Presbyterian/Reformed(non-baptist) Forum???

[DeaconDean]

But I'll tell you what.

Since I'm the bad guy here, I don't know my tail from a hole in the ground, and experience don't mean squat, I'll gracefully bow out of this and I sincerely hope, wish, and pray that your request is granted.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DD2008]

So basically, your telling me that your almost identical to Catholicism with a few minor variations?

In short, YES! We are Reformed Catholics.

Catholics believe in infant baptism. (Without the Reformed part of course)

They teach it saves. We teach it is a mark of the covenant and that it does not save.

Catholics believe in the literal presence of Christ in communion.

They have defined it extra-biblically. We have not. We simply go by the scriptures where Christ said "this is my body"

Catholics are creedal.

So are we.

In fact, so do a few others on this board.

But we're right and they're not. That's another reason we need our own board so we can discuss the truth in full view of others who can't debate against it.

I'm simply pointing out that you already have the biggest, or next to biggest area of all the Congregational areas. And now, you want another area??

We want a presbyterian area where we can discuss presbyterian issues with presbyterians who do not debate the basics of presbyterian doctrine. Also it would give us a chance to discuss issues with the liberal presbyterians and work towards solving our differences.

Geez, gimme a break.

You just don't want us to have the same freedoms you have. That is unfair Dean.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

But I'll tell you what.

Since I'm the bad guy here, I don't know my tail from a hole in the ground, and experience don't mean squat, I'll gracefully bow out of this and I sincerely hope, wish, and pray that your request is granted.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You have not been made the bad guy by any of us in this thread Dean. That's just for the record.
You talk about us having the largest forum on CF??? We don't care...it needs to be subdivided IMHO.
Hence my request here.


Isn't this a safe forum where us as members of CF can bring ideas, etc to the attention of CF STAFF without the fear of being insulted????


I don't even expect much of a result immediately if at all. I don't even expect a compromise but I do expect a thoughtful and honest response to our request without feeling like I'm getting talked down to, challenged at every comment, and insulted which is the case so far.


Again, thanks for listening.

EDIT: I posted this response in emotion and not wisdom...my answers to all questions stand...but I do not doubt that this forum is indeed safe to post concerns to the cf staff.

thanks.

 

[DD2008]

People ask for all kinds of stupid forums to be set up for all kinds of things.

We are a mainline protestant tradition and we don't have a forum.

Asking for a Presbyterian forum isn't like we're asking for a Allsup's Burrito Fan forum or something. Isn't there a fantasy game forum on CF? And a Sports forum and a forum for alcoholics?

Come on. What about the Presbyterians? We're only huge. That's all.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Since it seems that the big issue here is excluding Baptists as Brother Dean pointed out many times so far.....

Here is the last stanza of the Apostles Creed...there isn't a Baptist church around that would give credence to what I've highlighted in boldface type:

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Just another example of a difference, because Presbyterians/Reformed Faith Churches hold dear to this Creed.
If I'm wrong...then I'm wrong.



Look this isn't a matter of being exclusive here....we want a home forum for our denomination...it's not like we are some little backwoods, Ozark Mountain snake handlers....lol...we are a mainline denomination with differences from all others.

DD2008 said it best:

We want a presbyterian area where we can discuss presbyterian issues with presbyterians who do not debate the basics of presbyterian doctrine. Also it would give us a chance to discuss issues with the liberal presbyterians and work towards solving our differences.

Again, thanks for listening.

 

[AMR]

I honestly don't understand why there is so much debate about this. Having a Presbyterian forum/sub-forum is not an unusual request. The denomination is certainly large enough to warrant its own forum/sub-forum, just as other denominations are represented herein.

