Prejudice against atheists needs to end.

[Paladin Dave]

I realize I post in here at my own peril, but...

My GOSH! Its getting to the point where neither side is helping themselves that much at all!

Most frequently posting Christians on here: "Atheists need to be quiet, because nobody cares what they think, and they're rude."

MFP Atheists on here: "Christians need to be quiet, because they're mean and discriminatory and everyone knows God doesn't exist."

These quotes are dismantled segments and extrapolated simplifications and reconstructions of what the Davist Party thinks to be a somewhat encompassing representation of core beliefs for the more common/outspoken offensive Atheists and Christians in this thread, used to make a point against the offensive dialog in this discussion. Any direct quote of previous posts is unintentional and purely coincidental.

But seriously, for crying out loud, all I'm getting out of this thread is that neither one of you guys that are arguing can stand the other side, and you think the people on the other side who feel this way about you are "annoying" "unenlightened" or whatever lovely little adjective is customary and somehow ok for your side but not the other to use!


But so that I don't have a 100% accusatory post, here's my stance on this matter.

Do I feel a little bit edgy about Atheists? Only for a moment. I worry they might think I'm stupid for believing in a God, but then I realize 1. I'm a far more critical thinker than they'd like to assume, 2. they say there's evidence against God, but never ever seem to be able to produce anything that isn't horribly disputed and seemingly weak/incomplete/an unproven theory in and of itself and little more, and 3. The only Atheists who ever do that to me are on the internet, and its only when people try to debate this stuff; so why worry?

Look. If there were decisive, undeniable proof that God didn't exist, I'd be an Atheist right now. If there was undeniable proof that could just be copied and pasted or shown in a video clip that God DOES exist, there'd be no atheists and no rival religions to Christianity/whatever religion was proven. But sadly, there's not, and we all need to realize that we and our intellectual/spiritual peers are NOT the only smart or moral people in the world. There are awesome/smart people in both religions(or whatever word you'd like to use to describe religion. Although, I'm told that according to the original meaning of the word, religion means "choice" when it comes to your spiritual life, and as they say in a song who's name and writer escape me, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"), just as there are stupid/depraved people in both religions. What can we do about it? Stop bickering like school kids and be good examples.

I live life in an attempt to be moral and good because I enjoy it. Add a little of what I believe to be divine assistance and inspiration, and I'm dedicated to the ideals of service, hospitality, mercy, morality, etc. If you disproved God's existence, I'd probably be very very upset for a while, but once I got over it I'd probably not change anything. ... Except my girlfriend and I might behave a bit differently. MAYBE.

So yes, not all Christians do what they do out of fear of the beyond. I personally don't think about Hell that much, because I've not been worried about it for a long time. I worry for my non-christian peers, but I know that this is America, and they hear the message all the time. MY most effective method of evangelism is talking less, and listening/acting more, and in ways that would please/set a good example of my God. I hold to Saint Francis' proverb, "Teach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words too."(might be paraphrasing slightly)

So yes. Atheists, I'm sorry for how my Christian brothers and sisters treat some of you. Not all of it is unprovoked, but most Atheists really don't deserve ill will at all. Christians, lets share the love. Christ DID say that anything done without love is as useless(and annoying) as the repetitive banging of a gong. No matter how lovingly we say it, "Yer goin' ta haaaaiiil" isn't going to convert people. Of all the conversion stories I've heard from friends and acquaintances, they were led to Christianity by a Christian(s) who showed them love, acceptance, and the kind of joy and peace only the Holy Spirit can bring, and they WANTED that kind of life. They wanted to have that good a heart, and that calm and joyful a spirit.

If I offended anyone... sorry, but its also very likely that you've already offended someone in this thread, so you have my apology, though it's not the strongest one I've ever given. If this offended you and you did none of the things I've spoken against: Easy, I'm not in here to tick people off. I just want everyone to see how ridiculous some of this behavior is. If I'm guilty of the same stuff, point it out and I'll humbly admit and apologize. However, I saw some people take things WAY too personally early on, or extrapolate way too much from a statement, so please make sure you're not doing that too. I only have the best intentions, really.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't hate atheists. I just think that they are highly annoying people who should learn to keep their mouths shut.

