predestination

Chappie · Jan 16, 2004

augustine32 said:
Acts 4
27***"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28***to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

What you are saying contradicts the above passage directly. Besides what if the Jews had decided to take matters into their own hands and stoned Christ. Then would the prophecy have been fulfilled? No. They had to crucify Christ so that the prophecy would be fulfilled.

The wages of sin is death. Putting Christ to death was sin so they will be punished for it. Did God sin? No. He predestined that an event would happen and naturally wicked men did what their hearts led them to do. Explain the above passage in light of that.

Augustine:
First of all, let me say that i have gained a measure of respect for the things that you say. Let me say tho, that I am still a long way from accepting reformed theology, I have listened to Calvinist for a long time, their responses all seem like there is someone behind them, telling them what to say. You do not hide behind big words nor interlectual catchisims. And to this point you have not tried to re-translate the bible to embrace your purposes. You seem to do the best that you can with what you have written before you. That I respect.

Now, before i formulate a response to you, i would like to ask: What version of the bible uses the word "predestined" in Acts 4:28?

Next, what passages do you use to state that it is prophsied that Christ must be crucified?

nobdysfool · Jan 16, 2004

deleted, duplicate post

nobdysfool · Jan 16, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Spiritual death vs physical death; yes a "physically dead" person doesn't do anything. But --- does a spiritually dead person walk outside and see BLUE SKY? Does he recognize the sky is blue? Does he recognize that black-n-white care behind him with the flashing lights is a COP, and pull over? Does he pull a stack of papers from his wallet, and select one with the correct numbers to purchase a hamburger? Seems that a spiritually dead person can do quite a NUMBER of things. Why not LISTEN to the Gospel, and CONSIDER that Jesus IS the Savior?

So listening to the Gospel is no different than looking at the sky and seeing it is blue, or being able to sort through money in his wallet and using the correct one to purchase a hamburger? Really?? Just another mental exercise, like doing math problems, or balancing his checkbook? Are they physical exercises, or spiritual ones? Or are physical and spiritual exercises no different, other than subject matter? That seems to be what you're saying here Ben, but what saith the scriptures???

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:18)

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1Co 1:21-23)

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:13-15)

This is what you refuse to acknowledge, that a spiritually dead man, while he may hear, he does not understand, and while spiritually dead, the Gospel is foolishness to him. You may agree readily enough with that statement itself, but you shy away from its ramifications. In my illustration, I am not talking about anything other than life itself, not whether or not a spirirutally dead man can do anything. Spiritual death and physical death are not the same, but they are related. My comparison is valid when we are talking about life itself. The physically dead man cannot restart his own heart, and likewise, the spiritually dead man cannot regenerate his own heart. Action from outside either one is required to revive the heart, either physically or spiritually.

Ben said:
The question between us, is "does God CAUSE their reprobation." Did God create lucifer as EVIL? The Scripture says: "You were blameless and perfect in all your ways, until the day iniquity was found in you..."

God created Lucifer as perfect, and blameless, as the scripture says. What Lucifer became was his own doing, his own responsibility, but he did not surprise God by doing so. God knew that Lucifer would rebel, He wouldn't be God if He didn't.

Ben said:
You seem to take the Rom9 passage to mean, "God SHAPES some as good, and God SHAPES some as evil." This I cannot see in Scripture...

God does not shape them AS good or AS evil, He shapes them FOR good, or FOR evil. I think you're confused on causality, and how that relates to this. I have just given you a clear distinction between primary and secondary causality. If God foreknows something and has it within His power to prevent it (both of which are fundamental to the characteristics and nature of God) then of necessity He is the primary cause of its occurance by means of permissive will. I am arguing for primary causality, in creating them FOR good, or FOR evil. If I were to say, as you have wrongly inferred, that God created them AS good or AS evil, that would be making God the secondary cause of their condition, which would in fact make God the author of sin. Neither one of us believes that, I trust. I know I don't. What they become is their own responsibility.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; (Act 17:28a) God is the Creator and Sustainer of all things. God is the primary cause of all things. Since He posesses the ability to cease to sustain things, or prevent them from coming into being or happening, it necessarily follows that all things are ordained in one way or another by Him. To deny this is, in reality, Deism.

Ben said:
Oh they'll try any excuse they CAN; but God promises "they are without excuse"...

That they are without an excuse is a given. I seriously doubt that when the reprobate come before God that they will have the ability to challenge God. They will be fortunate to even be able to stand upright, let alone speak.

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

ABIC said:
Cannot be born again before belief

Agreed.

Grace and Faith are given by God cannot be done by man

Scriptures?
"With the heart man believes" (salvic-faith) Rm10:10.
"Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9
"Your faith has saved you." Lk7:50
"By your endurance save your souls." Lk21:19

"You are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace." Gal5:7
"See that none fall short of God's grace. Do not refuse Him who warns from Heaven, much less shall WE escaoe who turn away from Him." Heb12:15 & 25

Man did nothing but believe since God removed the blind that we had from this world

Pretty much true; but it was BELIEF that "removed the blind", not vice versa...