AMR

 

[Tonks]

oh boy...i'm probably stepping into a minefield here...so if i sound ignorant it is not meant to be mean etc.

i *think* that back in the day CF had a presby forum...i also think that for whatever reason it was closed. i'll have to dig through CF's dusty attic and see if i can glean any information which may take a while. my first guess is that it had something to do with some serious bloodletting between the pca folks and the pcusa folks. that is my initial gut reaction.

to be honest i'm about as far from reformed as one can get so some of the internal baptist / reformed / presby squabbles are a bit of a mystery to me. though those that self-identify as presbyterian (of all stripes) are about the 5th largest christian denomination in the US, it would seem.

with respect to icons / forums...i'm unsure where to go on that if only because i'm very loathe to create a whole bunch of presbyterian forums...in all likelihood there would be a main forum with sub-forums as necessary...sort of like the TCL forum, I guess. but that may be too far down the road at this point.

one of the things that that we look for is the size of CF population that a new forum would serve. i frankly, don't know, how many people on CF are actually presby...as it seems that they choose a variety of icons (mainly reformed these days, it seems).

at any rate...i'm not necessarily opposed at all i'm just trying to figure out how we got here and where to go from here...just all the inputs that go into the gonkinator before it spits out a decision, as it were.

can someone (nicely...without arguing with each other) let me know what the deal is with the baptist / presbyterian discussion that is occuring here? based on my knowledge the presbys have more distinctives that merely being some type of reformed believers, yes?

 

[DD2008]

oh boy...i'm probably stepping into a minefield here...so if i sound ignorant it is not meant to be mean etc.

i *think* that back in the day CF had a presby forum...i also think that for whatever reason it was closed. i'll have to dig through CF's dusty attic and see if i can glean any information which may take a while. my first guess is that it had something to do with some serious bloodletting between the pca folks and the pcusa folks. that is my initial gut reaction.

to be honest i'm about as far from reformed as one can get so some of the internal baptist / reformed / presby squabbles are a bit of a mystery to me. though those that self-identify as presbyterian (of all stripes) are about the 5th largest christian denomination in the US, it would seem.

with respect to icons / forums...i'm unsure where to go on that if only because i'm very loathe to create a whole bunch of presbyterian forums...in all likelihood there would be a main forum with sub-forums as necessary...sort of like the TCL forum, I guess. but that may be too far down the road at this point.

one of the things that that we look for is the size of CF population that a new forum would serve. i frankly, don't know, how many people on CF are actually presby...as it seems that they choose a variety of icons (mainly reformed these days, it seems).

at any rate...i'm not necessarily opposed at all i'm just trying to figure out how we got here and where to go from here...just all the inputs that go into the gonkinator before it spits out a decision, as it were.

can someone (nicely...without arguing with each other) let me know what the deal is with the baptist / presbyterian discussion that is occuring here? based on my knowledge the presbys have more distinctives that merely being some type of reformed believers, yes?

Do you guys plan on ever having new members post on CF? What if many are Presbyterians? What if we invited our friends from Church to join CF?

Why isn't there a Presbyterian forum we could point Presbyterians to that might want to join CF? HOw does Oriental Orthodox have a forum separate from Eastern Orthodox yet the entire Presbyterian population is simply mixed in at the bottom corner somewhere with a bunch of creedo-baptists, speaking of whom Do in fact have a safe zone to escape to if they desire?

 

[Tonks]

well...that didn't really answer any of my questions. i'm coming at this in good faith and i don't have all the answers. my main, concerns, frankly are:

1) why the presbyterian forum blew itself apart in the past

2) what this baptist / presbyterian kerfuffle is all about.

As previously indicated I'm trying to get smart on the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make the forum appear.

I noted that I'm not opposed just trying to figure out what is going on. So...people can be helpful or not, I guess.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

oh boy...i'm probably stepping into a minefield here...so if i sound ignorant it is not meant to be mean etc.

i *think* that back in the day CF had a presby forum...i also think that for whatever reason it was closed. i'll have to dig through CF's dusty attic and see if i can glean any information which may take a while. my first guess is that it had something to do with some serious bloodletting between the pca folks and the pcusa folks. that is my initial gut reaction.

to be honest i'm about as far from reformed as one can get so some of the internal baptist / reformed / presby squabbles are a bit of a mystery to me. though those that self-identify as presbyterian (of all stripes) are about the 5th largest christian denomination in the US, it would seem.

with respect to icons / forums...i'm unsure where to go on that if only because i'm very loathe to create a whole bunch of presbyterian forums...in all likelihood there would be a main forum with sub-forums as necessary...sort of like the TCL forum, I guess. but that may be too far down the road at this point.