Oh, that knife so cuts both ways!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I post here to tell them that they're whiners, just on the off chance that maybe it'll convince them to stop whining. But if you haven't seen any atheist whining, then you might not have spent enough time on GA. There are generally multiple threads with "daily senseless arguments" against the existence of God.

I certainly haven't seen much atheist whining. The principle whining I see seems to be coming to you with the obviously huge chip you have on your shoulder about atheists.

 

[glo1]

I fear I cannot answer this due to forum rules.

Then PM me. I would like to know.

glo

 

[katautumn]

I'm not defending it. I am simply telling you why it is there. Nobody likes to be told they are stupid. When someone makes it a point to deliberately tell the majority that they are stupid and backwards it should come as no surprise that other people don't like them

So it's better to tell the minority that they're evil and deserve to burn in hell for all eternity?

Well, we can't do that because we are are told to, "make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you."
The New Jerusalem Bible , Mt 28:18-20 (New York: Doubleday, 1985).

So we will continue preaching the gospel and you can continue telling us how intellectually superior you are.

How convenient. We, as Atheists (and I would assume Agonstics as well), are told to "keep our mouths shut" so that we aren't hated, but Christians seem to have all the luck:

A) If you speak out and are hated, you dance a little jig and claim you're doing something right because "Jesus said true Christians would be hated and persecuted".

B) We need to shut up because we have no reason to speak, but Christians are allowed to slam their opinions in our faces because the Bible tells you to.

Sorry, but both Secondulus and Arunma are not following Christ's most important command - love your neighbor as yourself. I think that should supercede your command to tell us we're evil and will burn in hell.

 

[Ramona]

How convenient. We, as Atheists (and I would assume Agonstics as well), are told to "keep our mouths shut" so that we aren't hated, but Christians seem to have all the luck:

A) If you speak out and are hated, you dance a little jig and claim you're doing something right because "Jesus said true Christians would be hated and persecuted".

B) We need to shut up because we have no reason to speak, but Christians are allowed to slam their opinions in our faces because the Bible tells you to.

Sorry, but both Secondulus and Arunma are not following Christ's most important command - love your neighbor as yourself. I think that should supercede your command to tell us we're evil and will burn in hell.

Quoted for truth and bolded for emphasis.

 

[arunma]

Sorry, but both Secondulus and Arunma are not following Christ's most important command - love your neighbor as yourself. I think that should supercede your command to tell us we're evil and will burn in hell.

You aren't following Christ's command to love the Lord, which requires believing that he exists. Even if your strange and highly selective interpretation of the Bible were correct, then you should worry about yourself before you presume to rebuke others.

 

[arunma]

Quoted for truth and bolded for emphasis.

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why Jesus told others that they were going to hell? A lot of unbelievers usually like to quote the parts of the Bible which say that we should love others. Of course they are required to take these passages out of context, because if they didn't, then it would be obvious that the Bible also requires us to tell non-Christians that they are going to hell.

What we have here is a redefinition of the term "love," to mean, "don't tell me what I don't want to hear." Sorry, but while the Bible absolutely does command Christians to love others, it also says that all non-Christians without exception are going to hell.

 

[.Sabre.]

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why Jesus told others that they were going to hell? A lot of unbelievers usually like to quote the parts of the Bible which say that we should love others. Of course they are required to take these passages out of context, because if they didn't, then it would be obvious that the Bible also requires us to tell non-Christians that they are going to hell.

What we have here is a redefinition of the term "love," to mean, "don't tell me what I don't want to hear." Sorry, but while the Bible absolutely does command Christians to love others, it also says that all non-Christians without exception are going to hell.

You can believe what you want, but please do not go around condemning others. It's not going to do anybody any good.

 

[Ramona]

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why Jesus told others that they were going to hell?

Why would I be able to do that? I don't know why he'd say that, and neither does anyone else. Did you really want an answer to that, or are you just saying that to be insulting?

