Loren T.,
Hello Loren
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He's talking about Israel.]
Yes...he has been explaining what happened to Israel since chapter9 began;
but notice this portion-
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Paul explains that God has made individual choice among the chosen nation...in other words, not every physical Israelite is found in the promised seed. and to make matters worse...he is going to show that God finds some of the elect seed among the previously non covenanted gentiles...see the following;
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people,
which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people;
there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Notice in verse 27 the reference is to individual salvation
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"see Jeremiah 18:6 He said, "Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.]
Yes....the potter has the freedom to elect and save a multitude of His own choosing...You were correct to reference jer 18...it was language they should have immediately known.
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What is is view are the different uses God has for people.]
Sorry, that is an anti cal falsehood put forth to divert away from the biblical truth....this is a recent novelty among the connect 316 people.
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He does not mold people only to smash them. The verses in Romans actually show us that we all have worth to God. The pots fit for destruction are those that fit themselves for destruction by disobedience]
utside of Christ all men are fitted to destruction, that is why it is called mercy when God elects and saves His sheep.
[And that person talking back to God in Romans 9 is not the reader.
This is something I didn't immediately get about Romans 9, which really made me appreciate Paul's subtle way of wording things, or maybe it's not so subtle, but I never saw it for a long time.
"19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?"
Paul is using a literary device where he is arguing against an unseen opponent, in this case, a hardened Jew who is mad at God for using Israel's rebellion to spread the gospel to the gentile dogs. See Romans 3 for a parallel chapter, that is a bit easier to understand.]
agreed
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But, sometimes I have wondered if Paul wasn't given a glimpse of how people would misuse Romans 9 to insist God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and some for hell. Because he puts a subtle pun in here that not only proves the objecter wrong, it proves the determinist reader wrong too.]
Much to the contrary my friend, Paul's argument makes no sense if individual election to salvation among the remnant of Israel and the elect Gentiles is not in view...WHICH IT CLEARLY IS.
tHIS PASSAGE IS TO ANSWER PERSONS SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO AVOID THE POTTERS FREEDOM AT ALL COST.
[Once we know the objector is not us (unless we are mad at God for using our sin to save others we can see the objector is also wrong in what he says about us not being able to resist God's will.]
You are the objector
[And this means, the one who believes in limited election is also wrong, because he thinks everything is predestined, therefore everything is God's will.]
First off everyone limits the atonement....Do you believe satan can be saved, when there is no redemption for fallen angels?
Individual election to salvation is the biblical teaching flat out...
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But what does Paul say: "But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?"]
That is to the non cal who hates these teachings...
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In one sentence, Paul confirms that we are, indeed, able to talk back to God, that we CAN resist God's will]
tell that to King Nebuchadrezzar when he was eating grass for 7 years,lol...or Jonah when he did not want to go to Ninevah...lol
[and that God is not controlling everything we do.]
We do what we do and are fully responsible for our actions, nevertheless here is the 1689 cof on this matter;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
(
Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
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Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
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1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
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2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
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Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
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1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
(
1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
[And he tells the objector that he has no right to tell God who and how he can save and who he can't. Romans is about God's love and mercy being expanded by the cross to reach whosoever will. Those who think it's about limited atonement have it exactly backwards, which is actually quite sad. If they are right, then the rebellious objector is also right, God should not blame us for anything. But, thank God, they aren't!]
One of us has it exactly backwards, and I know who it is...lol.