our Father would preserve a holy person's body, we may not know, because really, who knows the inner workings of His way of thought? But we can make educated guesses.


The saints were spiritual people. By spiritual people, I mean that they actually not only listened to the Holy Spirit speaking to them, but also followed Him. Thus the Holy Spirit is a strong "voice" in the spiritual person's being. When we repose (die in the Western world) the soul lives on and typically, the body decomposes. However, the bodies of the saints have not. Why? We don't know. How so? God's work. Thus, those who have strong faith would be satisfied with this answer.

Sure, some like St. John Maximovitch may have reposed about forty years ago and are incorrupt, but there is a difference between incorrupt and dehydrated. Even so, the fact that he reposed forty years ago and his body still has skin and some sort of structure to it, speaks volumes in itself. When they exhumed him in the early 1990's, the official report from the exhuming stated that his skin was still white and that his face looked just as it did when he reposed.

That says a lot.

 

[leothelioness]

But we can make educated guesses.

What would be yours?

The saints were spiritual people. By spiritual people, I mean that they actually not only listened to the Holy Spirit speaking to them, but also followed Him.
Thus the Holy Spirit is a strong "voice" in the spiritual person's being.

That describes probably the vast majority of the Christian population -- most all of which were not canonised nor were Catholic or Orthodox. Would God preserve their bodies as well?

When we repose (die in the Western world) the soul lives on and typically, the body decomposes. However, the bodies of the saints have not.

Like I said above would God also preserve the bodies of those who were faithful saints yet not recognised as such???

Sure, some like St. John Maximovitch may have reposed about forty years ago and are incorrupt, but there is a difference between incorrupt and dehydrated. Even so, the fact that he reposed forty years ago and his body still has skin and some sort of structure to it, speaks volumes in itself. When they exhumed him in the early 1990's, the official report from the exhuming stated that his skin was still white and that his face looked just as it did when he reposed.

That says a lot.

Yeah, and the part where I said that certain conditions after interment have an effect on decay also says a lot.

 

[E.C.]

What would be yours?

Frankly, I haven't given the subject at hand much thought. Thus, no personal educated guess.

That describes probably the vast majority of the Christian population -- most all of which were not canonised nor were Catholic or Orthodox. Would God preserve their bodies as well?

On the "vast majority" part, not really. The Saints (note the big S) are the examples to the rest of us. The ones (outside of Christ) that we should emulate and imitate.

If God sees that the body of a non-RC or non-Orthodox should remain incorrupt, than that is His call. Not mine.

Like I said above would God also preserve the bodies of those who were faithful saints yet not recognised as such???

See right above this box.

Yeah, and the part where I said that certain conditions after interment have an affect on decay also says a lot.

hmm... I didn't see that. Although I did hear that St. John's body was under the altar of a church in California and the conditions of said area were very damp.

 

[leothelioness]

Frankly, I haven't given the subject at hand much thought. Thus, no personal educated guess.

On the "vast majority" part, not really.

Yes, really. Paul said that ALL who are in Christ are saints. All TRUE Christians are how you described.

The Saints (note the big S) are the examples to the rest of us. The ones (outside of Christ) that we should emulate and imitate.

I completely agree, but God also puts faithful people in our lives as an example. My mother, uncle, grandmother and great-grandmother would all be examples. Thus, saints as being an example can apply to the dead and undead, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.

One does not have to be canonised by the church to be an example. The Bible tells us that our parents are our first examples.

hmm... I didn't see that. Although I did hear that St. John's body was under the altar of a church in California and the conditions of said area were very damp.

St. John who? Not familiar with Catholic or Orthodox saints.

 

[QuantaCura]

First off, the use of wax was after the fact of discovering the incorruptibility. It is not denied that wax was often later used to touch up discoloring. There a book called "The Incorruptibles" sold in many Catholic bookstores, websites, and catalogs which discusses this regarding the saints it was done to (the primary focus is on the miracles). It wasn't a secret.

Anyway, has anyone ever seen an embalmed person dug up? Especially one given the techinques of say, 1200? Not a pretty sight...if anything is left at all--and yet, there are saints who are incorrupt from this period and even earlier. Similarly, saints like future saint Fr. Solanus Casey who were buried and whose caskets filled with water and stuff, have been still found incorruptible. So were body parts cut off from saints and thrown into rivers (like St. John Nepecume's tongue) or the bodies of martyrs and confessors hated by their enemies who's bodies could only be recovered after great lengths of time.

 

[jckstraw72]

the bodies are preserved bc salvation is for the body as much as it is for the soul. these holy men and women were so filled with God in their lifetimes that that presence of the Holy Spirit has preserved their bodies, pointing ahead to, and awaiting the bodily resurrection.

and the argument about right conditions doesnt apply either -- St. John Maximovitch may be from the 1900s, but what about the hand of St. John Chrysostom, from the 400s, or the hand of Mary Magdalene, which are both incorrupt?

 

[prodromos]

or the hand of Mary Magdalene, which are both incorrupt?

and still maintains body temperature!

 

[Axion]

On this show I think all the corpses they investigated were in the Catholic church.