A lot of unbelievers usually like to quote the parts of the Bible which say that we should love others. Of course they are required to take these passages out of context, because if they didn't, then it would be obvious that the Bible also requires us to tell non-Christians that they are going to hell.

I don't see how that helps your case. Nobody can follow the Bible exactly. There are too many contradictions. I see verses that back you when you tell us we're going to hell. I also saw verses that backed me (when I was a Christian) when I argued that nobody went to hell. I don't think there's any such thing as "in context" when verses are pulled from the Bible. The only time it's ever totally in context is when one reads the entire Gospel. And even then, it was always a mystery to me.

What we have here is a redefinition of the term "love," to mean, "don't tell me what I don't want to hear." Sorry, but while the Bible absolutely does command Christians to love others, it also says that all non-Christians without exception are going to hell.

I don't really mind that you think I'm going to hell. I know that you do that out of your G-d's definition of love, and I know that you mean well. It's when you broadbrush atheists as "obnoxious" and "so dumb" and saying that we need to shut up, you tend to lose some of that love credibility.

It's really nothing personal, but I don't think that flinging such broad insults around is a valid form of debate. And I feel exactly the same way about atheists doing it to Christians.

 

[arunma]

Why would I be able to do that? I don't know why he'd say that, and neither does anyone else. Did you really want an answer to that, or are you just saying that to be insulting?

No, I am not trying to be insulting, nor am I asking an arcane, hypothetical question. This is important, because eternity is at stake here. If you (rightly) put so much stock in what Jesus says, then what do you make of his teaching that unbelievers will go to hell?

I don't see how that helps your case. Nobody can follow the Bible exactly. There are too many contradictions.

For whatever reason, evangelical Christians don't see any of the contradictions that you do. But if there are contradictions, then by what measuring stick do you decide what teachings you will obey (and use to rebuke others), and what teachings you choose to disregard? Is you maxim along the lines of "whatever portions of the Bible will keep Christians off my case are true?"

I don't really mind that you think I'm going to hell. I know that you do that out of your G-d's definition of love, and I know that you mean well. It's when you broadbrush atheists as "obnoxious" and "so dumb" and saying that we need to shut up, you tend to lose some of that love credibility.

I don't recall saying that atheists are dumb, but I did say that the evangelical atheists on this forum are annoying. And I think I was fairly clear that I am only addressing the atheists who actively express their beliefs. After taking even a cursory look at GA, can you really disagree with me?

 

[Ramona]

No, I am not trying to be insulting, nor am I asking an arcane, hypothetical question. This is important, because eternity is at stake here. If you (rightly) put so much stock in what Jesus says, then what do you make of his teaching that unbelievers will go to hell?

I don't put too much stock in what Jesus said, actually. I think he was a very good man, if he actually existed, but the higher power I believe in is not a deity, so I don't see why I should believe that he was the son of G-d. I don't think that Christians are dumb for believing in him, and I don't like theists any less for being, well, theists. There are nontheists whom I wouldn't trust not to spit in my coffee if I wasn't looking, and there are theists whom I would trust with my life. I don't think that one is a better or more moral person for believing in a G-d, multiple G-ds, or no G-ds. I've always been adamant that all humans have equal inherent value.

For whatever reason, evangelical Christians don't see any of the contradictions that you do.

Oh, I know many that did but would not admit it to themselves until after they deconverted. But I digress.

But if there are contradictions, then by what measuring stick do you decide what teachings you will obey (and use to rebuke others), and what teachings you choose to disregard? Is you maxim along the lines of "whatever portions of the Bible will keep Christians off my case are true?"

I don't rebuke people based on the Bible, therefore people who try to tell me that I must do X or can't do Y because the Bible commands it from me, well, yeah, sometimes I resent it. I don't concern myself with the Bible, and I don't know which, if any, parts of it are true. I'd just like to live my life and let them live theirs. Honestly I don't want much else, I'd just like to be left alone. Religious right-wingers have caused me and my loved ones a lot of pain in real life.

I don't recall saying that atheists are dumb, but I did say that the evangelical atheists on this forum are annoying. And I think I was fairly clear that I am only addressing the atheists who actively express their beliefs. After taking even a cursory look at GA, can you really disagree with me?

