predestination

[rnmomof7]

Calvinism:

Where Calvinism Leads​

[font=verdana,arial]http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/theo/calvin9.html[/font]

[font=verdana,arial]In Calvinism, God is ultimately the author of both good and evil. He sovereignly controls everything including Satan. The Star Wars movies presented this philosophy in its "god," the "Force," with both a good side and a dark side. [/font]

Do you deny that God is sovereign over Satan.


The Bible tells us He is . If you believe otherwise you have a dualistic theology.

When the philosophy that drives Calvinism is projected to its logical conclusion, even Satan's activity is an extension of God. God sovereignly controls Satan's every move, making God the author of everything evil, and the most wicked sinner of all. The God of the Bible does not resemble this kind of god.

Yes Satan is a tool in the hand of God. He can do nothing without the permission of God.


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Job 1:7**
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

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Job 1:8**
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?



Notice that God was the one that suggested Job, not Satan

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Job 1:9**
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

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Job 1:10**
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

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Job 1:11**
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

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Job 1:12**
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God suggested and set the parameters of the test.

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Job 2:2**
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

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Job 2:3**
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

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Job 2:4**
And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

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Job 2:5**
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

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Job 2:6**
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.




Satan can do nothing without the permission of God.

Remember the scripture

1Pe 5:8**
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He is not a god. He is not equal to God in power that he could do any task without the permission of God. That is a dualistic religion not Christianity.

I John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

We must keep in mind that Satan's ultimate ambition is to usurp God's position, [Isaiah 14:13-15, 2 Thes. 2:3,4]. Satan cannot make himself holy, but, he can make God appear to be unholy, closing the gap between man's perception of God and Satan. Satan simply assumes the dark side of God. Then, as Darth Vader puts it, "the circle is now complete." This philosophical merging of God and Satan in effect fulfills Satan's ultimate aspiration.

Indeed he set himself up as an adversary to God. But God even allowed that . God could have destroyed Lucifer when he rebelled..or God could not have given the angels an ability to rebel .

Actually it is you that fulfill the dream of Satan by proclaiming him equal or superior to God. You seem to treat it as if it is an even match, when it is not even close.

First Corinthians 10:13 promises us that God will not permit a greater trial than we can bear, James 1:13 tells us that God will not tempt us with evil.

God is certainly sovereign over evil. . There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree.He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).

But God is never its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things--including all the fruits of all the evil of all time--work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

Calvinism is consistent that God is God over ALL , not just those things that ALLOW him to be sovereign.

God is Light and in Him there is no darkness.


1Jo 1:7**But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Psa 97:11**
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The saved walk in that light.


But this is not an argument on whether or not God is Holy , it is a discussion on just how sovereign God is . You describe a very weak god that could not protect His own It makes God subject to the whim and works of Satan

The danger for Christians, however, is that only one baby step separates the Calvinism, taught in mainstream Evangelical churches, from the logical philosophical conclusion, that God is both good and evil. Ultimately, God is Satan and Satan is God. In the last days this philosophy will facilitate Christians worshipping the Beast. I have received a fair amount of "hate mail" from Calvinists because of this article.

It might be because you slander us with your foolish chatter. You do not know or understand Calvinism .

Usually they accuse me of equating Calvinism with the Occult. But, that is not what I have written. Unfortunately, in most cases, they have misunderstood my point. I am NOT saying that Calvinism teaches God is wicked, or a sinner, or even directly responsible for sin.

I think you do need to read what you have written and then repent before you deny it . You have accused us of causing people to worship the beast. When in fact your theology worships satan as the equal of God

Calvinists stop short of drawing those conclusions. I am saying that this is the outcome when you project Calvinism's philosophy to its logical conclusion. And lets be frank. If the logical outcome of a particular philosophy is impossible, then the system is illogical. [/size][/font]

Your bio says you are an ordained minister. I would be interested in what church

 

[augustine32]

The logical end of your system is open theism because if God knows all things then they must be fixed. It is impossible for an unfixed event to be known before-hand. Therefore, God must limit his omniscience so that men are allowed their absolute free will.

On the other hand the book of Job shows Satan under the control of God. God sets the exact limits in which Satan may work. The same with Peter. Satan asked to sift him like wheat, yet Jesus limited the work of Satan through His prayer.