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Augustine said:
Ben, you know full well that you did not answer my direct questions but only danced around the issue. Did God predestine that Christ die? Did He gather together Herod, Pilate, etc. to do His will or not? Did the Spirit lead Christ into the wilderness to be tempted or not? And again, what is the difference between His foreknowing and foredoing? Yes God is outside of time, yet Christ was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, which is a certain point in time - did God just see it would happen or did He predetermine it? He knew it would happened because He planned it. If so then Herod, Pilate, the Jews and Roman soldiers did not have a say in the matter as to whether they crucified Christ or not. Yes they did do what was according to their nature but IT HAD TO HAPPEN!

Jesus was predestined-before-time; We were not. We become "chosen-in-Him-before-tome", when we JOIN the "Jesus-predestined-before-time". This is the only view that harmonizes all of Scripture. If I was to believe "we were PREDESTINED-TO-SALVATION", then no TRULY SAVED could ever become UNSAVED. BUt I have cited many verses that say otherwise...

What about Judas? Was his betrayal, PRE-ORDAINED? Do you think Jesus would not have been crucified, if NOT for Judas' betrayal??? ForeKNOWE, is not to foreCAUSE.

In Jn6:67 Jesus asked the disciples if THEY were going to leave Him; Peter assured Him they were NOT. Jesus said, in essence: "You twelve were all chosen TOGETHER, but one of you DID leave!" Leaving was POSSIBLE. How is it that you think they were PREDESTINED?

Also, realizing that you are a sinner and need a saviour is what the Bible calls being poor in spirit. [/qute]I'm afraid not. For then you would be claiming that the LOST, are BLESSED.
"BLessed are the POOR IN SPIRIT".
Luke6:20: "Blessed are you who are POOR, for yours is the kingdom of God."

This is a mark of one in the kingdom and the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Matthew 5:3 Yet before you are born again you cannot even see that kingdom. Please explain this according to your view. Thanks

Click to expand...

Read Jn3. In vs3 Jesus tells Nicodemus, "you must be born again." Nick says "WHAT?!" Jesus explains, "flesh AND Spirit". Nick says "How can this be?" Jesus says, "You're a TEACHER??? Whoever believes may have eternal life. God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should not perish but have eternal life. He who believes is not judged, he who does NOT believe is judged already, BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Can you deny that Jesus is teaching, "You are born again, the second birth SPIRITUAL,
THROUGH BELIEF?

Believe causes us to be born-again; not vice-versa...

Received · Jan 17, 2004

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; (Act 17:28a)

God is the Creator and Sustainer of all things. God is the primary cause of all things. Since He posesses the ability to cease to sustain things, or prevent them from coming into being or happening, it necessarily follows that all things are ordained in one way or another by Him. To deny this is, in reality, Deism.

While I like the force of your argument, I cannot honestly say that it has any effect on the side you are opposing. God's ordination is simply our way of saying what He allows to come to pass. He cannot have things come to pass without a will bring it about. Thus, in a sense, God's ordination is conditional on our actualization -- without which nothing could come to pass but what He actualizes. And this is a very important point, for if you wish to have support for Romans 9 regarding ordination, you must therefore state that God causes the vessel of wrath to appear as they are. The non-Calvinist will merely allude to Jeremiah 18 and claim that the Jewish worldview that Paul was speaking from therefore justifies any seeming absolute unconditional hatred of God. Moreover, regarding this statement:

"If God foreknows something and has it within His power to prevent it (both of which are fundamental to the characteristics and nature of God) then of necessity He is the primary cause of its occurance by means of permissive will."

This seems to misunderstand the definition of knowledge. God foreknows what we know; what we know can only be if it is based on something true, for knowledge logically follows actualization. This "trueness" comes about through us; this God simply foreknows. He does not forecause.

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Woody said:
I could explain it, but I'll refrain. The fact that your book resembles Shank is utterly irrevelant. Two wrongs don't make a right! If readers choose to believe you and Shank, over Jesus & Paul, then that is not my concern; it is between themselves and Jesus.

Hi, Woody. I can show you how Jesus and Paul did not believe in OSAS. So I would gently, and respectfully, suggest that the REAL choice is between you, and Jesus & Paul...

I see the Christian experience reduced to an assembly line salvation, a number of self-help steps. Do this, do that "invite" Christ here and there, "accept" Him, tithe, believe you are saved PMA, etc. Most now have a Christian experience whereby they are either smarter or simply luckier than the poor fools who don't believe because they have "made the right choice."

But it IS a choice, Woody. "Those who believe are not judged; but those who DO not believe ('will not' in Jn5:40), have been judged already, BECAUSE they have not believed." Those are JESUS' words, not Ben's...

Instead, we have the multituldes who swagger up, inform the Lord that He is now "acceptable" in their sight. Where is the flesh trembling fear in the saint like that spoken about in the Psalms?