one of the things that that we look for is the size of CF population that a new forum would serve. i frankly, don't know, how many people on CF are actually presby...as it seems that they choose a variety of icons (mainly reformed these days, it seems).

at any rate...i'm not necessarily opposed at all i'm just trying to figure out how we got here and where to go from here...just all the inputs that go into the gonkinator before it spits out a decision, as it were.

can someone (nicely...without arguing with each other) let me know what the deal is with the baptist / presbyterian discussion that is occuring here? based on my knowledge the presbys have more distinctives that merely being some type of reformed believers, yes?

I hear ya about the icons, etc.
I just started this because I believe that Prebyterians need a forum of our own.
I love posting in Semper Reformanda....but like DD2008 said...we don't have a save zone to post say bout...paedo(infant) baptism now, without a person who claims to be reformed, ie "reformed baptist" countering our point. IMHO there is not a baptist that can claim to be "reformed" at all.
Infant baptism is a trait of being reformed...it goes back to the reformers...remember...the protestant reformation, ala Luther, Calvin, etc...didn't want to rewrite the Catholic church, but to reform it's standards and doctrine.
Reformed Baptist is a misnomer IMHO(and other's opinions too)...Baptists never had anything to reform in the first place.
Presbyterians(and the associated reformed churches as I listed in the first page of this thread, which the majority had the word "presybyterian" in their titles) need our own forum here please.
I understand that Semper Reformanda pleases all Calvinist christians...and that's OK with me...but it's not what the title suggests...the forum is NOT reformed in essence.
If you google Reformed theology(google is by no means expert in this topic) but you will find no baptist doctrine involved in most of the initial links...that's because it's not reformed in the truest sense of the word.

Tonks, I am asking this sincerely without cause for trouble...I was a southern baptist...I am now a conservative Presbyterian in the PCA denomination. I have nothing, absolutely NOTHING against "reformed" baptists or other calvinists...but they are NOT presbyterian nor are they reformed.
Despite what others have stated in this thread...I don't want to "exclude" Baptists...that seems to be the only counterpoint in this entire thread acutally!...but I want for presbyterians...what lutherans, episcopalians, etc have here at CF...our own forum to talk about our own issues/concerns and ideas and fellowship without worrying about offending others because they see themselves as reformed...but they truely are not reformed. It's not my opinion...it's a fact.
Example: Presbyterians are not dispensational we endear covenant theology....
Presbyterians are not Rapture oriented....we don't like it nor care about that subject...it's not in our theology.
Presbyterians baptize infants....in a post earlier...we were wrongly compared to Roman Catholics in this sense....but we do baptise infants...a BIG thing in our denomination....Baptists dont and never will!
We all hold to at least the Apostle's Creed...in Semper Reformanda...we have tried to discuss the merits of this creed, yet it seems that other's have posted against it....in opinion and in protest...cause they are "reformed" baptist...to me that's unfair and not needed.
These are but a few examples of what I'm trying to confer....Presbyterians NEED our own forum.
I would suggest doing exactly what you all did with the Pentecostal/Spirit Filled forum way back when...split it.
Have a forum for all calvinists in faith groups...but have a specific Presbyterian/Reformed Churches(non baptist) Forum under Communities.

I've got more...but ponder this please...I'm not trying to be a trouble maker here Tonks.

Thankyou so much for your post here.

 

[Tonks]

Cool...thanks for the info. I'm not trying to start a war here over who can claim the mantle of reformed theology. i, too, understand the need for separation between debating factions at times and also know that SR is a place to hash out some, but not all things.

At any rate I've started a discussion thread in the advisory forum (with the UCC too) so hopefully we can hash this out. You know the pace of change on CF at times...but this is definitely now at least on my radar.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Tonks...that's all I asked for...thankyou so much.

 

[DD2008]

well...that didn't really answer any of my questions. i'm coming at this in good faith and i don't have all the answers. my main, concerns, frankly are:

1) why the presbyterian forum blew itself apart in the past

Who knows? I wasn't here in the past. I wouldn't know. However this is not the past but the present. If we had a forum set up exactly like the Lutheran forum where there is the main presbyterian forum and then the PC-USA/EPC and PCA/OPC sub forums that would work. You guys probably didn;t set it up right.