 

[Chappie]

All these assertions are grand. Now BACK IT UP. You've made the claims, so please show the premises for your conclusions. Otherwise you're just a resounding noise.

Greetings Fru..

I posted the article to show that almost anyone that can see the truth of Reformed Theology, object to it mostly because of the negative shadow that it casts upon the revealed nature of God.

You say that we promote lies. Read Augustine’s post immediately above. He is a Calvinist, and apparently he knows and accepts where Reformed Theology leads. But he is willing according to his post to accept the truth of it and live with it.

While most Calvinists are screaming "LIES" and false accusations, he has apparently chosen to deal with the God produced by Reformed Theology...

Like I have said on so many different occasions, I know that Few, if any, Calvinist that believe to this end. So I will say this again. Most Calvinist that I have came to know personally and through theology boards appear to be beautiful people, therefore I stipulate that I do not have a real problem with most Calvinists personally; but I do have a "BIG" problem with Reformed Theology when it is thought out to its reasonable and logical conclusion.

Most Calvinists when they see their theology heading into never never land chose to stop the boat and drop anchor. Instead of staying on the ship until it lands, they are willing to close their eyes and ears to the truth that exists past the point where it is pleasing to them.

This article makes some conclusions that are completely and wholly false, not to mention that the logical conclusions one could draw by assuming this article is actually correct throw God to the other end of the spectrum in the extreme.

Augustine appears to have accepted them, or perhaps you could be willing to evaluate his post for me...

Anyway, if you want to take this line of faulty reasoning and make these assertions, please start another thread with your article. The implication is rather obvious...that we Calvinists are occultists and are either too ignorant to realize it or are willfully suppressing it. You are flirting with slander here friend, and giving no substance to back up the claims.

Like I said, start a thread.

I have not slandered you Fru, that is the best that I have to give. Still in discussing Reformed Theology, may God forgive me if I do not allow the chips to fall where they may.

You accuse me of flirting with slander, I understand your anger. Can you understand mine? With all my heart, and with every bit of knowledge that I have gained from scripture, I believe that reformed theology slanders God when it is considered to its logical and inevitable conclusion.

I do not believe that you as a person slanders God, I do not believe that reformed theology, as far as you are willing to take it slanders God. Still, I must reiterate, that when the totality of reformed theology is considered, it does slander God.

Why do you think that that is the main problem that most non reformers have with reformed theology? And there are millions of us out there Fru; I am not the only one.

May God Bless.

 

[augustine32]

Amos 3:6 "If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it"

Not my words, but the Bible's. I do not claim that God is the author of sin, but that all sin that occurs God allows thereby directing it in His eternal plan. Joseph was sold to Egypt and it was meant for evil by his brothers. But God was the one that ultimately allowed that event and meant it for good. Case in point!

 

[rnmomof7]

Why do you think that that is the main problem that most non reformers have with reformed theology? And there are millions of us out there Fru; I am not the only one.

There are many that like the lie of Eden "ye shall be as gods"

The thought of God having the final say and not man is one that a lot of people can not stand about Calvinism. The lie is squarely in their heart. They worship their own will over god.

When that happens Jesus is not Lord and that is a spiritual problem

 

[Chappie]

The logical end of your system is open theism because if God knows all things then they must be fixed. It is impossible for an unfixed event to be known before-hand. Therefore, God must limit his omniscience so that men are allowed their absolute free will.

Shucks dude, those arminians hate me almost as much as reformers. They carry almost as much preconcieved baggage as the reformers. I'm an OSAS'er. I share that with my Calvinist brothers..

On the other hand the book of Job shows Satan under the control of God. God sets the exact limits in which Satan may work. The same with Peter. Satan asked to sift him like wheat, yet Jesus limited the work of Satan through His prayer.

What the book of Job shows precisely is that Satan has freewill within the bounds placed on him by God. Not that he is controled by God. Satan wanted to exceed his bounds with Job, For that he needed permission from God. God does not proactively send Satan out to do his evil. Notice that the evil perpetrated upon Job was satan's Idea, not God's. It all started because God was praising Job for his obedience. Not an evil idea.

Why does Reformed Theology need a God that is as comfortable doing evil as he is doing good in order to work? Sumptin wrong here bubba....

