Predetermined Salvation

[dcyates]

God knowing what we will do does not necessarily equate to him taking away our free will to choose ....

ex....

You give your child a choice and you know what your child will choose but at the same time it is still the child that is making the choice. Now what if the child chooses something other than what is what would be what you would want for them, and you have the power to change that choice, then you change that choice for them that is taking away their free will..... But if you still allow them to make the wrong choice knowing beforehand that they will make the choice and do nothing to stop such choice and then allow them later to choose to change that choice then you are allowing them an amount of free will because it is of their own choosing and not your own ....

God is desirous of all of His children to be Saved not some but it is our own choosing of we choose not to accept the gift..... He will not interfere in that ....

God does not Author Evil but He does allow it to exist ....For predetermination in the mannerism of which is being stated here to really exist that means that God is unkind and Unloving and that the Bible is not Inspired and that Christ did not come as a Sacrifice for all of Mankind

I fully agree with everything you've stated here, debiwebi, except that God knows absolutely what we will do before we do it. Because if he does, whether we're aware of it or not, we cannot do anything other than that which he foreknew, otherwise he will not have known absolutely what we will do prior to our doing it.

Either God has absolute foreknowledge and we do not have real free-will. Or we have real free-will and God does not have absolute foreknowledge. The ultimate implication is that if we do not possess real free-will, then it really doesn't seem fair that we be held responsible for our actions, since we could not have acted otherwise anyway.

 

[Debi1967]

I fully agree with everything you've stated here, debiwebi, except that God knows absolutely what we will do before we do it. Because if he does, whether we're aware of it or not, we cannot do anything other than that which he foreknew, otherwise he will not have known absolutely what we will do prior to our doing it.

Just because one has foreknowledge does not mean that He will intercede... this is the difference.... May I was not clear enough before because that was the point that I was trying to get across to begin with.

Just because one has the foreknowledge of what someone is going to do or not going to do does not mean that they necessarily have to interfere ..... and it certainly does not mean that they predetermined it that way it simply means that they have the knowledge of what is to come.... of the decision and then they will not interfere with that decision .... thereby leaving that decision to the free will of another ...

 

[NPH]

I fully agree with everything you've stated here, debiwebi, except that God knows absolutely what we will do before we do it. Because if he does, whether we're aware of it or not, we cannot do anything other than that which he foreknew, otherwise he will not have known absolutely what we will do prior to our doing it.

Either God has absolute foreknowledge and we do not have real free-will. Or we have real free-will and God does not have absolute foreknowledge. The ultimate implication is that if we do not possess real free-will, then it really doesn't seem fair that we be held responsible for our actions, since we could not have acted otherwise anyway.

Hi there dcyates

Here's something that might help you, it certainly helped me understand this better. Mind, this statement is wholly my own and not necessarily the teaching of the Catholic Church.

There is no such thing as 'foreknowledge'

I know, sounds weird at first but think it through. So often when we speak of God we talk about his omniscience and apply that through the concept of 'foreknowledge'. The idea being that God knows what we will do before we do it.

Except, we're forgetting another aspect of God ... his omnipresence. Omnipresence means that He is everywhere at everytime. In this very moment that I am typing this He is also speaking to Moses on the mountain. While you are reading this He is speaking with Adam in the garden. All of it, everywhere and at every moment in time is all happening at the same time for God.

You see, it's not that He is 'foreknowing' anything but rather that He is knowing everything all at once. If He said to Moses that the Christian Forums poster known as VNVnation will be saved, it's not that He predestined it or foreknew it but instead it's that He is there at that moment I die while at the same time speaking to Moses

I hope you see what i'm saying

 

[dcyates]

Just because one has foreknowledge does not mean that He will intercede... this is the difference.... May I was not clear enough before because that was the point that I was trying to get across to begin with.

Just because one has the foreknowledge of what someone is going to do or not going to do does not mean that they necessarily have to interfere ..... and it certainly does not mean that they predetermined it that way it simply means that they have the knowledge of what is to come.... of the decision and then they will not interfere with that decision .... thereby leaving that decision to the free will of another ...

I honestly do not mean to seem argumentative, debiwebi, but I didn't mention anything about God either interceding or interfering because of his ostensible foreknowledge.