You said atheists were dumb in that other atheist thread in NCR, but let's not worry about that right now. Yeah, to be honest, religious AND secular evangelicals can get really annoying. However, I support the rights of people of all religions (or lack thereof) to express their views. And while GA does give me a headache if I post there for too long, I am quite fond of a lot of the atheists there.

Thanks for being so respectful in your response.

 

[arunma]

I don't rebuke people based on the Bible, therefore people who try to tell me that I must do X or can't do Y because the Bible commands it from me, well, yeah, sometimes I resent it. I don't concern myself with the Bible, and I don't know which, if any, parts of it are true. I'd just like to live my life and let them live theirs. Honestly I don't want much else, I'd just like to be left alone. Religious right-wingers have caused me and my loved ones a lot of pain in real life.

If you don't rebuke anyone based on the Bible, then may I ask why you very specifically expressed support for the following statement?

Sorry, but both Secondulus and Arunma are not following Christ's most important command - love your neighbor as yourself. I think that should supercede your command to tell us we're evil and will burn in hell.

You said atheists were dumb in that other atheist thread in NCR, but let's not worry about that right now. Yeah, to be honest, religious AND secular evangelicals can get really annoying. However, I support the rights of people of all religions (or lack thereof) to express their views. And while GA does give me a headache if I post there for too long, I am quite fond of a lot of the atheists there.

While I don't object to you raising issues from other threads, it would be helpful if you could reference them more directly. In any case, I didn't say that atheists are dumb. What I said is that non-scientist atheists don't have any business having opinions on science when they can't even tell the difference between a Hall probe and a corkscrew (to use my earlier words).

Thanks for being so respectful in your response.

No problem. I hope we can have a healthy discussion on this, because it's an important issue.

 

[Ramona]

If you don't rebuke anyone based on the Bible, then may I ask why you very specifically expressed support for the following statement?

No, I personally do not rebuke anyone based on the Bible, but I thought that what you were saying was rather harsh and unloving of your nontheist neighbors. However, you've explained yourself, and I'm not so much inclined to that part, but I do believe that the above portion of her post was spot-on.

While I don't object to you raising issues from other threads, it would be helpful if you could reference them more directly. In any case, I didn't say that atheists are dumb. What I said is that non-scientist atheists don't have any business having opinions on science when they can't even tell the difference between a Hall probe and a corkscrew (to use my earlier words).

I checked the other thread again, and it looks like I hadn't used my context clues there. I still think that what you said was pretty unkind. I'm a nontheist, and I'm not a physical scientist. I've always been more into social science, though social justice is "my area" of expertise, if you will. I have no idea about physical science, therefore I stay out of those types of debates. I don't know why you're generalising, or honestly even what you're really trying to say.

No problem. I hope we can have a healthy discussion on this, because it's an important issue.

Indeed we can, and if you so desire, we will.

 

[Snowbunny]

hola mumbai

i do not mean to embarass you or put you on the spot but i wish to make two observations... the first is that you are not a person, you are an dynamic force. people are usually stable, consistent and content or confused by their discontent. but you are like a hurricane, the polar opposite of stability... and i think like a hurricane you gain strenth from your unstationary nature. you do not just explore an idea, you hurl yourself at it with furious intensity until you have beheld, touched, understood and consumed the thing you have hurled yourself at.

the second observation i wanted to make is that you put too much stock in the actions and reactions of other people. i think you see goodness and cling to it, and you see badness and are repelled by it. that is why i think you were drawn to christianity and were pushed away from it. that is wonderful and speaks miles about you... but it is not right. you should believe in christianity and follow Christ because you believe in Him... if you are not drawn to Him then you should not.

i think your biggest weakness comes from your greatest strengths... you do not understand people... and you do not understand why they are not like you. people can be disappointing... they often fall short of what they want to be, or proclaim themselves to be. they are capable of doing incredibly good things, but in the same breath they are capable of doing bad things... what is worse, they are capable of *saying* great things, but doing bad things.

