Predetermined Salvation

[Debi1967]

On the contrary, we Calvanists are open and subject to all of Scripture. Every Thursday night I study with a Latin professor at UF, and he reads the Bible in its Greek and Hebrew form to find the true context and meaning of passages. We take Scripture very seriously and would not hide Scripture as you are suggesting just to try to make our beliefs valid. We don't have to hide any of Scripture. Scripture only contradicts itself when your theology is off.

Considering my theology is not off and I can prove that using the Hebrew and the Greek then please let us do have a discussion ......

My point is well made though .... Contextually when he is speaking to the congregations and is in fact telling them something other than what you espouse ....

Your exegesis is wrong...

 

[dcyates]

Ah dc, I think you kind of got what I was saying but then didn't quite 'get it'
I'm not speaking of time in any sense that you would normally think of, linear or cyclical or any such at all. It's not even a matter of 'perceiving' time whatsoever. What I am trying to put across is the concept of omnipresence in its fullest form.
Take for instance this one particular moment in time, right now. I'm sure you have no trouble perceiving that God exists in and is aware of every single speck of existence down to the smallest particle. There is not the tiniest spot in all of creation that God is not currently occupying and/or aware of. This is a classical understanding of omnipresence ... being everywhere all at once.

I sincerely appreciate the civil 'tone' in your responses, VNV. I pray you recognize the same spirit in mine. I did (and do) know what you're referring to when you describe this concept of time and God's omnipresence within it. It's kind of like looking up at a star-filled night sky. Within your field of vision are several stars. One star you're seeing might be 10 light-years away. Another star might be 100 light years away. Another might be 1,000 light-years away. Another a million light-years away. Another star might be 100 million light-years away. And at the exact same time you also see the moon, from which the light takes less than 2 seconds to reach you. You're seeing objects from 2 seconds ago, 10 years ago, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, a million years ago, and 100 million years ago. But you're seeing all of this all at once, in the same instant; for you it's all 'the present'. Just as all of reality is for God, right? For God, this time-dimension in which he dwells is designated as 'eternity'. Whereas if we spin a pinwheel fast enough, all its colours blend into one--white--which is the essence of all the colours of the spectrum combined. So also, as the theory goes, if we were to, in effect, spin time fast enough, then time-past, time-present, and time-future all blend into a single timelessness, or eternity, which is ostensibly the essence of all time combined. And God, as Isaiah 57.15 in the KJV puts it, "inhabiteth eternity."

Have I got the essential gist of it?

My point is, it was the Greeks, with their concept of cyclical time, that came up with this theory of eternity. And admittedly, there have been some truly excellent thinkers who agree with it (such as C.S. Lewis, for one, and yourself, for another ). But because the Hebrews saw time as essentially linear, they didn't share this view. And this is evident from the testimony of Scripture. First off, there are the instances where God regrets certain actions of his, such as creating humanity in Genesis 6.6, and having made Saul king in 1 Samuel 15.11, "for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commandments." Second, there are the several examples throughout the OT where we're told God had "changed his mind" over one matter or another (e.g., Ex 32.14; Jer 26.13, 19; Amos 7.3, 6). And last, that God does not know the future is most clearly articulated in Jeremiah 3.6-10 (of which I quote here only the most pertinent, vv. 6-7):

Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. And I thought, 'After she has done these things, she will return to me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it'." (Italics mine; see also Jer 18.7-10.)

Now, here's the tricky part. Considering that time is just yet another dimension defining reality, what is sometimes called space-time. You are familiar with Height, Width and Length. Those three comprise the 3-dimensional world we are used to understanding. By assigning a value to those three variables using a fixed point (say, center of universe) you can describe the position of any atom in the universe and it's relative position to any other atom.
Ok, following me I trust? Now, the truth (or at least more accurate truth to our understanding) is that we actually live in a 4-dimensional universe with Time being that fourth dimension. And so, by assigning a value to the variable of Time we can more describe the position of any particular atom not just by it's physical coordinates but also by it's position in Time. As an example, as I started typing this I was siiting at my desk. Right now I am still sitting at my desk but the variable of Time has changed. The description of my position in space/time would remain the same in regards to Height, Width and Length but has changed in regards to Time.
Now, once you soak this in you should realize that it's no different to say that God is everywhere than it is to also say that God is everywhen. He does not 'view' time linearly or cyclically ... He views it all at once.

Yes, I'm aware of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and the role that Time plays as a dimensional plane within it. However, I'm highly uncertain as to whether Einstein actually intended his use of this concept of Time to be employed universally as a theory also to be applied to the flow of time in history. If I understand him correctly, Einstein was primarily concerned with accounting for the phenomena of movement within his theory, recognizing the need to not only quantify movement from Point 'A' to Point 'B' along a spatial plane, but along a temporal one, as well.