I'll try to illustrate what I'm attempting to explain. Say God knows ahead of time that I'm going to drink a glass of water that is sitting in front of me, and that he further knows ahead of time that I'm going to accidentally spill most of it on my lap. Whether my perceived free-will is actual or not, I cannot do anything else but drink that glass of water sitting in front me and will 'accidentally' spill most of it on my lap. I cannot do otherwise--either deliberately or not--because that would mean that God does not have foreknowledge of those events. This is why I asseverated that either God has absolute foreknowledge and we don't have real free-will, or we have real free-will and God does not have absolute foreknowledge.

And I'm purposely using the term 'absolute' foreknowledge, because we all have a certain degree of foreknowledge, but it cannot be absolute. Based on my own personal experiences, I can reasonably predetermine some events before they happen. For instance, I know to a certain degree that if I throw a baseball straight up into the air while standing in the middle of a baseball diamond, it is most likely going to land on the ground somewhere within that baseball diamondn within at least a few seconds. But I cannot know any of that with absolute certainty. Perhaps a strong gust of wind will suddenly manifest itself and carry my baseball aloft for more than a few seconds, and causes it to land far outside my baseball diamond. Or perhaps there was somebody in one of the dugouts who I hadn't noticed, who quickly runs out, catches my baseball, and who then runs off with it, thus keeping it from landing on the ground at all. Now I fully acknowledge that these are contingencies that God, due to his omnipresence, would be able to foresee far better than I. But nevertheless, if God possesses absolute foreknowledge of my throwing this baseball, and of this baseball thief catching it and running away with it, it is a philosophical impossibility that I would do anything else but throw the baseball, and that this baseball thief would do anything else but catch my baseball and then run off with it. Because the result is, if either of us chose not to do these things, then God did not have absolute foreknowledge of these events.

See what I mean? I'm not at all claiming that God interferes in any way so that events conform to his alleged foreknowledge of them. I'm saying that if God does possess absolute foreknowledge, then events cannot turn out differently than the way in which God foreknew them.

 

[dcyates]

Hi there dcyates

Here's something that might help you, it certainly helped me understand this better. Mind, this statement is wholly my own and not necessarily the teaching of the Catholic Church.

There is no such thing as 'foreknowledge'

I know, sounds weird at first but think it through. So often when we speak of God we talk about his omniscience and apply that through the concept of 'foreknowledge'. The idea being that God knows what we will do before we do it.

Except, we're forgetting another aspect of God ... his omnipresence. Omnipresence means that He is everywhere at everytime. In this very moment that I am typing this He is also speaking to Moses on the mountain. While you are reading this He is speaking with Adam in the garden. All of it, everywhere and at every moment in time is all happening at the same time for God.

You see, it's not that He is 'foreknowing' anything but rather that He is knowing everything all at once. If He said to Moses that the Christian Forums poster known as VNVnation will be saved, it's not that He predestined it or foreknew it but instead it's that He is there at that moment I die while at the same time speaking to Moses

I hope you see what i'm saying

I do indeed see what you're saying, VNVnation, and it all makes perfect internal sense. However, the manner in which you are perceiving time, while certainly popular, is in actuality not biblical. (But please, I sincerely mean no insult.) You--and many others--are looking at time in the exact same way that virtually every culture throughout the ancient world conceived of it, including the ancient Greeks, from whom we have subsequently adopted it. All these people saw time as being essentially cyclical in nature. What goes around, quite literally, comes around. Think of history therefore as a big, round wall. Within this system, if one could position themselves in the middle of it, then they could conceivably experience all of it, all at once. It is here where we perceive God.

But the ancient Hebrews did not see time as cyclical in nature, but instead as linear. It had a definite beginning, from which it unfolded in a linear manner, each moment happening never to be repeated again, and moved toward a definite end. Genesis, with its 'In the beginning...', to Revelation, explicating the End of the Age. The ancient Hebrews were thus the first people to really take history seriously, because what was done within it would have actual consequences. To the other peoples of the ancient world, it didn't really matter what was done, because it was all going to irrevocably happen again. Thomas Cahill (the author of How the Irish Saved Civilization), in his book The Gifts of the Jews, goes so far as to call this 'the only truly new idea' in history. Here we should imagine time, not as a big, circular wall, but rather as a straight wall still under construction, because we haven't reached the end of history yet. The result is that, even if one could position themselves so as to perceive all of it, they still wouldn't see the future because it, in effect, hasn't been constructed yet; it's still being added to, brick by brick, as it were, moment by moment, hour by hour, day by day.