And one who SWAGGERS UP to INFORM the Lord of his cleanliness, is not a saved one. It is a filthy SINNER, who RECOGNIZES and ACKNOWLEDGES his sinfulness, who hurls himself broken and repentant at the foot of the Cross --- only HE can be saved. "Unless you are HUMBLED AS A CHILD you cannot inherit Heaven." Mt18:3-4 It is not the SWAGGERING PRIDEFUL that God receives, but those with GUILT and SHAME; who bow before Him in surrender and repentance, begging Him for forgiveness and salvation. Do you not agree with this?

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Fru said:
Even if that is true, that fact does not give any more legitimacy to your view. Rest assured, neither you nor Shank are the first to take that approach to Scripture.

You mean there are others who have the SAME UNDERSTANDING??? Hmmm...

Since you've provided a quote, I assume you'll provide a link to that quote.

I'm not motivated to do that; it was days ago, if not weeks; on a dial-up it would take me hours; one of you know that you said it, it is easiest for him to find it.

It appears as though you don't actually READ our posts, you just skim them to determine whether or not we agree with you. Do you have any real response to what I gave you on Heb 10 or 12? Explanations have been given. Please SHOW ME why these explanations are insufficient.

I do read them; RNMom said that Heb10:29 stated "blood by which JESUS was sanctified" --- the Greek professor affirmed my understanding that it was the FORMER BELIEVER who was sanctified. He also affirmed my take on "epignosis" (10:26), they WERE saved but "continue sinning willfully" and become unsaved.

Regardless of the passage, if it REFUTES "PE", one of four "tacks" must be pursued:
1. They weren't SAVED in the FIRST place
2. They didn't really FALL.
3. Hyperbole, not a real incident; fatherly advice to "keep us straight" (as if we could NOT,,,)
4. Dismiss the whole letter through some "device", dispensationism or written to ISRAEL and not MODERN CHRISTANS, etc.

I replied to you, that they WERE saved. This is a reall warning showing that they who DID fall and scorn Jesus, are in trouble. All of Hebrews says that; ch2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12 especially.

In the times you have said such thing, you have either said that He compelled or forced their SALVATION (NOT their regeneration), or implied it with your use of regeneration. You must understand that there appears to be a difference between your concept of regeneration and ours. Regeneration, though inextricably tied to salvation, is not in and of itself salvation. Your position appears to be that regeneration refers to salvation itself (the whole process) or that it proceeds FROM faith (logically following it).

So you are creating a false dilemma here whereby you are stating (and we are agreeing) that God unilaterally regenerates men (which we see happening BEFORE faith), then complaining when we object to statements about oru believing that God forces faith upon men.

If God IMPOSES REGENERATION on men, how many of those regenerated then have saving faith? 100%, right? And how many of those UNREGENERATED, ever have saving faith? 0%, right? If the instilling of REGENERATED HEARTS is what UNAVOIDABLY gives rise to SAVING FAITH, then how is the saving faith not JUST as imposed as the REGENERATION?

Besides, you (meaning "you Predestined-Electionists) cannot deny that the ROCKY, BELIEVED (Lk8:13). Which leaves you in a QUANDRY; you cannot say "they weren't REALLY saved", because Jesus said "they RECEIVED it with JOY and BELIEVED". Nothing in Jesus' words HINTS that theirs was a FALSE belief, or an UNSAVED belief. But then by temptation/persecution/affliction they FELL AWAY, didn't they? I would think this would be a pretty major road-block to PE...

Horsepuckey, Ben. You have jumped through more hoops than a circus tiger to AVOID 'simply reading at FACE VALUE' Acts 13:48. And I don't care if it's one out of a thousand, I will look at each one.

Horses play hockey? I didn't know that.

Do you think Acts 13:48 PROVES predestination?

It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who WERE APPOINTED, who WERE RANGED. They were appointed unto or "ranged on the side of" eternal life BEFORE they believed. They were revealed as the subjects of God's grace by the stand they took. That means the stand they took revealed what was already a reality. Ben, he is CRYSTAL CLEAR ON THIS MATTER. Do I have to diagram Robertson's sentences as well? It's plain English, Ben.

Then read the plain English of the OTHER sentence: "No evidence Luke meant ABSOLUTE DECREE of salvation". And while you're "diagramming Robertson's sentence", then recognize this:
TETAGMENOI = REVEALED-AS-SUBJECTS-OF-GOD'S-GRACE
And WHAT was it that REVEALED THEM AS SUBJECTS of His grace? The STAND THEY TOOK...

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Did Herod or Pilate have a choice? They were gathered together to do the will of God. How long will you avoid this question? Is it because you know you cannot answer or just haven't had enough time to come up with an answer yet?

Yes they had a choice. Did Pharaoh have a choice? Did GOD harden Pharaoh's heart, or did Pharaoh harden his OWN HEART? (Ex10:1, 9:34)

Did JUDAS have a choice? According to Jesus, he DID (Jn6:70)

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Are you equating that since the spiritually dead have physical life, they can "choose" to have spiritual life?