2) what this baptist / presbyterian kerfuffle is all about.

We agree on soteriology and evangelism which is great, but not on Baptism, the Eucharist, confessionalism, church government, or church order. We are liturgical they are low church.

As previously indicated I'm trying to get smart on the issues. I can't just snap my fingers and make the forum appear.

Understood. But we are a very large Christian tradition and we need our own forum. NOt just for today but for the future so we can grow. It will give us a place to discuss things that pertain to us instead of avoiding topics that the Baptists would certainly debate until the end of time.

Basically Presbyterians and Baptists are as similar as the Orthodox and the RCC yet different as well....you see? You guys have separate forums. Why can't we?

I noted that I'm not opposed just trying to figure out what is going on. So...people can be helpful or not, I guess.

I will help you in any way I can. What do you need?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Yeah I wasn't around before....I had no idea there actually was a presbyterian forum here at CF.

I like DD2008's idea about how to bascially set up a Presbyterian forum like the Lutherans have a forum or something very similar. DD2008 mentioned many good and MAJOR points of issue/differences between Presbyterians and Baptists. I don't know why there is attitude among the baptist crowd(if any) but it's not coming from Presbyterians...we are just requesting what we think is right and correct for us here at CF. This all started when we were hashing out our new SoF...and the definition of Reformed Theology came into play, some including myself said that Reformed Baptists are not in the traditional and real Reformed Faith, and never have been...it's impossible if you read Reformed Faith history. It went nuts from there unfortunately.
That's why I am asking for this...I see Semper Reformanda as a great and wonderful safe haven/forum for ALL calvinists...that is what it's become and is today. It's also a wonderful forum for learning about Reformed Theology and Calvinism in general...the subforums take care of that...and are rarely posted in actually. Semper Reformanda is no home forum for us presbyterians whatsoever.
I want to clarify one more time though here: when I say "presbyterians"...that includes every denomination listed in that list I posted on Page 1 of this thread...and notice 85% of them have the word presbyterian in their name. This does not and cannot include reformed baptist...for they are reformed literally in name only. I guess that sentiment has added to the hubbub with some baptists here at CF...but honestly it's irrelevant for our request. ALL Baptists have their own forum.









That's just my opinion.


thanks for listening.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

To address your concern, Tonks about interest in something such as this...I don't want to post a thread in Semper Reformanda asking if there is interest...it will turn into a flame fest by certain people I believe and I don't want a warning about flaming, etc. The hubbub all started with our baptist brothers and sisters when the new SoF for Semper was being asked about.
So what can WE do? I know this forum here isn't the most well treaded area for people...I know there are a LOT of presbyterian's on CF...how can CF handle this to spread the word about this idea?

Thanks as always for listening.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I agree, I think it will be a good idea.

Reformed Baptist have their baptist area we should have our own.

Not to mention I dont wanna deal with dispensationalist as a reformed person which is welcomed in semper for some reason.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I also understand the potential tensions that might occur from Liberal vs Conservative Presbyterians. I think the problem would solve itself if we just have a subforum in Semper. We already have many Presbys there and they will just visit their section when needed.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I see no need to relegate presbyterians to a mere sub forum.


Thanks for listening.

 

[AMR]

I agree, I think it will be a good idea.

Reformed Baptist have their baptist area we should have our own.

Not to mention I dont wanna deal with dispensationalist as a reformed person which is welcomed in semper for some reason.

I also understand the potential tensions that might occur from Liberal vs Conservative Presbyterians. I think the problem would solve itself if we just have a subforum in Semper. We already have many Presbys there and they will just visit their section when needed.

I agree with RC.

AMR

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I agree with RC.

AMR

You agree that a sub forum will be sufficient?
Why? Tradition?
I see Semper Reformanda as of right now a totally mixed up forum..it's not what it advertises to be...at all.
Semper Reformanda...if we go with a subforum for presbyterians...needs an entire revamp. Which to me isn't the point.