At any rate, they proved that those corpses had been embalmed with wax, but the Catholic church had told the faithful that they had not been preserved.

My question is, and I mean no offense by this, if the Catholic church was able to convince it's faithful that they did not embalm the bodies of it's saints couldn't the same be happening in the Orthodox church?

Also, like I have said in a previous post those corpses that indeed have not been embalmed were preserved by being interred in the right conditions so as to slow the decaying process. It isn't really because of any Divine Intervention. Sure, God could preserve bodies if He wanted, but what would be the purpose??? I just don't buy it.

I don't know what TV shows you've been watching but..

A> Wax is NOT an embalming process. Even if you cover an ordinary body with wax six inches thick, it will STILL decay.

B> A microscopic layer of wax has sometimes been used for COSMETIC purposes where slight skin discolouration has been found. This would not itself preserve the face or body.

ST Bernadette's body was not embalmed at all and placed in a lead coffin in a damp cellar - normally very conducive to decay. yet the coffin was opened for the third time in 1928, 46 years after death, Dr Comte wrote..

"What struck me during this examination, of course, was the state of perfect preservation of the skeleton, the fibrous tissues of the muscles (still supple and firm), of the ligaments, and of the skin, and above all the totally unexpected state of the liver after 46 years. One would have thought that this organ, which is basically soft and inclined to crumble, would have decomposed very rapidly or would have hardened to a chalky consistency. Yet, when it was cut it was soft and almost normal in consistency. I pointed this out to those present, remarking that this did not seem to be a natural phenomenon."

It was at this time, nearly fifty years after death, that Bernadette's body was placed in its present glass coffin and the face given a thin layer of cosmetic wax make-up.

 

[Thekla]

On this show I think all the corpses they investigated were in the Catholic church.

At any rate, they proved that those corpses had been embalmed with wax, but the Catholic church had told the faithful that they had not been preserved.

My question is, and I mean no offense by this, if the Catholic church was able to convince it's faithful that they did not embalm the bodies of it's saints couldn't the same be happening in the Orthodox church?

Also, like I have said in a previous post those corpses that indeed have not been embalmed were preserved by being interred in the right conditions so as to slow the decaying process. It isn't really because of any Divine Intervention. Sure, God could preserve bodies if He wanted, but what would be the purpose??? I just don't buy it.

Embalming is not practiced with any of the EO faithful. The discovery of incorruption is often "accidental". Due to the lack of space in Greece, for example, bodies are interred until corruption can occur. After disinterrment, the bones are stored elsewhere (this happens in the monasteries too). In this way, incorruption is "accidentally" discovered.

God works as He will, and often "through matter". Incorruption is evidence of His continuing this, and of His promise (a foretaste if you will). Further, the Psalmist notes that when He takes His Spirit away, we return to dust. Incorruption is a sign of indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know that my explanations will satisfy, but I do hope they make sense

 

[Mary of Bethany]

My question is, and I mean no offense by this, if the Catholic church was able to convince it's faithful that they did not embalm the bodies of it's saints couldn't the same be happening in the Orthodox church?

No, because in the Orthodox Church, no one is supposed to be embalmed before burial. There's no difference between how any faithful Orthodox Christian is buried, from how monks or bishops or whoever else is buried.

Mary

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, really. Paul said that ALL who are in Christ are saints. All TRUE Christians are how you described.


I completely agree, but God also puts faithful people in our lives as an example. My mother, uncle, grandmother and great-grandmother would all be examples. Thus, saints as being an example can apply to the dead and undead, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.

One does not have to be canonised by the church to be an example. The Bible tells us that our parents are our first examples.

True, but since most Orthodox or other churches around the globe don't know my Uncle Joe, or your cousin Lisa, or my friend's dad, Bob, the Churches can't use them as global and historical examples for all the congregation to see their lives and follow them. I hope that makes sense.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I don't know what TV shows you've been watching but..

A> Wax is NOT an embalming process. Even if you cover an ordinary body with wax six inches thick, it will STILL decay.

B> A microscopic layer of wax has sometimes been used for COSMETIC purposes where slight skin discolouration has been found. This would not itself preserve the face or body.

ST Bernadette's body was not embalmed at all and placed in a lead coffin in a damp cellar - normally very conducive to decay. yet the coffin was opened for the third time in 1928, 46 years after death, Dr Comte wrote..

"What struck me during this examination, of course, was the state of perfect preservation of the skeleton, the fibrous tissues of the muscles (still supple and firm), of the ligaments, and of the skin, and above all the totally unexpected state of the liver after 46 years. One would have thought that this organ, which is basically soft and inclined to crumble, would have decomposed very rapidly or would have hardened to a chalky consistency. Yet, when it was cut it was soft and almost normal in consistency. I pointed this out to those present, remarking that this did not seem to be a natural phenomenon."

It was at this time, nearly fifty years after death, that Bernadette's body was placed in its present glass coffin and the face given a thin layer of cosmetic wax make-up.