Teach me why (in your belief) Jesus wasted so much time berating the REPROBATE (which according to PE, they CANNOT believe)? If they CANNOT choose to believe in Jesus, why did He spend much time condemning them for NOT CHOOSING HIM?

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

Woody said:
My doctrine is that of the historic church and those great Predestinarian Reformers:
Jesus
Paul & the Apostles

Ha ha ha!!!

JESUS:
"You WILL NOT come to Me that you maye have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek man's glory and not God's? You don't even bleieve Moses, so how will you believe Me?" Jn5:39-47

"Simon --- satan has demaned permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, THAT YOUR FAITH MAY NOT FAIL; and once youhave turned again, strengthen your brothers." JESUS -- Lk22:31-32

"Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast off as a branch ...and burned." Jn15:2-6

"YOU aren't leaving TOO, are you? Didn't I chose you, the TWELVE, and ONE of you IS a devil?" Jn6:66-70

PAUL:
"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. PAUL --1Corinthians 9:27

2Corinthians 11:3-4: “I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

“Hymenaeus and Philetus have wandered away from the truth.” 1Timothy 2:17

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Tim 4:1-6:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

"do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

“TEST YOURSELVES to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you  unless indeed you FAIL-THE-TEST?” 2Cor13:5

PETER:
"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

“For if, after having escaped the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the second state is worse than the first; far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN, to TURN AWAY FROM the holy commandment handed to them." 2Pet2:20-22

JAMES:
"My brethren, if any of YOU strays from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from DEATH, and covered a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

"Each is tempted when he is enticed and carried away by his own lusts; then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death; DO NOT BE DECEIVED BELOVED BRETHREN." Jms1:14-16

JOHN:
"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (See 1Jn5:12-13)

JUDE:
"Building yourselves in your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life." 21

How is it that "Jesus Paul and the Apostles" all were "predesinted-electionists"?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jan 17, 2004

QUOTE=Ben johnson Ha ha ha!!!

JESUS:
"You WILL NOT come to Me that you maye have life. How can you believe, WHEN you seek man's glory and not God's? You don't even bleieve Moses, so how will you believe Me?" Jn5:39-47

"Simon --- satan has demaned permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, THAT YOUR FAITH MAY NOT FAIL; and once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." JESUS -- Lk22:31-32

1 cor 10:13 There hath no tempation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above ye are able; but will with tempation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

"Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast off as a branch ...and burned." Jn15:2-6

1 cor 3:15 If any man's [good]work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

"YOU aren't leaving TOO, are you? Didn't I chose you, the TWELVE, and ONE of you IS a devil?" Jn6:66-70

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, there fore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, exept it were given unto him of my Father.

PAUL:
"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. PAUL --1Corinthians 9:27

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

2Corinthians 11:3-4: I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

1 cor 10:13.....again

. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander " 1Timothy 1:18-20

why so they can experience eternal life right know because are God is Longsuffering ....2 peter2:18-22, 3:9 yet we are suppose to be living sacrifices romans 12:1, 1 cor 7:20-24 but this is were free will comes in But the Father has promised Hebrews 12:3-12 if not living up to standards

Hymenaeus and Philetus have wandered away from the truth. 1Timothy 2:17

NO SUCH VERSES 1 tim 2:1-15

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Tim 4:1-6:

still saved John 10:28-29 .....again

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

"do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

TEST YOURSELVES to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you  unless indeed you FAIL-THE-TEST? 2Cor13:5

1 cor 3:15...again

PETER:
"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

For if, after having escaped the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the second state is worse than the first; far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN, to TURN AWAY FROM the holy commandment handed to them." 2Pet2:20-22

JAMES:
"My brethren, if any of YOU strays from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from DEATH, and covered a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

"Each is tempted when he is enticed and carried away by his own lusts; then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death; DO NOT BE DECEIVED BELOVED BRETHREN." Jms1:14-16

Hebrews 12:3-12 God will punish His sons so that they will excape His wrath

JOHN:
"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (See 1Jn5:12-13)

1 john 1:8-10 ....Ye will sin but You can confess them not for my sake but for yours so that you correct your way of thinking....

JUDE:
"Building yourselves in your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life." 21

How is it that "Jesus Paul and the Apostles" all were "predesinted-electionists"?

One verse is talking about......God's point of view.....god soverignity
Man's point of view ....Man's free will

both are true ...Man depravity is also true

can you bring them together?

Man has two will's on this earth Gal 5:17-23 till we are completely saved at the rapture 1thes 5:23

quit preaching Ben and start looking better at the whole sum of the bible or less you teach another Jesus

nobdysfool · Jan 17, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Teach me why (in your belief) Jesus wasted so much time berating the REPROBATE (which according to PE, they CANNOT believe)? If they CANNOT choose to believe in Jesus, why did He spend much time condemning them for NOT CHOOSING HIM?