This does not deny God's omniscience. He still knows all there is to know. (Just as admitting God cannot create a rock so large and heavy even he couldn't lift it does not deny his omnipotence.) And neither does it deny predictive prophecy. God still possesses a great deal of power to bring about all that he wishes to bring about. For example, you could predict that you're going to eat an apple tomorrow. Barring a terrible accident, of course, you will very likely possess the ability to bring that prediction to fruition. Although, I hardly need mention that God obviously possesses this ability to a far greater extent than any of us.

 

[NPH]

I do indeed see what you're saying, VNVnation, and it all makes perfect internal sense. However, the manner in which you are perceiving time, while certainly popular, is in actuality not biblical. (But please, I sincerely mean no insult.) You--and many others--are looking at time in the exact same way that virtually every culture throughout the ancient world conceived of it, including the ancient Greeks, from whom we have subsequently adopted it. All these people saw time as being essentially cyclical in nature. What goes around, quite literally, comes around. Think of history therefore as a big, round wall. Within this system, if one could position themselves in the middle of it, then they could conceivably experience all of it, all at once. It is here where we perceive God.

But the ancient Hebrews did not see time as cyclical in nature, but instead as linear. It had a definite beginning, from which it unfolded in a linear manner, each moment happening never to be repeated again, and moved toward a definite end. Genesis, with its 'In the beginning...', to Revelation, explicating the End of the Age. The ancient Hebrews were thus the first people to really take history seriously, because what was done within it would have actual consequences. To the other peoples of the ancient world, it didn't really matter what was done, because it was all going to irrevocably happen again. Thomas Cahill (the author of How the Irish Saved Civilization), in his book The Gifts of the Jews, goes so far as to call this 'the only truly new idea' in history. Here we should imagine time, not as a big, circular wall, but rather as a straight wall still under construction, because we haven't reached the end of history yet. The result is that, even if one could position themselves so as to perceive all of it, they still wouldn't see the future because it, in effect, hasn't been constructed yet; it's still being added to, brick by brick, as it were, moment by moment, hour by hour, day by day.

This does not deny God's omniscience. He still knows all there is to know. (Just as admitting God cannot create a rock so large and heavy even he couldn't lift it does not deny his omnipotence.) And neither does it deny predictive prophecy. God still possesses a great deal of power to bring about all that he wishes to bring about. For example, you could predict that you're going to eat an apple tomorrow. Barring a terrible accident, of course, you will very likely possess the ability to bring that prediction to fruition. Although, I hardly need mention that God obviously possesses this ability to a far greater extent than any of us.

Ah dc, I think you kind of got what I was saying but then didn't quite 'get it'

I'm not speaking of time in any sense that you would normally think of, linear or cyclical or any such at all. It's not even a matter of 'perceiving' time whatsoever. What I am trying to put across is the concept of omnipresence in its fullest form.

Take for instance this one particular moment in time, right now. I'm sure you have no trouble perceiving that God exists in and is aware of every single speck of existence down to the smallest particle. There is not the tiniest spot in all of creation that God is not currently occupying and/or aware of. This is a classical understanding of omnipresence ... being everywhere all at once.

Now, here's the tricky part. Considering that time is just yet another dimension defining reality, what is sometimes called space-time. You are familiar with Height, Width and Length. Those three comprise the 3-dimensional world we are used to understanding. By assigning a value to those three variables using a fixed point (say, center of universe) you can describe the position of any atom in the universe and it's relative position to any other atom.

Ok, following me I trust? Now, the truth (or at least more accurate truth to our understanding) is that we actually live in a 4-dimensional universe with Time being that fourth dimension. And so, by assigning a value to the variable of Time we can more describe the position of any particular atom not just by it's physical coordinates but also by it's position in Time. As an example, as I started typing this I was siiting at my desk. Right now I am still sitting at my desk but the variable of Time has changed. The description of my position in space/time would remain the same in regards to Height, Width and Length but has changed in regards to Time.