 

[Chappie]

There are many that like the lie of Eden "ye shall be as gods"

The thought of God having the final say and not man is one that a lot of people can not stand about Calvinism. The lie is squarely in their heart. They worship their own will over god.

When that happens Jesus is not Lord and that is a spiritual problem

I can see that you are a real warrior rnmomof7, if you can see nothing to attack, invent something... All men that believe that there is a God know that he hs the final say. We just believe that between the beginning, and that final say, God is interested in what man has to say... But you believe that everything that we say, God said it for us.... Shall we pray?

 

[augustine32]

From what you just said it almost sounds like we agree. No God does not DO evil, but He only allows it according to the extent of His plan. He did not let the brothers kill Joseph - i.e. He restrained that evil - but He did allow the evil of selling Joseph into slavery so that Joseph's family and much of the known world would be saved by Joseph's work in Egypt. And He meant it all for good. This world would be a much worse place if God was not in control of evil. For then man would sin to his greatest capacity and we would all be Hitlers. But God restrains evil so that we are not as bad as we would be. i.e. Joseph's brothers - wanted to kill him, but only sell him into slavery.

 

[Chappie]

Amos 3:6 "If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it"

Not my words, but the Bible's. I do not claim that God is the author of sin, but that all sin that occurs God allows thereby directing it in His eternal plan. Joseph was sold to Egypt and it was meant for evil by his brothers. But God was the one that ultimately allowed that event and meant it for good. Case in point!

My hats off to ya Augustine, at a minimum you are true to your theology. You do not stop short and scream "Lies, lies, they are telling lies on us. We disagree, but we do it honestly.

 

[augustine32]

You say we disagree, so show what you think of rnmom's reply about Job, or the story of Joseph. The Lord's prayer reads "lead us not into temptation" Would that be in there if God could not lead us into temptation. Is it merely hyperboly? No God does not tempt, but there is a difference. He does this so that our faith will be tested not that He needs to see the results, but so that we may. The Bible gives so many examples of evil being directed and used for God, but it is not God's quick thinking that overrules for good, but just as He said to the sea it is His "thus far and no further" that dictates evil.

 

[Chappie]

From what you just said it almost sounds like we agree. No God does not DO evil, but He only allows it according to the extent of His plan. He did not let the brothers kill Joseph - i.e. He restrained that evil - but He did allow the evil of selling Joseph into slavery so that Joseph's family and much of the known world would be saved by Joseph's work in Egypt. And He meant it all for good. This world would be a much worse place if God was not in control of evil. For then man would sin to his greatest capacity and we would all be Hitlers. But God restrains evil so that we are not as bad as we would be. i.e. Joseph's brothers - wanted to kill him, but only sell him into slavery.

I would say that we have gained in the realm of common ground. Below are the things that I would say slightly differently..

He allows it as part of his plan to destroy it.

He allowed it all, but out of his love for man; he would not allow the full consequences of that evil to fall on man.

This world would be hell itself if God did not place limits on what he will allow evil to accomplish.

 

[rnmomof7]

Shucks dude, those arminians hate me almost as much as reformers. They carry almost as much preconcieved baggage as the reformers. I'm an OSAS'er. I share that with my Calvinist brothers..

What the book of Job shows precisely is that Satan has freewill within the bounds placed on him by God. Not that he is controled by God. Satan wanted to exceed his bounds with Job, For that he needed permission from God. God does not proactively send Satan out to do his evil. Notice that the evil perpetrated upon Job was satan's Idea, not God's. It all started because God was praising Job for his obedience. Not an evil idea.

Wrong it is exactly the opposite. Satan comes to God and God SUGGESTS Job as a target . God then controls what Satan has permission to do.


God prevents man from sinning.

 

[Chappie]

You say we disagree, so show what you think of rnmom's reply about Job, or the story of Joseph. The Lord's prayer reads "lead us not into temptation" Would that be in there if God could not lead us into temptation. Is it merely hyperboly? No God does not tempt, but there is a difference. He does this so that our faith will be tested not that He needs to see the results, but so that we may. The Bible gives so many examples of evil being directed and used for God, but it is not God's quick thinking that overrules for good, but just as He said to the sea it is His "thus far and no further" that dictates evil.