Well, firstly, He was speaking to Jews, who prided themselves on being God's Chosen People, and He was pointing out to them that if they were truly of the Chosen People, they would recognize and believe in Him. That is made evident in His conversation with Nicodemus, when Jesus asks him, "You're a teacher in Israel and you don't know this?", speaking of being born again. The Gospel is in the OT scriptures, in toto. A lot of Jesus' most cutting words were reserved for the Scribes and Pharisees, the religious elite of their day. He poked huge holes in their facade of "religious correctness", showing them to be the hypocrites that they were. They had chosen to be that way, they cultivated their hypocrisy, and Jesus had every right to condemn them for it. The fact that instead of repenting when Jesus revealed their hypocrisy, they all the more tried to silence Him, marked them as reprobate, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Jesus just brought that out in them, and brought it to the front for all to see. He had every right to berate them for their unbelief!!

You apparently have this skewed idea of Jesus as being all-loving, all the time, pining away for the love of His creation, willing to do anything to get them to love Him, as though He felt a loss within Himself, a loss that could only be filled by the love of mankind. You paint God as NEEDING man, and then you impose a false idea of "fairness" on Him, where He cannot just arbitrarily do as He Wills with that which He created, but must "give man a chance" to be saved. You totally ignore the full import of Adam's Fall, and refuse to see man as utterly incapable of believing savingly, but only handicapped and crippled morally, just needing "help" to believe. This is a serious error, Ben.

You don't want to focus on the depravity of man, you want to focus on the love of God, and would rather believe that "love conquers all" than acknowledge that you can't even draw breath without God's prior enabling. You want to reserve the right to man to choose or not choose, based on this twisted idea that man MUST make the choice FIRST, or God would be coercive, forcing and violating the will of man, as though that were the highest crime in the universe. It's no wonder you rail against Predestination and Election! That doctrine threatens your autonomy, or so you think. At the root of your opposition is your own selfish will, declaring a toned-down version of the 5 "I wills" of Lucifer. You want to be able to take at least some credit for your salvation, forgetting that God will not share HIs Glory with another. Your theology had God doing almost all the work, but making Him dependent on man's choice to finish it. In that way, you steal just a little bit of Glory from God. The cry of the Arminian is always, "God saved me, and I helped!"

Do Christians have a responsibility to walk in their salvation, and to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of the Lord? Absolutely! No one is denying that! But, you are not willing to acknowledge that it is God who ENABLES the Christian to do so. You have over and over again tried to establish that the Christian must do it, by their own will, by their own power. You want to stress that so much, that you will deny God's Sovereignty, and God's Holy Spirit, as having anything more than a supportive role. It's all about the man. You deny God's ability to keep His Saints, to keep and enable them to endure, to perservere, to present them blameless before Himself. You place all of that upon man. Go back and look over your posts, Ben. Your unreasoned hatred of Predestination and Election forces you to put all of the deciding and enabling power in the hands of man, from choosing Christ all the way to the end. That is the gospel you preach. It is not the Gospel of Jesus.

I'm sorry to come on so strong about this, but I am tired of the constant wrangling, the twisting of scriptures with parapharasing, the twisting of other people's words with paraphrasing, and the unteachable spirit you exhibit. You don't understand Predestination and Election, no matter how much you may think you do. And you will not countenance anyone trying to enlighten you or the over ten thousand observers on this thread. You try to shout it down every time. "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up", is your attitude.

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

ABIC said:
1 cor 10:13 There hath no tempation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above ye are able; but will with tempation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

DOes God 100% keep us from temptation? Or does He only OFFER the escape, and we can ESCAPE or FALL? What does James1:14-16 say? That "tempted by our OWN LUST, lust brings sin, sin brings death ("thanatos"0; DO NOT BE DECEIVED beloved brethren.

Jude says "God is ABLE to keep us and to make us stand" (24), but "we keep OURSELVES in the love of God" (21)...

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, there fore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, exept it were given unto him of my Father.

There is ONE GROUP who will be "lifted up".

• Those God has given Jesus 6:39
• Those who SEE Jesus and BELIEVE 6:40
• Those who are DRAWN to God 6:44
• Those who receive communion 6:54

These ideas are PARALLEL, and exist TOGETHER; none exists without any other. There are NONE who are given to Jesus, who ARE NOT believers --- there is no "given-to-Jesus-and-THEN-believe"...

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

How does this contradict Paul "falling short himself"? No ONE can harpazo-force YOU away from His hand --- how does this preclude we OURSELVES falling from unbelief?

1 cor 10:13.....again

1Cor10:12"Let he who thinks he STAND, take heed lest he FALL." Which part of this sounds INSINCERE? Somehow that becomes "you can't REALLY fall"?

. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

why so they can experience eternal life right know because are God is Longsuffering ....2 peter2:18-22, 3:9 yet we are suppose to be living sacrifices romans 12:1, 1 cor 7:20-24 but this is were free will comes in But the Father has promised Hebrews 12:3-12 if not living up to standards

Is there any reason to think that Hymenaeus and Philetus and Alexander were NOT saved? How can one "suffer shipwreck of the faith" and "wander away from the truth", if one has never DWELT in faith-truth?