Now, once you soak this in you should realize that it's no different to say that God is everywhere than it is to also say that God is everywhen. He does not 'view' time linearly or cyclically ... He views it all at once.

You mention that book wherein the author described Time as something that hasn't been constructed yet. That is the limited Human perception of Time. The reality is though that the future has indeed been constructed and God is there right now, while He is also right here right now, while He is also with Adam right now.

It's not that God is perceiving anything happening, but rather that it is all happening constantly for Him. It's not that He knows what you are going to do in the future, it's that He is there with you while you are doing it even while He is here with you right now.

It's so hard to use words to try to describe what i'm trying to get across, because you have to completely divorce yourself from any human concept of Time at all and there are no words to describe it that I know of. I suppose you could think of it as if everything that has happened from the beginning of Time til it's end has all happened simultaneously. For God, that is how it works. Time is His creation and He is not bound by it in the sense that we understand it.

In fact, you could just as easily look at it as if God were working backwards through time. That would have just as much meaning as to say God were working forwards through time as we are, i.e. it has no meaning. And it's not as some say that "God exists outside time" ... He actually encompasses all of time.

Anyway, i've rambled on Like I said, it's hard to put words to what I'm saying and so I use too many to try to describe it. If you don't still quite get what I'm saying try reading through this post a few times and see if it sinks in.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

... Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. ...

• Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED....

but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

This verse is not about predestination. Let's examine what this verse is actually saying. Notice it does not say "and as many as had been appointed by God to eternal life believed". The Greek word for appointed is tasso. Whenever tasso is used it also is listed with who the agent of the tasso or appointing is. Notice that God is not mentioned or inferred in the context at all as the agent doing the appointing. That is because in this instance tasso is not in the passive voice but in the middle voice with the Gentiles themselves as being the agents of the appointing. As Scott and Liddle show how ancient Greek used tasso in the middle voice, this could be understood to say "as many as were agreed to eternal life believed". This would agree with v46 where the Jews "considered themselves to be unworthy of eternal life" (NIV)... rejected, and not that God did not appoint them to eternal life. Therefore this would be safe to properly read v48 as "and as many as considered themselves worthy of eternal life believed". Whereas the Jews rejected the Gentiles believed as an action prompted by themselves as the agent of tasso. That is why this word in earlier transalations as "ordained" has been changed because that has been determined to be a bad translation. Appointed is a better word, but consider who the agent doing the appointing is by the context. If you want to make the case that God is the agent doing the appointing then you might as well consider it to be Baal or Satan based on the same lack of evidence for God.

 

[Perceivence]

Hi, and thank for your response. I'm not looking for debate either, but I would like to go as deep as possible into the way we interpret scriptures.

You have to take passages of scripture, such as the one you provided, into context. Notice what he calls these people in verse 8...."But do not overlook this one fact beloved,..."

He is speaking to fellow believers at this point. So His promise in verse 9 is that He will not let any of His elect perish.

So the fellow believers are on the path to destruction and God wishes for their repentance?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. ...

• Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified....

He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

What does the word "predestinate" mean and predesined for what? This verse say's predestination is not for salvation but for conforming. The Greek word used here for predestinate is proorizo. It is a geographical term used for setting boundaries or drawing maps. We get our word horizon from it. Even though God set boundaries it doesn't mean they can't be tresspassed over. The Isrealites were predestined to be a nation unto God (Rom 11:2) yet they tresspassed over His boundaries many times into idolatry and rebellion. Predestine means a mapped out plan.


The misconception you have is translating this word from the Latin Vulgate as a decree. A decree is a statement issued by a judge or king that must be obeyed or force will be used to enforce it. A decree is a certainty but the only thing certain in proorizo are the lines of demarkation not that they will be obeyed. Predesinated plans can be trespassed over.


This verse in Rom is a predestination (a plan) to conform to the image of Christ of those who God foreknew would love Him v28. Not that God makes certain elect people to be saved.