It's in this manner that Einstein referred to Time as another dimension to be considered, but I think he also realized that, in reality, if there is the possibility of a 4th dimension, it only stands to reason that it's also a spatial one, as opposed to a temporal one. Just as the 2nd dimension is a 90* angle to the existing dimension of the 1st (e.g., length in relation to width), and the 3rd dimension is a 90* angle to the existing dimensions within the 2-dimensional 'reality' (i.e., height in relation to length and width), then it only stands to reason that the 4th dimension would be a 90* angle to the existing dimensions within the 3-dimensional reality. And so on, and so on...
But to account for movement, Time would have to exist in all dimensions. (Thus, it's not so much another dimension in and of itself as it is supra-dimensional.)

You mention that book wherein the author described Time as something that hasn't been constructed yet.

In the interests of full disclosure, that was all me, not the author of The Gifts of the Jews, Thomas Cahill. All he said was that the Hebrew recognition of history as linear was the 'one truly new idea' to be conceived by the mind of man. I'm afraid I have to claim responsibility for the analogy of thinking of history as a straight wall still in the process of construction.

That is the limited Human perception of Time. The reality is though that the future has indeed been constructed and God is there right now, while He is also right here right now, while He is also with Adam right now.

It's not that God is perceiving anything happening, but rather that it is all happening constantly for Him. It's not that He knows what you are going to do in the future, it's that He is there with you while you are doing it even while He is here with you right now.

Perhaps. But this is the very issue under discussion.

It's so hard to use words to try to describe what i'm trying to get across, because you have to completely divorce yourself from any human concept of Time at all and there are no words to describe it that I know of. I suppose you could think of it as if everything that has happened from the beginning of Time til it's end has all happened simultaneously. For God, that is how it works. Time is His creation and He is not bound by it in the sense that we understand it.

In fact, you could just as easily look at it as if God were working backwards through time. That would have just as much meaning as to say God were working forwards through time as we are, i.e. it has no meaning. And it's not as some say that "God exists outside time" ... He actually encompasses all of time.

I understand. But surely, VNV, you realize all this is pure speculation. As Christians, our authority in matters concerning God is the Bible. And the simple fact is, the Bible doesn't explicate whether God's perception of Time more closely resembles ours, or if it's something else altogether. (Indeed, why would it?) My contention, though, is that the conception of Time you're arguing for was developed in order to reconcile the Bible's God with the Platonic god of Hellenic philosophy. To my way of thinking, I don't believe that to be necessary; the Bible suffices.

Anyway, i've rambled on Like I said, it's hard to put words to what I'm saying and so I use too many to try to describe it. If you don't still quite get what I'm saying try reading through this post a few times and see if it sinks in.

Thanks, VNV. I hope that, via this response, you are also better able to understand where I'm coming from in this.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

How would you then explain Romans 9:11-23?

Paul is describing that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works of the law. What particular part of those verses would you like to discuss first? how about v 11-13? Do you know of any other place in the bible where salvation by works is contrasted to salvation by predestination? what makes you think that Paul is discoursing salvation by works vs salvation by predestination. Paul always discusses salvation by works vs salvation by faith in Christ.

 

[Debi1967]

Paul is describing that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works of the law. What particular part of those verses would you like to discuss first? how about v 11-13? Do you know of any other place in the bible where salvation by works is contrasted to salvation by predestination? what makes you think that Paul is discoursing salvation by works vs salvation by predestination. Paul always discusses salvation by works vs salvation by faith in Christ.

No Paul is describing the Sacred Covenant made with th Isrealites and this is confirmed in the beginning of that chapter

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,

Rom 9:2 that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart,

Rom 9:3 for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh;

Rom 9:4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law-giving, and the service, and the promises;

Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

It seems that he is being very specific as to whom he is speaking to at the time and it is not to Gentile but only to the the Jews that the Covenant was with ... this is re-ittirrated further in the next couple of verses


Rom 9:6 Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel;

Rom 9:7 nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children: but, In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee.

Rom 9:8 That is, they that are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned as seed.

Rom 9:9 For this word is of promise, According to this time I will come, and there shall be a son to Sarah.

Rom 9:10 And not only that , but Rebecca having conceived by one, Isaac our father,

Rom 9:11the children indeed being not yet born, or having done anything good or worthless (that the purpose of God according to election might abide, not of works, but of him that calls),

Rom 9:12 it was said to her, The greater shall serve the less:

Rom 9:13 according as it is written, I have loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No Paul is describing the Sacred Covenant made with th Isrealites and this is confirmed in the beginning of that chapter

I know that, but what is Paul describing about it missy? Paul's message is that salvation is not by works of the law but faith in Christ. This part about Jacob and Esau say's that God does not consider him who works. This means that the covenant is not based on ones merit. What is the purpose of God? That salvation is through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Remeber, "The just shall live by faith" not "the just shall live by predestination". God's purpose in election is not based on works of the law but God's call to faith through the Gospel. Is this mean that God is unjust? unjust to justify man through not working for it by a message preached rather than earning it through works of the law? That is the question Paul is now asking.