“Hymenaeus and Philetus have wandered away from the truth.” 1Timothy 2:17

NO SUCH VERSES 1 tim 2:1-15

Ye'r right; I goofed. :o 2Tim1:17-18

still saved John 10:28-29 .....again

Really. One can be "fallen-away-from-faith, deceived by deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines, seared in their own consciences, but STILL SAVED." Do you really believe that, ABIC?

1 cor 3:15...again

Vs11 says "no other foundation but Jesus"; vs 13 says "fire will test each man's work". 1Pet1:6-7 says: "you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than perishable gold, EVEN THOUGH TESTED BY FIRE, may be FOUND to RESULT in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ"/ Will you consider that Paul, in 1Cor3, is saying "trials will TEST your work, and if they are BURNED UP then you will LEARN to do BETTER works (saved through the fire of trails)"?

Hebrews 12:3-12 God will punish His sons so that they will excape His wrath

"BUT if you are WITHOUT discipline, of which ALL have become partakers, THEN you are illegitimate children and not sons." Heb12:8 Hmmm; all partake of discipline, but if you HAVE NOT discipline, you are NOT sons. Could this possibly mean, "If you REJECT His discipline THEN you are NOT SAVED"??? (Same chapter, 12:25; DO NOT REFUSE HIM...)

1 john 1:8-10 ....Ye will sin but You can confess them not for my sake but for yours so that you correct your way of thinking....

If one "goes too far and does not abide in Jesus' teachings", will he still be "confessing/repenting"???

One verse is talking about......God's point of view.....god soverignity
Man's point of view ....Man's free will

both are true ...Man depravity is also true

can you bring them together?

Man has two will's on this earth Gal 5:17-23 till we are completely saved at the rapture 1thes 5:23

God's sovereign will never forces itself against man's rebellion. Man can either RECEIVE JESUS, or DISBELIEVE; those who believe are saved, those who disbelieve are condemned already --- because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

quit preaching Ben and start looking better at the whole sum of the bible or lest you teach another Jesus

Well, I've responded to everything you've said, and with Scripture; how am I "teaching another Jesus"?

Ben johnson · Jan 17, 2004

NBF said:
Well, firstly, He was speaking to Jews, who prided themselves on being God's Chosen People, and He was pointing out to them that if they were truly of the Chosen People, they would recognize and believe in Him. That is made evident in His conversation with Nicodemus, when Jesus asks him, "You're a teacher in Israel and you don't know this?", speaking of being born again. The Gospel is in the OT scriptures, in toto. A lot of Jesus' most cutting words were reserved for the Scribes and Pharisees, the religious elite of their day. He poked huge holes in their facade of "religious correctness", showing them to be the hypocrites that they were. They had chosen to be that way, they cultivated their hypocrisy, and Jesus had every right to condemn them for it. The fact that instead of repenting when Jesus revealed their hypocrisy, they all the more tried to silence Him, marked them as reprobate, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Jesus just brought that out in them, and brought it to the front for all to see. He had every right to berate them for their unbelief!!

In all of His rebuking, is there ANYTHING that even HINTS they "cannot repent"? The theme that you are not understanding, is their "free will to follow Him, or not". Romans9, the "oft-touted-supposedly-predestinary-chapter), ends with this: "Israel did not arrive at that law. WHY? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (Jesus)." Do you see the clarity? It does NOT say "because God had not chosen them", it says "because they rejected grace and pursued works."

You apparently have this skewed idea of Jesus as being all-loving, all the time, pining away for the love of His creation, willing to do anything to get them to love Him, as though He felt a loss within Himself, a loss that could only be filled by the love of mankind. You paint God as NEEDING man, and then you impose a false idea of "fairness" on Him, where He cannot just arbitrarily do as He Wills with that which He created, but must "give man a chance" to be saved. You totally ignore the full import of Adam's Fall, and refuse to see man as utterly incapable of believing savingly, but only handicapped and crippled morally, just needing "help" to believe. This is a serious error, Ben.

Jesus was willing to DIE; that "whosoever believes, should not perish but have eternal life; for Jesus did not come to judge the world, but so that the WORLD might be SAVED through Him."

This is the theme throughout Scripture, NBF; salvation to all who WILL believe. Solely because of His love for us.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. YOU are My friends, IF you do what I command you." Jn15:13-14

Clarity, NBF; salvation to the world, IF they believe and follow Him.

Do Christians have a responsibility to walk in their salvation, and to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of the Lord? Absolutely! No one is denying that! But, you are not willing to acknowledge that it is God who ENABLES the Christian to do so. You have over and over again tried to establish that the Christian must do it, by their own will, by their own power. You want to stress that so much, that you will deny God's Sovereignty, and God's Holy Spirit, as having anything more than a supportive role. It's all about the man. You deny God's ability to keep His Saints, to keep and enable them to endure, to perservere, to present them blameless before Himself. You place all of that upon man. Go back and look over your posts, Ben. Your unreasoned hatred of Predestination and Election forces you to put all of the deciding and enabling power in the hands of man, from choosing Christ all the way to the end. That is the gospel you preach. It is not the Gospel of Jesus.