 

[Debi1967]

II. CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE DEATH IN GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION

"Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God"

599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."393 This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.394 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

So therefore he allowed free will and although He had forknowledge and although He had predestined these things to take place he did not interfere with the responses made by men ..... This is our choice our freedom given to us by God.

The premise of Calvinism is that some are either elect or they are not and that it does not, from foreknowledge. That God has already determined who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell. This premise is wrong. If this premise was right then there would be no need for His Son to come and die on the Cross in the first place to be the Saviour of ALL men.

I agree that God is all-powerful, that He is omnipresent, and therefore to Him space and time are not existent. The premise of Calvinism is though that He would intercede if one of His chosen went astray from Him.... We can clearly see in Scripture that this is not so. I also agree that our concept of free will and the concept of free will that you are talking of are two different things.... but in reality we never have more than this anyway.

We have circumstances that limit the choices that we make all the time, but this does NOT though take away the fact that we still do have free will to choose from the limited set of choices given to us either in action or in reaction.

As with God, we have the choice to either accept or reject, but this is still a choice and it is an important choice that we make because it influences our Salvation. This choice is still one of free will .... Yes, God does know the choice that we will make at any given point and time, but that does not mean that it is still not encumbent upon us to still make that choice ourselves. Again, if we choose Him then this is good, but if we so choose to ignore His call and reject Him, well then God will not interfere in that either.

Ultimately, just because, God does know the choice that we will make, does not mean that He is making it for us.

 

[visionary]

I am Alpha and Omega.. the beginning and the end....Can't escape the fact that God is always and always will be "is"

 

[MattGuernsey]

So the fellow believers are on the path to destruction and God wishes for their repentance?

Good question. Verse 9 of 2 Peter 3 is saying .."be patient", for there is still time to gather the elect from among the nations...."not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." This is refering to the elect, for we see in the fist several verse of this chapter the purpose God already has for the ungodly. Verse 7 -"...being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly."
Verse 9 is not suggesting that these believers are on the path to destruction, but rather telling them to be patient for the Lord will come in His appointed time, which will be when all of His elect have been gathered. I hope this answers your question.

 

[MattGuernsey]

This verse in Rom is a predestination (a plan) to conform to the image of Christ of those who God foreknew would love Him v28. Not that God makes certain elect people to be saved.

How would you then explain Romans 9:11-23?

 

[MattGuernsey]

II. CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE DEATH IN GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION

"Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God"

599 Jesus' violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God's plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."393 This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.394 600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

So therefore he allowed free will and although He had forknowledge and although He had predestined these things to take place he did not interfere with the responses made by men ..... This is our choice our freedom given to us by God.

Where does it say God allowed free will? This doesn't make any sense. So you are now saying by this verse that God's plan was indeed carried out perfectly, but only because those men made the right choices totally on their own? I do not follow your logic here.

The premise of Calvinism is that some are either elect or they are not and that it does not, from foreknowledge. That God has already determined who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell. This premise is wrong. If this premise was right then there would be no need for His Son to come and die on the Cross in the first place to be the Saviour of ALL men.

Why not? Why wouldn't God choose to send His Son as part of His predetermined will? You are asserting that there would be no reason for Christ to die, but how do you know this?

I agree that God is all-powerful, that He is omnipresent, and therefore to Him space and time are not existent. The premise of Calvinism is though that He would intercede if one of His chosen went astray from Him.... We can clearly see in Scripture that this is not so. I also agree that our concept of free will and the concept of free will that you are talking of are two different things.... but in reality we never have more than this anyway.

Again you are suggesting that God's plan for His people is totally dependant on man's choices. Once again, you are suggesting by what you are saying, that God does not get what He wants, but rather hopes we will follow through with His plan. This is not the God from Scripture you are speaking of.
You must realize that if God did not intercede...you and I would be totally lost forever. In fact, we would cease to exist. Remember in Genesis how He created the universe? He spoke it into existance, which would suggest the awesome power of His mind. Who's to say that He is not still upholding the universe with His imagination? Our thoughts, actions, motives, etc.. are all being continuously created within the awesome mind of God.

 

[Debi1967]

let me ask you Matt

A Car is coming down the street and you know that it si not good for you to jump in front of it .....

Why then would you jump in front of that car?