"The Lord's prayer reads "lead us not into temptation" Would that be in there if God could not lead us into temptation": That prayer has already been answered, the bible tells us that no man when he is tempted can he say that he is tempted of God, For God temps no man.

To tempt, to entice one to act outside of their sense of morality in order to attain some possesion or pleasure.

To test, to confront one with hardship to strengthen ones courage and resolve...

Which one does God do?

 

[augustine32]

I would say that we have gained in the realm of common ground. Below are the things that I would say slightly differently..

He allows it as part of his plan to destroy it.

He allowed it all, but out of his love for man; he would not allow the full consequences of that evil to fall on man.

This world would be hell itself if God did not place limits on what he will allow evil to accomplish.

Definitely some common ground there. First of all it was a short post so I did not have time to say all that you added. The first point is definitely correct as can be seen in the cross. The greatest evil in the world was the one that defeated the devil and destroyed the power of death. But I would also add that He not only allowed the cross, but predestined it.

I don't know about the second part. In some cases God does prevent all of the consequences of our sin from being upon us, but other times it does especially with those who end up in hell.

The third is a definite agreement, but again did God not bring heathen nations against Israel to punish them. Did not innocent children get swept away with the sinning adults. Think about it. There are many evil or bad things that occur in the Bible that are directly attributed to God.

 

[augustine32]

Could not hardship be having to stand firm against temptation? Did not the Spirit lead Christ out into the wilderness to be tempted. Did God tempt? No. Did God lead into temptation? Yes.

 

[augustine32]

Then why pray the prayer? Should we still pray for daily food? Should we still pray to be delivered from evil? Yes.

 

[Chappie]

Wrong it is exactly the opposite. Satan comes to God and God SUGGESTS Job as a target . God then controls what Satan has permission to do.


God prevents man from sinning.

Then I shall leave you to contend with your evil God. Wonder who's next on Gods of those that need a good dose of evil....

 

[rnmomof7]

I can see that you are a real warrior rnmomof7, if you can see nothing to attack, invent something... All men that believe that there is a God know that he hs the final say. We just believe that between the beginning, and that final say, God is interested in what man has to say... But you believe that everything that we say, God said it for us.... Shall we pray?

No that is not what you said.It is you changing the topic.


It is a nice try though

So lets try again

Can and does Satan act without Gods permission ?

Yes or No ???

You claim that believing that brings one to the brink of worshipping the anti christ will not go away by diversion. So lets finish this first.

Can Satan act on his own outside of the ordained will of God?

You wrote this

In Calvinism, God is ultimately the author of both good and evil. He sovereignly controls everything including Satan. The Star Wars movies presented this philosophy in its "god," the "Force," with both a good side and a dark side.
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When the philosophy that drives Calvinism is projected to its logical conclusion, even Satan's activity is an extension of God God sovereignly controls Satan's every move, making God the author of everything evil, and the most wicked sinner of all. The God of the Bible does not resemble this kind of god.

That sure does not sound like you REALLY believe that God is sovereign over Satan..you have said just the opposite and proclaimed that makes God evil

What church are you ordained in?

 

[augustine32]

Why would God point out the most righteous man to Satan? Would God not be wise enough to know that that act would cause Satan to take notice of Job and make a target out of him? Sounds like He is suggesting Job to me. Read Job's reply to God in ch. 42. Job does not know that the devil was involved in this. He readily admits that Gods purposes, while being difficult to discern will always be worked out. Also Job 2:10 he ascribes all that has happened to God and yet did not sin with his lips.

 

[rnmomof7]

Then I shall leave you to contend with your evil God. Wonder who's next on Gods of those that need a good dose of evil....

Proof positive that you see God and Satan as combating forces ..You refute the scripture that clearly shows that God is sovereign over all creation even His angels fallen and holy.

Job is given to us for the purpose to illustrate that . Yet you choose what the scripture clearly says.

You Say

All men that believe that there is a God know that he hs the final say. [/b]

You say it but do not REALLY believe it

How could David the prophet make this promise?
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Psa 91:9**
Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

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Psa 91:10**
There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

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Psa 91:11**
For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. Only a sovereign God could make this promise.

Chap either you really believe God is on or you just pay Him lip service. Address the scripture given as example instead of your slander against God and Reformed believers.