RESPONSIBILITY? How can an ELECT, do anything BUT "walk in salvation"? You said yourself, "a regenerated heart cannot be unregenerated, and gives rise invariably (unavoidably) to belief/perseverance". Predestined-election is a paradigm that presents God as TWO-FACED; sarcastic and "smart-alecky" even. First God enables only a FEW to believe, and they cannot BUT believe; then Jesus spends time rebuking the UNBELIEVERS who are unavoidably followiing their UNELECTED HEARTS; He spends much time also admonishing the ELECT towards righteousness, as if they had a CHOICE in whether to be righteous or not. Do I HATE "Predestination"? I cannot abide anything that conflicts Scripture, NBF; it is not so much hatred I feel towards error, but love I have for the truth. Rather than DENYING God's ability to "keep us", I affirm it --- but equally understand that it works THROUGH our faith, BY our belief. We are "kept by the power of God for salvation, THROUGH FAITH". I have shown you that "salvic-faith" is NOT "instilled by God". You yourself recognize that Eph2:8 does NOT say "salvic-faith-is-from-God". Nowhere does Scripture say that.

I'm sorry to come on so strong about this, but I am tired of the constant wrangling, the twisting of scriptures with parapharasing, the twisting of other people's words with paraphrasing, and the unteachable spirit you exhibit. You don't understand Predestination and Election, no matter how much you may think you do. And you will not countenance anyone trying to enlighten you or the over ten thousand observers on this thread. You try to shout it down every time. "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up", is your attitude.

It would be nice if the "wrangling" did have an end --- I agree. Predestined-Election asserts that "no TRUE saved can BECOME unsaved". PE's will not deal with the Scriptures that speak of "saved-becoming-unbelievers" --- because they cannot. The end of the wrangling will happen when these passages are confronted --- and recognized that they cannot be filtered, interpreted, explained, changed.

Until then, these discussions ARE useful; for there are many "LURKERS", who read these posts. I hope and pray that each of them reads WITH Bible in hand; looking up the verses for themselves.

The Bible isn't very complicated; it was written to be UNDERSTOOD.

Jesus came to save the world; all who WILL believe. This is the clarity of the Gospel...

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jan 17, 2004

Ben Johnson ignores my post..

ha ha ha

CCWoody · Jan 17, 2004

Ben johnson said:
What about Judas? Was his betrayal, PRE-ORDAINED? Do you think Jesus would not have been crucified, if NOT for Judas' betrayal??? ForeKNOWE, is not to foreCAUSE.

It is absurdly easy to demonstrate that the Lord is the FIRST cause of all things. That is not to say that ForeKnow = ForeCAUSE. It is simply a statement that God did not turn himself temporarily blind when creating.

His foreknowledge is a planning faculty.

If that makes me, as Chappie says, sound like someone is behind me pulling my strings like I am some kind of programmed "Chatty Cathy," then I can live with that. Such characterizations are usually made by people who know that they cannot refute what is being presented so they resort to a kind of Ad Hominem against them.

nobdysfool · Jan 17, 2004

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Ben Johnson ignores my post..

ha ha ha

Join the club...He turns every reply into a rant against Predestination and Election, and misses the other points. He really has a hard time with God being Absolute Sovereign, and with Total Depravity. He keeps ducking the Depravity question. He's playing to the larger audience.

Chappie · Jan 17, 2004

CCWoody said:
Evidently, Chappie was not so impressed. Perhaps I may wade through his post and see if there is something with which I'd care to respond.

But, I'd rather be less insightful. I am merely drawing upon personal experience of being held captive in the church of Pelagius. I was recently subjected to a long campaign where a major selling point was that I get to give money so that I could later boast about what I had accomplished. Needless to say, I passed on the "opportunity."

In the mainstream denominations in which I have attended (Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, non-denom former AOG) I have had the pleasure of the following heresies taught from the pulpit of these Arminian/ Pelagian churches:

Open Theism.

open Pelagianism.

The denial that the scriptures are "God breathed."

Baptism saves.

etc. (I'm sure I have forgotten some)

I won't even bother to mention the sea of individual heresies, among which "all you have to do is say the words and you are saved" has to be one of my favorites. The actual disregard for sound doctrine in the church is staggering.

I have personally witnessed a boy being singled out in front of an audience and then brow beaten that his confession was real. Instead of taking him off privately and reading the many promises of the scriptures, he was nearly assaulted into believing that another person's faith in his "experiences" were correct.

I have been told that Mormons are saved because the confess and believe in the name of Jesus.