Your choice is that you can listen to logic and to the instict that God gave you or you can totally go against sound reasoning and logic and run out in front of that car ..... That is free Will .... Now if you chose by this free will to run out in front of that car against the very logic and sound reason that God gave you, do you really think that He is going to stop you from doing it? NOPE... Your choice .....

 

[Perceivence]

Good question. Verse 9 of 2 Peter 3 is saying .."be patient", for there is still time to gather the elect from among the nations...."not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." This is refering to the elect, for we see in the fist several verse of this chapter the purpose God already has for the ungodly. Verse 7 -"...being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly."
Verse 9 is not suggesting that these believers are on the path to destruction, but rather telling them to be patient for the Lord will come in His appointed time, which will be when all of His elect have been gathered. I hope this answers your question.

So the ones God is patient towards aren't the believers as your first said, but the elect - ie, those chosen by God who now believe and who will believe?

 

[Debi1967]

So the ones God is patient towards aren't the believers as your first said, but the elect - ie, those chosen by God who now believe and who will believe?

Perceivence,

Let me explain something to you that most Calvinists do not tell you ..... let us go all the way back to the first Chapter of 2 Peter shall we and read what is said to the elect ...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

2Pe 1:3 As his divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us by glory and virtue,

2Pe 1:4 through which he has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:5 But for this very reason also, using therewith all diligence, in your faith have also virtue, in virtue knowledge,

2Pe 1:6 in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in endurance godliness,

2Pe 1:7 in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love:

2Pe 1:8 for these things existing and abounding in you make you to be neither idle nor unfruitful as regards the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Pe 1:9 for he with whom these things are not present is blind, short-sighted, and has forgotten the purging of his former sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, use diligence to make your calling and election sure, for doing these things ye will never fall;


2Pe 1:11 for thus shall the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ be richly furnished unto you.

You cannot forget something unless you have already known it, but the Calvinists will tell you that then they were never chosen to Glory to begin with.....(2 Peter 1:9)

But here clearly it states that he is speaking to those chosen to Glory not to Grace. (2 Pet 1:3)

Why would they still have to be diligent to make sure that their calling is sure if it is already so set that it can NEVER be taken away from them? (2 Pet 1:10)

The reason is because we all can give it away..... Even those called to Glory ....

Christ died for all not some, we are either predestined, not predetermined, to either Grace or Glory, but this does not preclude the fact that we can and do have the choice given to us by God to choose....

Calvinism does not take into account that God can and most certainly does give us Free Will ....

 

[MattGuernsey]

So the ones God is patient towards aren't the believers as your first said, but the elect - ie, those chosen by God who now believe and who will believe?

The believers in this passage are among the elect. He is saying to be patient, for He still has more to gather. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

 

[MattGuernsey]

let me ask you Matt

A Car is coming down the street and you know that it si not good for you to jump in front of it .....

Why then would you jump in front of that car?

Your choice is that you can listen to logic and to the instict that God gave you or you can totally go against sound reasoning and logic and run out in front of that car ..... That is free Will .... Now if you chose by this free will to run out in front of that car against the very logic and sound reason that God gave you, do you really think that He is going to stop you from doing it? NOPE... Your choice .....

I think that before you begin to argue your case, you must first understand the opposing view. At this point I don't think you really understand my view. Everything you have just mentioned are motives, instinct, influence, action, reaction, etc... All of which are controlled ultimately by God Himself. You are suggesting that God would not intercede if I abandoned the logic He has given me, and I say if I abandon it..He has already interceded by causing me to abandon it. You see, I believe that God is even controlling you reading this post right now. When I say God is in control...I mean just that.

 

[MattGuernsey]

Perceivence,

Let me explain something to you that most Calvinists do not tell you ..... let us go all the way back to the first Chapter of 2 Peter shall we and read what is said to the elect ...

On the contrary, we Calvanists are open and subject to all of Scripture. Every Thursday night I study with a Latin professor at UF, and he reads the Bible in its Greek and Hebrew form to find the true context and meaning of passages. We take Scripture very seriously and would not hide Scripture as you are suggesting just to try to make our beliefs valid. We don't have to hide any of Scripture. Scripture only contradicts itself when your theology is off.