Predestination

[Loren T.]

It sounds that way to those who have and serve the idol of the supposed free will of the creature....It is the language of scripture that God has mercy on who He will have mercy on.
You hate that truth....that is between you and God.

Again, no answers, no explaining of the Word, just assertions. The lie I hate is that God is unjust in his dealings with men. Who God has mercy on is not unconditional, in fact that statement is taken from a passage where God's interaction with men decides who he will have mercy on. This is why we don't read the Bible in sound bites, we take the it as a whole instead of picking out the bits that we have been taught by men to understand a certain way. You take a passage of scripture where God deals with Moses as a friend and listens to Moses and changes his mind, and you try to make it deterministic. What a distortion.

1Then the Lord said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ 2I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”

4When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. 5For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’ ” 6So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.

The Tent of Meeting

7Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the “tent of meeting.” Anyone inquiring of the Lord would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp. 8And whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose and stood at the entrances to their tents, watching Moses until he entered the tent. 9As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the Lord spoke with Moses. 10Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Moses and the Glory of the Lord

12Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

 

[Dave L]

Free Will misrepresents God. It depicts God as a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they do not "say uncle" or whatever act of the will it takes to appease him. And it also depicts God as buying people off promising rewards and perks if they "choose" to comply.

But this is not the God of the bible. Who saves people who cannot save themselves in his mercy. Taking the punishment owed to them upon his own-self in Christ on the cross.

 

[Loren T.]

Free Will misrepresents God. It depicts God as a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they do not "say uncle" or whatever act of the will it takes to appease him. And it also depicts God as buying people off promising rewards and perks if they "choose" to comply.

But this is not the God of the bible. Who saves people who cannot save themselves in his mercy. Taking the punishment owed to them upon his own-self in Christ on the cross.

Determinism makes God into a monster who tortures people who he created with the sole person of tormenting them, knowing he never intended to give them the opportunity to seek him. This is not the God of the Bible, who died once for all, so that people who could never save themselves would have the option of throwing themselves on his mercy, receiving pardon, and spending eternity with him.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Determinism makes God into a monster who tortures people who he created with the sole person of tormenting them, knowing he never intended to give them the opportunity to seek him. This is not the God of the Bible, who died once for all, so that people who could never save themselves would have the option of throwing themselves on his mercy, receiving pardon, and spending eternity with him.

Determinism is proven with the first line in Scripture: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth". Determinism is proven in the creation of man, in God breathing life into man. For all the railing against determinism, it is railing against the sovereignty of God, the God who has mercy on whom He will.

 

[Bobber]

Free Will misrepresents God. It depicts God as a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they do not "say uncle" or whatever act of the will it takes to appease him. And it also depicts God as buying people off promising rewards and perks if they "choose" to comply.

But this is not the God of the bible. Who saves people who cannot save themselves in his mercy. Taking the punishment owed to them upon his own-self in Christ on the cross.

So if you're not a Calvinists like you claimed earlier what are you? Are you Reformed? You know the saying if it walks like a duck.....

 

[Dave L]

So if you're not a Calvinists like you claimed earlier what are you? Are you Reformed? You know the saying if it walks like a duck.....

I'm Christian only. I share beliefs with many denominations.

 

[Dave L]

Determinism makes God into a monster who tortures people who he created with the sole person of tormenting them, knowing he never intended to give them the opportunity to seek him. This is not the God of the Bible, who died once for all, so that people who could never save themselves would have the option of throwing themselves on his mercy, receiving pardon, and spending eternity with him.

Careful, a wrong understanding of God can have disastrous results.

 

[Loren T.]

Careful, a wrong understanding of God can have disastrous results.

I think you should heed your own warning. In your theology, a wrong understanding would not matter, because you can only understand what God irresistibly causes you to understand. But here in the real world, a wrong understanding can harm your relationship with God by making you believe he is something he is not. BTW, the fruit of the spirit is faithfulness, not faith. Two different things.

 

[Dave L]

I think you should heed your own warning. In your theology, a wrong understanding would not matter, because you can only understand what God irresistibly causes you to understand. But here in the real world, a wrong understanding can harm your relationship with God by making you believe he is something he is not. BTW, the fruit of the spirit is faithfulness, not faith. Two different things.

Free Will misrepresents God. It also converts the gospel into law. And bases salvation on self-righteousness. It denies that faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and makes it a work of the flesh.

 

[Loren T.]

Free Will misrepresents God. It also converts the gospel into law. And bases salvation on self-righteousness. It denies that faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and makes it a work of the flesh.

Seriously? If someone is proud that they were humble enough to fall on God s mercy, then that person would be self righteous. But being proud of your humility is an oxymoron. We give God all the credit for our salvation. And BTW, before Augustine, the students of the apostles students all believed in free will. Were the Christians one generation removed from the apostles following a false religion?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Seriously? If someone is proud that they were humble enough to fall on God s mercy, then that person would be self righteous. But being proud of your humility is an oxymoron. We give God all the credit for our salvation. And BTW, before Augustine, the students of the apostles students all believed in free will. Were the Christians one generation removed from the apostles following a false religion?

There is not one verse that suggests "free will" exists...not one.

 

[Loren T.]

There is not one verse that suggests "free will" exists...not one.

Just the whole book. But a couple obvious ones are John 7:17 and Joshua 24:15.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Just the whole book. But a couple obvious ones are John 7:17 and Joshua 24:15.

neither verse says anything about free will,...it is not there. A person can choose without their will being free.
There is no verse speaking of mans will being free,because it does not exist.

 

[Loren T.]

A person can choose without their will being free.

Ummm...no. that would be only the illusion of choice. You make God into a liar.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"Loren T.,

[Again, no answers, no explaining of the Word, just assertions. The lie I hate is that God is unjust in his dealings with men. Who God has mercy on is not unconditional, in fact that statement is taken from a passage where God's interaction with men decides who he will have mercy on. ]

You do not understand the passage at all.God does not wait to see what man does....He already has chosen the objects of His mercy.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Ummm...no. that would be only the illusion of choice. You make God into a liar.

Stop speaking of God in such a profane manner.....choice and free will are two different things
you have no free will verse...so you try and substitute the word choose, or choice....nice try

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

There is not one verse that suggests "free will" exists...not one.

What is funny is that you have been asked several times to produce any such verse , you cannot even though you claim the bible is full of them...lol

not one verse...it is an invention of carnal philosophy

 

[OzSpen]

When you make salvation conditional it is no longer grace. You convert the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep in an attempt to save themselves.

I've provided Scriptures to support the biblical views I've expounded.

What's your response? Your opinion, which is what you gave us here. Not one Scripture to lead us to believe this is a biblical view.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes. But they cannot know God unless he reveals himself through the New Birth. They will only construct and worship idols, even giving them his name.

False again! God disagrees with your view (which came with no biblical support):

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20 NIV).​

 

[OzSpen]

In the greek....salvation is said to be....by ...or through faith...
NEVER,NEVER, BECAUSE OF FAITH...NEVER, NOT ONCE.
Not even in this bogus translation you are using...lol

Here you provide us with your opinion but without exegetical support.

Do you read Greek? Do you know Greek grammar to the point of being able to exegete NT Greek accurately?