No, you are wrong. Bernadette was buried with salt and with carbon. Both were failed attempts to someday dig up an "incorruptible body". She has more than just a microscopic layer of wax to cover up discoloration. They hired a company specializing in wax coverings (like Madame Troussaud's) to cover her up.
From http://mike.friese.com/pilgrimage/paris/bernaut.html
"The Sisters who had buried her thirty years earlier noted only that her hands had fallen slightly to the left. But the words of the surgeon and the doctor, who were under oath, speak for themselves:
"The coffin was opened in the presence of the Bishop of Nevers, the mayor of the town, his principal deputy, several canons and ourselves. We noticed no smell. The body was clothed in the habit of Bernadette's order. The habit was damp. Only the face, hands and forearms were uncovered.
The head was tilted to the left. The face was dull white. The skin clung to the muscles and the muscles adhered to the bones. The sockets of the eyes were covered by the eye-lids. The brows were flat on the skin and stuck to the arches above the eyes. The lashes of the right eyelid were stuck to the skin. The nose was dilated and shrunken. The mouth was open slightly and it could be seen that the teeth were still in place. The hands, which were crossed on her breast, were perfectly preserved, as were the nails. The hands still held a rusting rosary. The veins on the forearms stood out.
Like the hands, the feet were wizened and the toenails were still intact (one of them was torn off when the corpse was washed). When the habits had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limb.
It was found that the hair, which had been cut short, was stuck to the head and still attached to the skull -- that the ears were in a state of perfect preservation -- that the left side of the body was slightly higher than the right from the hip up.
The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. It sounded like cardboard when struck.
The left knee was not as large as the right. The ribs protruded as did the muscles in the limbs.
So rigid was the body that it could be rolled over and back for washing.
The lower parts of the body had turned slightly black. This seems to have been the result of the carbon of which quite large quantities were found in the coffin.
In witness of which we have duly drawn up this present statement in which all is truthfully recorded.
Nevers, September 22, 1909
Drs. Ch. David, A. Jourdan. "

This is all a bunch of hooey!!! There was carbon, zinc, crystals, and calcium salts put in the coffin with her for preservation. She is mummified. She has had a nose job and has wax masks covering her hands and face to keep up the APPEARANCE of incorruptibility. IT is a lie. This is not the handiwork of God but of liars.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Come on, people....

Check it out. Don't take this at face value. I was impressed when I first heard about this a couple of months ago. Then I learned that they have wax over their faces and hands. One was exhumed and had inexplicable amounts of salt and carbon in her coffin (as a preservative). They've done the same thing to that Russian leader...Lenin.

They use the same kind of masks as Madame Tussauds. It was popular in the middle ages and the RCC has continued to do so today to keep up only the APPEARANCE of incorruptability. Smoke and mirrors, folks...or in this case wax, carbon, salt or whatever else they can think of to perpetuate the illusion.

Good post!

Of course there is a scientific explanation for this, but many RCs, Greek Orthodox, etc. already have their opinions formed before looking at other explanations so of course they will say, "It's a miracle!" or "This prooves my faith!"

Lastly, I found an interesting article about this at Wikipedia.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Good post!

Of course there is a scientific explanation for this, but many RCs, Greek Orthodox, etc. already have their opinions formed before looking at other explanations so of course they will say, "It's a miracle!" or "This prooves my faith!"

Lastly, I found an interesting article about this at Wikipedia.

Yes, it'd be nice to say, "they're not fooling anyone" but undoubtedly they are.

 

[E.C.]

Yes, it'd be nice to say, "they're not fooling anyone" but undoubtedly they are.

Who is "they"?

 

[Epiphoskei]

Who is "they"?

The same people who identified the graves of sixteen of the Lord's twelve Apostles in Germany alone during the middle ages?

People presenting relics have a rather bad track record.

 

[E.C.]

People presenting relics have a rather bad track record.

People from where? Asylums? Prisons? Towns? Churches?

Europe? Antarctica? Bangladesh?

 

[Thekla]

Yes, it'd be nice to say, "they're not fooling anyone" but undoubtedly they are.

this sorta sounds like you mean "100%"; is this impression correct ?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

this sorta sounds like you mean "100%"; is this impression correct ?

There are people who are choosing to believe the lie which is that these corpses are not decaying, therefore "incorruptible". But they are decaying...in fact, they are in various stages of decay and some have been mummified by all kinds of compounds thrown into the casket in hopes that they can one day exhume a REAL "incorrupt", non-decaying body. Then they can present it to the world and say, "See, we truly are the only true religion, approved by God. One of our clergy's corpses is not rotting." And then people will follow off after them without batting an eyelash or questioning the background of it.

Now, all they can do is present corpses in various stages of decay or decorated with wax to present an illusion ....and people still run off after it without questioning the people behind the illusion. They've tried to cover their behinds by defining "incorruptible"...meaning it can be in various stages of decay and still be "incorruptible" (much like they did with various stages or forms of worship so that worship of spirits of the dead or their relics is not the same as worshipping God...it's all in the definition, you see.)

They have taken a scripture about Jesus and run wild with it in hopes of maintaining power over the masses.

 

[E.C.]

What about the bodies that are authentic?