Predetermined Salvation

[MattGuernsey]

Is salvation for everyone?

Please provide scripture to support your answer.

 

[Lynn73]

2Pe 3:9 - Show Context The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Salvation is open to everyone but not everyone will accept it. Oh, I see you're Calvinist. Just thought I 'd try to answer your question but I don't really want to get into a debate about God predestinating people to heaven or hell. If He's not willing that any perish, it would be a contradiction to deliberately decide for someone when they're born that they're going to hell.

 

[lands21]

Man is completely a sinner who is incapable of understanding and coming to God and has a sinful free will capable only of rejecting God. Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. It can be no other way. If this is so, then there should be verses supporting it. There are:

• Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
• John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
• Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
• Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
• Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
• Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

The preceding scriptures clearly show that the Lord is very active in salvation. He did not simply provide the means of salvation, the cross, but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

 

[Lynn73]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God would say that He's not willing that any perish and then turn around and predestine someone to hell? What kind of God just decides eeney meeney miney moe you go to hell, you go to heaven, you go to hell, you go to heaven? The gospel of Christ is open to everyone. This is another one of those things people are going to continue to debate and disagree on.

 

[Dispy]

From the book The Power of God Unto Salvation" by Joel Finck.

CHAPTER SEVEN

PREDESTINATION

Many times when an event or even a tragedy occurs, someone will say, "Well, I guess it was just meant to happen." Have you ever heard or said this? The world calls this attitude "fatalism," or in more common language, "the fickle finger of fate." Calvinistic theology calls this "predestination." Interestingly, the Islamic religion holds tenaciously to the doctrine of predestination. A familiar expression among Muslims is, "it was Allah's will." They will apply this to virtually everything that happens: good, bad, or indifferent, "It was Allah's will." Of course, our main concern should not be what the world or the theologians or the Islamic religion thinks. Our main concern is what the Bible says, and in this chapter, we are going to be see that the Bible does not say what many think it says about predestination. Many Christians have a vague notion that election and predestination mean the same thing. Usually they think it means that God picks out some people to be saved and passes others by, or even picks out some to be damned. In chapter 6, we showed from the Scriptures that election does not mean that God picks out certain ones to be saved. Perhaps the most conclusive way to show this is from Isaiah 42:1 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is referred to as God's "elect." It is obvious that the Lord Jesus Christ was not "elected" to be saved, for He was never lost. His election has nothing to do with being saved. Rather, His election has everything to do with being put into a position of service and being the source of all blessing.

We further showed that none of the five elections of Scripture have to do with picking out someone to be saved, but rather to God's positioning of a person or a group into a special place of service. This is true of the twelve apostles, including Judas. Judas was also called one of the elect apostles even though he fell from his position. He was put into the position of being one of the twelve apostles for a time. The nation Israel was put into a special position, therefore, they are called "elect." The Body of Christ is put in a special position, and, likewise, called "the elect." The Apostle Paul was put in a special position, elected to be the apostle of the Gentiles.

In this chapter, we are going to see that predestination refers primarily to the predetermined goal that God has for every believer. We will see from the Scriptures that predestination does not mean that God picks someone out for salvation. Predestination means that God has great plans for those who become saved. Once a person becomes saved, predestination relates to what God will do with that person now, and what He will do unto that person and for that person for eternity. This is what predestination is all about.

The ultimate goal of predestination is that the believer in Christ be conformed to the image of Christ. Predestination means that every last person who places their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE conformed to the image of Christ. It may be sooner, or it may be later, but it will happen, for it has been predetermined by the Lord that it will be so. Of course, as they say, "the sooner, the better!"

The first thing we need to do is to understand the meaning of the word, "predestination." Then we will show where this word is found in Scripture. The word "predestination" is actually seldom found in the Bible. Many folks seem to have the notion, perhaps because of some preaching they have heard, that the Bible is just filled with predestination, here, there, and everywhere. But the fact is that this word is found only six times in the Bible. And then, it is not always translatedm"predestination." We will be considering every occurrence of the original word even when it is translated in different ways.

The Greek word for predestination is "proorizo." The prefix, "pro" means "before" and "horizo' means a boundary. Incidently, this is the word from which we get our English word "horizon." A horizon is an imaginary line, or boundary, between the earth and the sky. Putting the two words together, we get, "proorizo' or, "predestination," which means to establish a boundary beforehand. In other words, God has chosen to establish certain boundaries in advance. When considering this literal definition, two questions come to mind: 1) Whose boundaries are preset? 2) What are these preset boundaries?