that is not the essense of theism... theism does have a contingent which is about the relationship between believing people... but it is first and foremost a relationship between you (a person) and God (a diety).

i say these things because there is *no* reason for a person like you to be confused about God or angry at Him. you are a lucky person, that spark of demanding unencumbered goodness from yourself and other people is the mark of godliness. if anybody should believe in God it is a person like you... looking for perfection of character, and perfect love and infinite forgiveness.

you are disappointed in religion because you see that people are unable to be these things... but God is these things... i think that is also why you are dynamic and restless, you are looking for God but you are only seeing people, and this makes you confused and disheartened. stop looking for people.

hopefully you will know this

que Dios te bendiga

 

[katautumn]

You aren't following Christ's command to love the Lord, which requires believing that he exists. Even if your strange and highly selective interpretation of the Bible were correct, then you should worry about yourself before you presume to rebuke others.

So, in essence, what you are telling me is that you have the authority to rebuke others, but I do not? I rebuke animosity and mean-spirited discourse which is what I have witnessed in this thread. You came straight out the gate saying it's no wonder Atheists are hated and distrusted because we're whiners. Am I denying that there are Atheists who whine? Of course not. I am not ignorant to those who are annoyingly Atheist. The only difference is they are smaller in number and pose a significantly smaller threat than whiney and annoying Christians. Surely you're not denying that among your own people that there are whiney and annoying Christians as well.

I don't recall saying that atheists are dumb, but I did say that the evangelical atheists on this forum are annoying. And I think I was fairly clear that I am only addressing the atheists who actively express their beliefs. After taking even a cursory look at GA, can you really disagree with me?

I have seen comments in GA and E&M from Atheists that I thought were a bit offensive; however, they don't represent the majority. Second, am I assuming correctly when I say you would claim any Atheist openly denying the existence of God and asking for Christians to help them understand this belief as "evangelical Atheism". Lastly, why is it wrong for anyone outside of Christianity to openly express their beliefs (or lack thereof) but you feel completely justified in pushing your beliefs on us?

 

[peter22]

Atheism isn't a religion. Just like being apolitical isn't a political belief. It's defined by its NON-BELIEF. Jeez, that's not hard to work out.

However, there are lots of strong atheists (who are pushed by strong Christians) who come across as crusader-y which whatever you think of it, still isn't a religion.

It's like saying, "Apples are vegetables!"

 

[belladom]

Go back to what I first wrote - "some of you spend". I wasn't speaking of you personally.

Stereotyping is a fact of human existence. If you can't realize that then you will have a hard life.

Discrimination, on the other hand is against the law. But that's not what we a were talking about, is it?

If it is, then post some evidence.

Wow. It seems that you believe that stereotyping is a fact of existence, and it doesn't seem to make you very happy. If you are a christian (I don't know if you are) then you know how important it is to purify one's beliefs. I don't think that stereotyping is a fact of christian human existance nor do I think that not realizing this supposed reality will bring on hardship. I think that you believe in something that is causing you suffering.
As for evidence... what does that have to do with faith?

 

[belladom]

And you know what's the ironic thing? Most of the most intellectual people in the planet are atheists. Were you to take the National Academy of Science and the Royal Society and combine them , and then do a poll on how many are atheist, you'll get about 76% atheist and only about 8% theists. what's left is divided into agnostics and deists.

These does not surprise me at all taking in consideration that most atheist are atheist because, well, we actually think. (sorry for saying it but I must be honest)

What does intelligence have to do with spirituality (which I think is the subject of this server) Is this the new god? If this "intelligence" is your god then could you explain to me some of its precepts so that I may learn.

 

[belladom]

Now as to the issue of how individuals act on their opinions, "Christianist" (by which you probably mean Christians) are well within...

Why do you even point out the typo? I really don't understand it, it seems like arrogance, but I'm not sure.

It's fairly common for atheists to initiate lawsuits to ban school prayers, public religious displays, and various other such things.

I don't know where you're from but here in the US (Minnesota) this isn't common at all. I don't appreciate the lies, but if it's the truth then I'd like an explanation.