 

[Perceivence]

The believers in this passage are among the elect. He is saying to be patient, for He still has more to gather. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Okay. Thanks.

 

[lmnop9876]

i've got a question. it will probably sound dumb, but, if God is not limited by time, and all things are in the present to Him, could it be that He is predestinating people to be conformed to the image of His Son?? if you get what I mean?

 

[Debi1967]

I know that, but what is Paul describing about it missy?

First of all let us get one thing established here my name is Debi not Missy and I would appreciate it being used considering after 38 yrs of my life I have earned that respect at least.

Secondly, This chapter is still telling them to be on GUARD, for what they think they have and can never be lost can most certainly be lost to them .... this was brought out in verse....
Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That they of the nations, who did not follow after righteousness, have attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is on the principle of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, pursuing after a law of righteousness, has not attained to that law.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because it was not on the principle of faith, but as of works. They have stumbled at the stumblingstone,

Rom 9:33 according as it is written, Behold, I place in Zion a stone of stumbling and rock of offence: and he that believes on him shall not be ashamed.


They have continued unto the Law and only the Law thinking that ONLY the Law of Old will save them, not accepting the New Covenant that Christ has come to make.

We see that it is more than the Law it is Faith. That He has made for THEM the Law a stumblingblock because they relied on it so much that they had forgotten to have Faith in the one that came to Fulfill the Law ... The One that had come to make them neither Jew nor Gentile any longer .... But One new man in Christ ....

I do not deny that there are elect to Glory and that there are elect to Grace only....

Both of these states are spoken of in the Bible. Both of them need to be acknowledged, but both can most certainly be given away as a gift may be given away.

For it is spoken oif earlier in this chapter how

Rom 9:12 it was said to her, The greater shall serve the less:
Rom 9:13 according as it is written, I have loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau.
Predestination does not mean that one canot of their own accord willingly and freely give it away?

but, if God is not limited by time, and all things are in the present to Him, could it be that He is predestinating people to be conformed to the image of His Son??

I would like to know why it is that people do not have have a hard time understanding that God is not limited to the same aspect in that if he so wishes he can have forknowledge and yet still not interfere because of that foreknowledge? We do not work on the same plain that He does, therefore our terms of reality and logic is quite different than God's at times, what can seem to us illogical really is logical to and in the realm of God because He is of course God.

To the logic that the Calvinists use, I then use even simpler logic ....Answer me these questions and you all shall see my meaning...

If we are all predetermined and it does not matter because He has already chosen us and nothing we can do or say can change that, then why did the Isrealites have to obey the Old Covenant and Law to begin with?

Why then for the need of the New Covenant for the redemption of ALL Mankind, by the Sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ on the Cross at Calvary?

Why then did He descend into the depths of hell and Hades to preach for three days before being Raised again and then why at Pentecost did He Rise back to Heaven?

Basically Why did the Father allow for His Son to shed His Blood for Mankind?

Then when we look forward into this, the Bible speaks of making One New Man because of the Fulfillment that Christ did, so therefore why the need to fulfill anything?

Why then Did Christ not do away with the Law but re-itterate the Law when he simply stated Love one another as you would have them love you? If you look back at the Old Law everything that is bound in the Old Law is still bound to us today in that one statement because that one statement summarizes all of the Laws simply and succinctly.

Even more basic indeed, if we are chosen and there is nothing we can do to take away that choosing then why Worship the Lord at all, as in reality and logically there would be no need to, we are of course chosen? Why would we have to Love one another and to obey God and His commands of us at all? We are simply chosen.....

Then, what really does not fit into this picture is this, Revelation 20.... And the Day of Judgement.... Why would we be Judged at all if we were PREDETERMINED?

See there would have been no need for Christ to die on the Cross, no need for the Apostles to Preach, no need for the New Testament whatsoever because the Isrealites were already the chosen people. There would be no need for the Day of Judgment of which it says that we are Judged soley and completely not on our Faith but on our Works .... It is our Faith that gets us there to that Judgement before the throne to be Judged ....

The Church does not even deny that there are some that are predestined to Glory with the Lord to reign with Him. But they still do act with Him according to the Word of God.

And they most certainly can give this away freely of their own accord.

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[Debi1967]

Wouldn't it be nice to think that we have no accountability at all unto the Lord.... Unfortunately this is not what the Scriptures teach us they do teach us accountability and so therefore the theory of of random predetermination is useless...

 

[cygnusx1]

Absolutely agree! Predestination seems also to undermine our free will to accept or reject God, and this from my prespective is wholly unchrisitan. And indeed as you say the Gospel message is open to all: Jesus Christ, the pre-existent Word "gives light to everyone" (John 1:9). It is how we respond to that "light" that determines our "eternal future" (cf. John 3:19).



And how could the omnibenevolent God of Christianity predestine people to hell?

How could a Holy and all knowing God Not !!!!

 

[Debi1967]

How could a Holy and all knowing God Not !!!!

We choose Hell it is not that He predestines us there .....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God is Loving Kind and Merciful but also Just ....therefore because God is Just He has to make provision for those that have shown that they are His Faithful and Righteous People.

Yes, there is Hell, and Yes some will go there, this is not to be denied .... but again it will be because of OUR CHOOSING not His that this is Done .... For God so Loved the World that He sent His Only Begotten Son to Redeem this World and Save the World and everyone in it .... God does not Author Evil but He does allow it, He also does though Give us the power if we so choose to overcome it by choice. The Lord does not want robots.....

Seriously here people, Here wants us to make up our own minds as to whether we are going to follow Him or to follow the Author of that Evil which is Satan and in REvelation 20 we do know that the Author will be Abyssed and then destroyed in the Lake of fire and so will all of His followers.

Again why allow Satan to even rule on earth to begin with if we are already predetemined? Does not make sense and is illogical ...

 

[christandisrael]

Only those who do God's will.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

First of all let us get one thing established here my name is Debi not Missy and I would appreciate it being used considering after 38 yrs of my life I have earned that respect at least.

Secondly, This chapter is still telling them to be on GUARD, for what they think they have and can never be lost can most certainly be lost to them .... this was brought out in verse....
Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That they of the nations, who did not follow after righteousness, have attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is on the principle of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, pursuing after a law of righteousness, has not attained to that law.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because it was not on the principle of faith, but as of works. They have stumbled at the stumblingstone,

Rom 9:33 according as it is written, Behold, I place in Zion a stone of stumbling and rock of offence: and he that believes on him shall not be ashamed.


They have continued unto the Law and only the Law thinking that ONLY the Law of Old will save them, not accepting the New Covenant that Christ has come to make.

We see that it is more than the Law it is Faith. That He has made for THEM the Law a stumblingblock because they relied on it so much that they had forgotten to have Faith in the one that came to Fulfill the Law ... The One that had come to make them neither Jew nor Gentile any longer .... But One new man in Christ ....

I do not deny that there are elect to Glory and that there are elect to Grace only....

Both of these states are spoken of in the Bible. Both of them need to be acknowledged, but both can most certainly be given away as a gift may be given away.

For it is spoken oif earlier in this chapter how

Rom 9:12 it was said to her, The greater shall serve the less:
Rom 9:13according as it is written, I have loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau.
Predestination does not mean that one canot of their own accord willingly and freely give it away?

You are younger and prettier than me and that means you are to look up to me as your elder, right?

Anyways, v 30 starts the conclusion of ch 9. What connection is there in that section to the idea of predestination? hint-none! Then what makes you think that the body of the chapter that leads up to the conclusion has anything to do with predestination since nothing of the context lends to that idea? hint-you have been brain washed into thinking it does.

 

[Give'imGlory]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God would say that He's not willing that any perish and then turn around and predestine someone to hell? What kind of God just decides eeney meeney miney moe you go to hell, you go to heaven, you go to hell, you go to heaven? The gospel of Christ is open to everyone. This is another one of those things people are going to continue to debate and disagree on.

I may be wrong but I dont remember reading any scripture that says God predestinated people to go to hell. Unless ofcourse you strecht a scripture to make it sound like he did.

 

[Debi1967]

You are younger and prettier than me and that means you are to look up to me as your elder, right?

Anyways, v 30 starts the conclusion of ch 9. What connection is there in that section to the idea of predestination? hint-none! Then what makes you think that the body of the chapter that leads up to the conclusion has anything to do with predestination since nothing of the context lends to that idea? hint-you have been brain washed into thinking it does.

Do you understand the concept of predestination in the Catholic Church? I am not trying to be offensive when I ask this question, I am asking for a reason.

I believe ealier in this thread I posted Scriptural backing and the thoughts of how we believe it to be as opposed to the Calvinists, which is different .....
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=19528104&postcount=7

It actually takes up the next three posts after that too ....

 

[imissedu]

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will…In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a Biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, Biblically.

The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word “proorizo,” which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous Scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5-7,28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the Biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.



The most common objection do the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God chose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23) and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen because they are receiving what they deserve. God choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God – therefore no one can object if they do not receive anything from God. An illustration would be me handing out money to 5 people in a crowd of 20. Would the 15 people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No they do not. Why? Because I did not own anyone any money. I simply decided to be gracious to some.



If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the free will choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who was seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand in hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”