Let us go to the Scriptures and consider the uses of predestination. In Acts 4:28 the word is used not about the predestination of a believer, but rather it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ. Beginning in verse 27 we read, "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before" (Acts 4:27,28). It is important to realize that these words actually comprise a prayer, so when it says "thy hand," it is referring to God's hand. In other words, God's hand "determined before" (prooridzo) the boundaries of what would become of Christ. God predestined that the Lord Jesus Christ would be crucified. It was part of God's predetermined plan. It was not a surprise. It was not a mistake. It certainly was a sin for those people to do it, but, nevertheless, it was part of God's plan that Christ should die. It does not refer to believers here at all in this use of predestination.

Now, let us look at the next reference in I Corinthians 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." Here, the words "ordained before" again come from "proorizo," or predestined. Paul is referring here to the Mystery which was hidden, but which God predestined before the world unto our glory. This tells us that the Mystery program, even though it was kept secret, was in the mind of God even before the world (lit. "ages") began. It was not just an afterthought used to replace Israel's program when they rejected the Messiah. Again, predestination in this passage has nothing to do with a believer being predestined to salvation. It is simply God's choice to plan and eventually reveal the Mystery through Paul, who tells us time and again that it was first revealed to him. I Corinthians 2:8 goes on to say, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Here is one of the reasons why God kept the Mystery a secret. Part of the Mystery is that the cross would provide payment for the sins of ALL mankind. God kept that secret, for if Satan had known what the cross would fully accomplish, he would not have wanted to see Christ crucified. Therefore, God kept it a secret so that His predetermined plan of salvation would be carried out.

The next passage under our consideration is in Romans 8:29,30. The previous two passages do not refer to predestination with respect to believers. One refers to Christ and the other refers to the Mystery. But now in Romans 8:29-30, we find the word predestination twice, and it definitely refers to believers. Verse 29 begins, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate." Our immediate question is, to what did He predestinate them? To be saved? No, the verse goes on to say, "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." The predestination in verse 29 refers to the goal that God has for every believer in Jesus Christ: that they would be conformed to His image. The fact is that all Christians will one day be conformed to the image of Christ, and again we say, "the sooner the better!" As we grow in the Word of God, rightly divided, we become conformed to the image of Christ. If we refuse to grow in our faith, it will have to wait. But if one is truly saved, he will eventually be conformed to the image of Christ even though it may not happen until the judgment seat of Christ, instead of during this life. But either way, God has predestined that it will happen.

Now, let us go to the next verse, Romans 8:30, and notice another aspect of predestination, "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Here we see a progression that is based on predestination. God predestined those who believe, (members of the Body of Christ), not only to be conformed to the image of Christ, but also to be glorified. Verse 30 ends, "them He also glorified." And indeed all believers will be glorified to some degree. Some will be glorified to a greater glory than others, but everyone who is "in Christ" will be glorified. This has been predetermined by God.

The next passage in which we find the word "predestinated" is Ephesians 1:5. It is interesting that, aside from the two passages in Acts 4:28 and 1 Corinthians 2:7, we find all of the passages on predestination in two chapters of the Bible, Romanschapter 8 and Ephesians chapter 1. Here is another aspect of our predestination, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:5). Part of the blessing we get when we trust Christ is that we are predestined to the position of sonship. Again, predestination does not mean that God has predetermined who He will save, rather, it refers to the things God will do for those who become saved.

The final use of the word predestination is found in Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." To what are the saints predestinated according to this verse? They are predestinated "to obtaining an inheritance." What kind of inheritance does Paul have in mind here? We usually think of an inheritance as getting something in material terms, whether it be a house, land or money. But, here we have an inheritance that is in the spiritual realm.

In Romans, we find a passage which more fully explains what this inheritance is all about. Now, an inheritance is something you are promised in the future. What are we predestined to receive in the future? Romans 8:17 says, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together." In what way will we be joint-heirs with Christ? Paul tells us in II Timothy 2: 12, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us." The predestination which Paul speaks of has to do with an inheritance, and the inheritance in particular that Paul mentions is that when we suffer, we will reign with Christ. God has predetermined that this will be so.

So far we have looked at the six occurrences of predestination in Scripture and not one of them has anything to do with being "picked out" to be saved. One has to do with Christ being set forth as One who would die. One has to do with the Mystery being known and planned by God before the ages began. The other four have to do with the results of being a believer: glorification, adoption and inheritance.

An illustration which is helpful in understanding predestination is that of boarding an airliner. When you get on an airplane that is scheduled to fly from, say, New York to California, you are "destined" to get to California (barring a hijacking or a crash!). Predestination, as portrayed in Scripture, has nothing to do with WHO gets on the airplane. But it has everything to do with WHERE the airplane is going. When you trust Christ, you get on the Divine airliner that never crashes, is neverlate, and it always gets to its destination. Predestination means that once you trust Christ, you have boarded that airliner and now you are going to get to the destination. Whether or not you get on the airliner has not been predetermined, only what happens after you get on!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

 

[Raphael777]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God would say that He's not willing that any perish and then turn around and predestine someone to hell? What kind of God just decides eeney meeney miney moe you go to hell, you go to heaven, you go to hell, you go to heaven? The gospel of Christ is open to everyone. This is another one of those things people are going to continue to debate and disagree on.

Absolutely agree! Predestination seems also to undermine our free will to accept or reject God, and this from my prespective is wholly unchrisitan. And indeed as you say the Gospel message is open to all: Jesus Christ, the pre-existent Word "gives light to everyone" (John 1:9). It is how we respond to that "light" that determines our "eternal future" (cf. John 3:19). And how could the omnibenevolent God of Christianity predestine people to hell?

 

[Debi1967]

III. Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.



1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

 

[Debi1967]

II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.



Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you. 1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

 

[Debi1967]

IV. Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.



Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.


V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice

Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.



Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word "disqualified" comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”

Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.

Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.

Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?

Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.

Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.

Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 – we must be zealous to confirm our call and election; for if we do this we will never fall. But Peter is saying that it is possible to fall, without zeal and perseverance.

2 Peter 2:15 – forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. They had the right way, and then chose to forsake it.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall? Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us? Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.

 

[Debi1967]

VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)



Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.




VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.



2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.




VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).



Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives. Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-III

 

[dcyates]

III. Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

But debiwebi, if predestination means that God knows what we will do before we do it, and that it does not therefore suggest that he also determines what we will do, otherwise the end result is that we have no actual free-will, then the logical inference is that we cannot do anything other than what God already knows we will do, and we have no real free-will anyway. It ends up being a distinction without a difference.

 

[Debi1967]

But debiwebi, if predestination means that God knows what we will do before we do it, and that it does not therefore suggest that he also determines what we will do, otherwise the end result is that we have no actual free-will, then the logical inference is that we cannot do anything other than what God already knows we will do, and we have no real free-will anyway. It ends up being a distinction without a difference.

God knowing what we will do does not necessarily equate to him taking away our free will to choose ....

ex....

You give your child a choice and you know what your child will choose but at the same time it is still the child that is making the choice. Now what if the child chooses something other than what is what would be what you would want for them, and you have the power to change that choice, then you change that choice for them that is taking away their free will..... But if you still allow them to make the wrong choice knowing beforehand that they will make the choice and do nothing to stop such choice and then allow them later to choose to change that choice then you are allowing them an amount of free will because it is of their own choosing and not your own ....

God is desirous of all of His children to be Saved not some but it is our own choosing of we choose not to accept the gift..... He will not interfere in that ....

God does not Author Evil but He does allow it to exist ....For predetermination in the mannerism of which is being stated here to really exist that means that God is unkind and Unloving and that the Bible is not Inspired and that Christ did not come as a Sacrifice for all of Mankind

 

[California Tim]

Man is completely a sinner who is incapable of understanding and coming to God and has a sinful free will capable only of rejecting God. Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. It can be no other way. If this is so, then there should be verses supporting it. There are:

• Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
• John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
• Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
• Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
• Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
• Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

The preceding scriptures clearly show that the Lord is very active in salvation. He did not simply provide the means of salvation, the cross, but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.

Well stated!

I might add the following verses which also address this question so often asked by doubters of predestination:

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."* So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."* Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24)​

Just because I or anyone else do not fully understand the concept, it does not preclude the possibility or reality that predestination and free-will can coexist. The Bible could hardly be any clearer than it is about this issue, leaving one to wonder how it could have better affirmed the concept of predestination than it already has. Some things we simply take on faith (like the Trinity) even though the complete understanding is nigh impossible to grasp in this life. Faith is a beautiful thing.

 

[MattGuernsey]

2 Peter 3:9- The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Salvation is open to everyone but not everyone will accept it. Oh, I see you're Calvinist. Just thought I 'd try to answer your question but I don't really want to get into a debate about God predestinating people to heaven or hell. If He's not willing that any perish, it would be a contradiction to deliberately decide for someone when they're born that they're going to hell.

Hi, and thank for your response. I'm not looking for debate either, but I would like to go as deep as possible into the way we interpret scriptures.

You have to take passages of scripture, such as the one you provided, into context. Notice what he calls these people in verse 8...."But do not overlook this one fact beloved,..."

He is speaking to fellow believers at this point. So His promise in verse 9 is that He will not let any of His elect perish.

 

[MattGuernsey]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that God would say that He's not willing that any perish and then turn around and predestine someone to hell? What kind of God just decides eeney meeney miney moe you go to hell, you go to heaven, you go to hell, you go to heaven? The gospel of Christ is open to everyone. This is another one of those things people are going to continue to debate and disagree on.

I have already responded to your 2 Peter passage, so I'll resist correction pretaining to your use of it.

I will however respond to your question of what kind of a God would predestine people to hell.

You have to understand that the universe does not revolve around us. We were made by God and God has the right to do as he pleases with us. Does this make God evil or mean?...absolutely not! God cannot be held accountable to anyone...He answers to no one. We are His creation and have no right to question Him in this manner.

Here's my Biblical response to your post.
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

 

[MattGuernsey]

Absolutely agree! Predestination seems also to undermine our free will to accept or reject God, and this from my prespective is wholly unchrisitan. And indeed as you say the Gospel message is open to all: Jesus Christ, the pre-existent Word "gives light to everyone" (John 1:9). It is how we respond to that "light" that determines our "eternal future" (cf. John 3:19). And how could the omnibenevolent God of Christianity predestine people to hell?

"Free will" is another topic I would like to discuss, maybe on another thread. But I will say this...by saying we have free will to choose God or reject Him, you are taking credit for your salvation. You are saying it was all up to you to make that choice. Thank God it was not all up to me, otherwise I would be lost for all eternity.

 

[OzSpen]

There's a verse that is worth considering for this subject in Titus 2:11:

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Sincerely,
Spencer

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

I will stick with Augustine on this issue:

CHAP. 37.— WE WERE ELECTED AND PREDESTINATED, NOT BECAUSE WE WERE GOING TO BE HOLY, BUT IN ORDER THAT WE MIGHT BE SO.
​

It would be too tedious to argue about the several points. But you see without doubt, you see with what evidence of apostolic declaration this grace is defended, in opposition to which human merits are set up, as if man should first give something for it to be recompensed to him again. Therefore God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God's will towards himself. He did this according to the riches of His grace, according to His good-will, which He purposed in His beloved Son, in whom we have obtained a share, being predestinated according to the purpose, not ours, but His, who worketh all things to such an extent as that He worketh in us to will also. Moreover, He worketh according to the counsel of His will, that we may be to the praise of His glory. [Phil. 2.13.] For this reason it is that we cry that no one should glory in man, and, thus, not in himself; but whoever glorieth let him glory in the Lord, that he may be for the praise of His glory. Because He Himself worketh according to His purpose that we may be to the praise of His glory, and, of course, holy and immaculate, for which purpose He called us, predestinating us before the foundation of the world. Out of this, His purpose, is that special calling of the elect for whom He co-worketh with all things for good, because they are called according to His purpose, and "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." [Rom. 11.29.]

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[MattGuernsey]

III. Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill).

Thank you for your posts on this thread. I would appreciate it though, if you would provide only a few passages of scripture at a time so that we can examine each to the fullest.

Now, if God simply knows what we are going to do, then how is it that His perfect plan will be accomplished?...since according to you, He does not actively control our decisions, which would mean that any plan He has for humanity is totally dependant on us making the right choices to acheive the desired end result. You are saying that God does not get what He wants, for we know that many go to hell every day. Are we still talking about GOD here? GOD doesn't get what He wants?

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

So God has made even the wicked for the specific purpose of damnation. There is no free choice here.

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

God will accomplish all that He has set out to do. This would not be possible if we had the ability to choose freely. Once again, His purpose would be dependant on us making the right choices. This does not make any sense.

 

[BBAS 64]

Absolutely agree! Predestination seems also to undermine our free will to accept or reject God, and this from my prespective is wholly unchrisitan. And indeed as you say the Gospel message is open to all: Jesus Christ, the pre-existent Word "gives light to everyone" (John 1:9). It is how we respond to that "light" that determines our "eternal future" (cf. John 3:19). And how could the omnibenevolent God of Christianity predestine people to hell?

Good Day, Raphael777

As Augustine notes:

I certainly could not have said, had I already known that faith itself also is found among those gifts of God which are given by the same Spirit. Both, therefore, are ours on account of the choice of the will, and yet both are given by the spirit of faith and love. For faith is not alone, but, as it is written, 'Love with faith, from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.' [Eph. 4.23.] And what I said a little after,—'For it is ours to believe and to will, but it is His to give to those who believe and will, the power of doing good works through the Holy Spirit, by whom love is shed abroad in our hearts,'—is true indeed; but by the same rule both are also God's, because God prepares the will; and both are ours too, because they are only brought about with our good wills.


You are not you own for you where bought with a price. Your will is Gods.

Read my Sig ...

Peace to u,

Bill