predestined

fhansen · Jan 29, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

The question doesn't matter much anyway since no one can know with 100% certainty who is saved and who is not, who are numbered among the elect and who are not, who will persevere and who will not.

Aside from that, whether you or I or God or someone else happens to know the future does not alter the chronological history and choices made throughout that time that ultimately causes that future.

redleghunter · Jan 29, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
If it's predestined why even live this part of life, God has already decided who goes to heaven or hell...what would be the purpose of us going through the filtration process to find out who is good and makes it, and who is evil and does not, it makes no sense.

How is this a valid refutation of God predestines? It’s the same argument those who ignore eternal punishment say God is love and would never punish anyone.

Kenny'sID said:
EDIT:You ended up offering no defense whatsoever for predestination, at least that I could see. If you like, you can explain how your replies are a defense so I can maybe get a better idea of your points.

Clear apostolic teaching. Meaning it is Biblical doctrine:

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

redleghunter · Jan 29, 2019

fhansen said:
The question doesn't matter much anyway since no one can know with 100% certainty who is saved and who is not, who are numbered among the elect and who are not, who will persevere and who will not.

Aside from that, whether you or I or God or someone else happens to know the future does not alter the chronological history and choices made throughout that time that ultimately causes that future.

A well measured response.

Neogaia777 · Jan 29, 2019

If someone knows what your gonna choose before you choose it, how can you ever really make a choice...?

God Bless!

redleghunter · Jan 29, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
If someone knows what your gonna choose before you choose it, how can you ever really make a choice...?

God Bless!

How do you know?

Neogaia777 · Jan 29, 2019

redleghunter said:
How do you know?

Wouldn't seem that you could...? Not really...

God Bless!

Loyce KG · Jan 29, 2019

When I do good, I do so by the grace of God. He empowers me and wills me to do so. However, when I do sin or bad, I am fully to blame. God is Holy and in Him is no evil. Those He condemns to judgement are held responsible because of sin and rebellion.

Our responsibility is not limited by our ability. The assumption that since our ability is limited therefore our responsibility is limited, is wrong (taught by arminians and hyper-Calvinists). Scripture asks us to do things we can't do by ourselves like "Be ur perfect as your father in Heaven is" and the point is that acknowledgement of our inability to accomplish these in ourselves should draw us to God and make us rely on His grace for empowerment.

We can never figure out the mind of God and His Wisdom. So we shall wrestle with reconciling the concept of predestination, election, God's justice and Love.

“Who could ever wrap their minds around the riches of God, the depth of his wisdom, and the marvel of his perfect knowledge? Who could ever explain the wonder of his decisions or search out the mysterious way he carries out his plans? For who has discovered how the Lord thinks or is wise enough to be the one to advise him in his plans? Or: “Who has ever first given something to God that obligates God to owe him something in return?””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:33-35‬ ‭
The answer is None!

This is our encouragement therefore vs 36;
“For OF Him and THROUGH Him and TO Him are ALL things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:36‬ ‭

redleghunter · Jan 29, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
Wouldn't seem that you could...? Not really...

God Bless!

Then knowing God predestines should not be something to bring about trepidation.

Knowing we are all sinners and condemned before a Holy God in need of Christ should occupy our minds and hearts.

Radagast · Jan 29, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
If someone knows what your gonna choose before you choose it, how can you ever really make a choice...?

We can make a choice, if you mean that we do the thing that we want to do.

We can't make a choice, if you mean that we could have done something different.

Radagast · Jan 29, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Whether that's true or not, it's still true that "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16) and "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

SinoBen · Jan 29, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

The relationship between foreknowledge and predestination is not cause and effect.

God foreknows everything but He does not predestinate all events.

1 Samuel 23:1-14

Radagast · Jan 29, 2019

SinoBen said:
The relationship between foreknowledge and predestination is not cause and effect.

This is actually irrelevant to the point being made. If the future is foreseen, then it must take place as foreseen.

This is why Open Theists deny foreknowledge (as traditionally understood).

SinoBen · Jan 29, 2019

Radagast said:
This is actually irrelevant to the point being made. If the future is foreseen, then it must take place as foreseen.

This is why Open Theists deny foreknowledge (as traditionally understood).

Hopefully the OP will not think like you do and sees this as irrelevant.

The fact that God can foresee events that never took place says something about human choice.

Cis.jd · Jan 29, 2019

redleghunter said:
We don’t know who is elect. Our job is to preach the Gospel.

Do we have to do this, or can we just live by faith alone?

Radagast · Jan 29, 2019

SinoBen said:
The fact that God can foresee events that never took place says something about human choice.

That makes no sense -- it's logically impossible.

Presumably what you mean is that God knows counterfactuals, which is a different thing.

Radagast · Jan 29, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Do we have to do this, or can we just live by faith alone?

Yes, we must preach the gospel.

Cis.jd · Jan 29, 2019

Radagast said:
Yes, we must preach the gospel.

oh.. I don't understand. I can't just have faith and sit/be quite/go about my business, i have to do stuff?

Pethesedzao · Jan 29, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Jesus commissioned and commanded His disciples to go into ALL the world and preach the gospel...

Cis.jd · Jan 29, 2019

Loyce KG said:
Scripture asks us to do things we can't do Be perfect as God is impossible and the point is that our acknowledgement of our inability should draw us to rely on God's grace for empowerment.

No it doesn't. Why do things to make us perfect as God when we live by faith alone? That is undermining to what Christ did on the cross because what is the point of being perfect as God when all we need to do is accept him?

Oldmantook · Jan 29, 2019

SayaOtonashi said:
Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

Yup. Such is the Calvinistic mindset.

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