I have been told that anyone who never gets the gospel preached to them will be in heaven. After all, they "couldn't reject it" so it's not their fault. Apart from that being so contrary to the Bible that it could actually be ragarded as a depraved indifference kind of hate against the non-believers, it actually is a kind of attitude which stifles and kills missionary work. After all, it is better to not give them the opportunity to reject the gospel and "lose their salvation." And it was told to me by a Methodist pastor. It is no wonder that we Calvinists still lead the world in mission efforts among the "Protestants" even if we are a small minority.

Perhaps you will remember the mother who drowned her kids in the bath tub a few years ago in my home state of Texas. One of her motivations was that she didn't want them to grow up and "reject Jesus." So, she killed them as a means of preventing them from losing their salvation in a sick pervision of the false teaching of "age of accountibility."

Where ever is it taught anymore that the Lord has things perfectly under control? You certainly won't find it in the garden variety church. They preach "free will" over the Sovereignty of God.

My gospel is not the "Jesus-on-a-rope" Soap gospel which I recently read.

We have a glorious Gospel, but there's only one difficulty. To be effective it has to be applied. A fellow once asked a minister, "If your Gospel is so great, why isn't everyone a Christian?" The pastor responded, "If soap is so good, why isn't everyone clean?" Does the fact of dirty people testify against the value of soap? No. It works, but you have to apply it. ~ Chuck Smith

Salvation is a bit more profound.

(OK, so I mentioned a few things.)

In my personal experience, I have never shaken the hand of a confessing TULIP guy. And, I never even knew I was a Reformer until I met them online. Then, I figured out that I was not the wierdo in church. My doctrine is not that which is commonly confessed. My doctrine is that of the historic church and those great Predestinarian Reformers:

Jesus

Paul & the Apostles

Augustine

Wycliffe

Tyndale

Luther

Calvin

etc. etc. etc.

Finney "excitments" might impress some but I would rather be mute in ignorance like the heathen than spout the nonsense which is widely regarded as "spiritual."

My experience comes at a price. And, I am thankful that the vast majority of my doctrinally sound brethren have not had to endure it.

(It's good to be back.....)

It is with a sad heart that I admit that what you are saying is true, I have witnessed practically every occurrence that you mentioned. Hence my signature.

Still, running from one heresy to another is not the answer. There is no perfect Church, if there were then I would immediately transfer my membership there. But then it would not be perfect any more. There are no doctrines taught today that does not have some untruth and traditions as baggage.

My problem with reformed theology is that, for me at least, it is one of the worst alternatives that one can run to. Still the heresies that you mentioned are prevalent in one form or another in most of the church today, and they will stay there as long as good men, such as yourself, would rather switch than fight. I say, A good man such as yourself, because God has shown you these heresies.

Perhaps you should have stood and fought rather than run. God never told us that it would be easy, was it too difficult for you to stay and fight. Calvinism is not the answer to your dellima. Under the circumstances that you left, I am not surprised that you took refuge in reformed theology. Still, you simply jumped out of the frying pan into the fire You found Calvinism while on the run.

Turning to reformed theology and thinking that you have found the answer to all that is wrong in the church is not a reasonable conclusion. If you were still doing your own thinking, there would be much to debate and contend with within the ranks of reformed theology.

I am not trying to capsulize your life and tell you who and what you are. These are simply my impressions after reading your post. It is up to you to assign value to them, the frying pan or the fire. Only you can make that decision.

You suggest that freewill trumps the sovereignty of God. If for just a moment you would open yourself up to the reality of how it is really taught you would know better.

Freewill is not bound by your conclusions that it usurps God's sovereignty, and I believe that you know it. It can stand equally alongside election as part and parcell of God's plan of salvation if that is what God chose to do. God could have chosen to do things either way, and his sovereignty would still stand unchallenged. The only intelligent thing that you can say is, based on my understanding; it is not a part of God's plan of salvation..

God loves you, I dont care if you are a saint or a sinner, God loves you.

CCWoody · Jan 17, 2004

Ben johnson said:
Hi, Woody. I can show you how Jesus and Paul did not believe in OSAS. So I would gently, and respectfully, suggest that the REAL choice is between you, and Jesus & Paul...

True. Both Jesus and Paul believed and taught the eternal election by the Father of the saints.

Ben johnson said:
But it IS a choice, Woody. "Those who believe are not judged; but those who DO not believe ('will not' in Jn5:40), have been judged already, BECAUSE they have not believed." Those are JESUS' words, not Ben's...

Perhaps the next time you decide to write a book "refuting" Calvinism, it might be good to actually learn what we Calvinists believe. It is simply a helpful suggestion since I notice that you seem to believe that you are actually arguing against Calvinism by using that little word "choice."

Hopefully, despite the fact that you ignored my advise to quit changing the words of Scripture, you will heed this advice.

Here, nice guy that I am, I'll get you started in your studies with a little Augustine:

"But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo

predestination

Active Member

The original! Accept no substitutes!

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Legend

Legend

True love waits in haunted attics

Legend

Legend

Legend

Legend

Legend

Well-Known Member

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Legend

Legend

Well-Known Member

Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Active Member

Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency