Predestination

[RINO 72]

I'm sure there have been 30 thousand threads on this topic and I'm sure there will be 30 thousand more.Im a newbie and fear if I put it in the apologetics page, I would get a thousand questions launched back at me.I dont really want that,I wanna know what the everyday born again Christian thinks about predestination.I believe these are some key text that suggest God not only knows the future (which no one doubts I'm sure) but he selects who will be "elect".In fact, double PD suggest He also selects those who will be probate.
This all stemmed from reading Romans the other night and now there seems to be a good deal of cross references for these beliefs.

(It didnt let me post the scripture from Bible gateway because I dont have enough post,sorry but I'm sure this is basically old hat for most of you)

John 6:62-65
Ephesians 1-11
Romans 9
And there are many more
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know A little about Arminianism and Calvinism but would like to know more and is God the only being with free will? I really dont know what to think.

 

[Christownsme]

I'm sure there have been 30 thousand threads on this topic and I'm sure there will be 30 thousand more.Im a newbie and fear if I put it in the apologetics page, I would get a thousand questions launched back at me.I dont really want that,I wanna know what the everyday born again Christian thinks about predestination.I believe these are some key text that suggest God not only knows the future (which no one doubts I'm sure) but he selects who will be "elect".In fact, double PD suggest He also selects those who will be probate.
This all stemmed from reading Romans the other night and now there seems to be a good deal of cross references for these beliefs.

(It didnt let me post the scripture from Bible gateway because I dont have enough post,sorry but I'm sure this is basically old hat for most of you)

Predestination is based on the fact that Jesus died for all the world's sins. Everybody is supposed to go to heaven, but God foreknew who would reject the plan and His Son. Those who he foreknew would follow His Son are predestined to have Life eternal. God's ability to "foreknow" someone's decisions doesn't keep God from being true and loving that person enough to die for him, though. Even though Judas was prophesied to be the man of perdition, and the Lord knew it all along that Judas would not ever get to know Jesus as his savior, Jesus still acted true to His nature when He offered him the sop at the Last Supper, and called him friend when Judas was in the very act of betrayal. Nonetheless, Jesus knew what would happen to Judas, and Judas' decision not to have a personal relationship with Jesus. What anguish it must have caused Jesus to lose Judas!!

Just goes to show God's love for everybody in the world. Choosing to know the Lord is still an act of the will and a choice, but predestination is simply God's sovereign knowledge of who will make the right choice. And this doesn't keep God from continuing to love or bless everybody, or to continue giving such people more chances. Foreknowledge is strictly a God thing. No individual can judge or determine who will or won't make that decision for Christ. So what are we to do? Pray for our enemies, and hope all will turn to Christ, for we aren't God who knows the future.

 

[1watchman]

As was already stated here above, "predestination" is God's business. It and "election" all are part of the "foreknowledge" of God. He knows what you and I are going to do and what our end will be. He, therefore, may choose to intervene for our good and His purposes; even, use an evil one like the Pharoah with Israel in Moses' time.

- 1 Watchman

 

[miamited]

hi Rino,

Well, here's my understanding. When God speaks of predestination there are some cases where he is speaking of specific individual people. However, as regards those who will be saved, I don't agree that God is using the term intending that we understand that God picks this person and rejects another. By that I mean that God did not say in eternity past that I am choosing Ted McFarland to be saved. I find that the Scriptures speak of predestination in regards to those who will be saved in this way:

God has predestined in eternity past that whosoever believes in him will be saved.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[40creek]

This is a very interesting post. It lends itself to my own question as per predestination. As for God knowing who would reject Christ let me ask you this. The bible says God made some pottery for usefull things and others for destruction. That would lead me to believe it was a choice on Gods behalf. Please include this into the equation.

 

[served]

Thy will be done.

If you look back in history and think of all the events that had to take place...as an example GOD had to know the exact time, and place for JESUS. If things did not happen in their exact order would JESUS have had his exact disciples and even been crucified? God created good and evil, for purpose and for his will.

 

[40creek]

Thy will be done.

If you look back in history and think of all the events that had to take place...as an example GOD had to know the exact time, and place for JESUS. If things did not happen in their exact order would JESUS have had his exact disciples and even been crucified? God created good and evil, for purpose and for his will.

Very good point. I have thought of this. He has a divine plan and direction. Even hitler had a place in putting the order of things into the arrangment God needs to fullfill this plan. Every action has a reaction.

 

[bubleswing]

Predestination is based on the fact that Jesus died for all the world's sins. Everybody is supposed to go to heaven, but God foreknew who would reject the plan and His Son. Those who he foreknew would follow His Son are predestined to have Life eternal. God's ability to "foreknow" someone's decisions doesn't keep God from being true and loving that person enough to die for him, though. Even though Judas was prophesied to be the man of perdition, and the Lord knew it all along that Judas would not ever get to know Jesus as his savior, Jesus still acted true to His nature when He offered him the sop at the Last Supper, and called him friend when Judas was in the very act of betrayal. Nonetheless, Jesus knew what would happen to Judas, and Judas' decision not to have a personal relationship with Jesus. What anguish it must have caused Jesus to lose Judas!!

Just goes to show God's love for everybody in the world. Choosing to know the Lord is still an act of the will and a choice, but predestination is simply God's sovereign knowledge of who will make the right choice. And this doesn't keep God from continuing to love or bless everybody, or to continue giving such people more chances. Foreknowledge is strictly a God thing. No individual can judge or determine who will or won't make that decision for Christ. So what are we to do? Pray for our enemies, and hope all will turn to Christ, for we aren't God who knows the future.

Very helpful to me.Lord can foresee everything and knows who will reject Jesus as their Saviour,but still love everyone.He offer the eternal life for us unconditionally,but the choice is in our own hands.

 

[wayfaring man]

The concept of predestination and the concept of free will appear to be diametrically opposed to each other...and yet Scripture clearly speaks of both as being that which co-exist...which is rather paradoxical.

In an effort to consider them together we sometimes say things like, God predestined our free will so that we could choose life or death.

Or that God predestines there to be some who become one way or another ( honorable or dishonorable ), but lets us "fall into" the slot which suits the gist of our own collective choosing.

Scripture states that God wills all to be saved. ( 1st Timothy 2:4 )

Yet, evidently, He has predestined that only those who through faith in Christ and love for Jesus are transformed by/conformed to the Divine Nature/Holy Spirit will actually be saved from His annihilating wrath.

If we postulate that God selects individuals unto wrath or salvation, ( See Romans 9 ) this appears contradictory to His will that all be saved...unless His selection is based upon foreknowledge ( See 1st Peter 1:2 ) which allows for His willingness for all to be saved, but also provides for His Omniscience eliminating any doubtful reckonings, or false expectations towards any of us. And this may also be attributed to God's Eternal Nature, wherein time presumably presents no barriers, so that God's Presence is Omnipresence throughout all space, time, and beyond.

Somewhat intangible, at this point, yet marvelously wondrous to even begin to ponder.

May The Lord Be Magnified !

wm

 

[Cassidy]

This is a very interesting post. It lends itself to my own question as per predestination. As for God knowing who would reject Christ let me ask you this. The bible says God made some pottery for usefull things and others for destruction. That would lead me to believe it was a choice on Gods behalf. Please include this into the equation.

Interesting you should bring that up because I often forget about that verse. How then would you reconcile that with the parable of the wheat and the tares. Remember that the farmer sowed wheat into the field but the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. They were harvested and the tares were burned up. Who are these tares?

 

[wayfaring man]

Interesting you should bring that up because I often forget about that verse. How then would you reconcile that with the parable of the wheat and the tares. Remember that the farmer sowed wheat into the field but the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. They were harvested and the tares were burned up. Who are these tares?

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; <-----> Matthew 13:38

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. <-----> John 8:41-44

He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. <-----> 1st John 3:8-10

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceiving while they feast with you;
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: <-----> 2nd Peter 2:12-14

wm

 

[40creek]

Interesting you should bring that up because I often forget about that verse. How then would you reconcile that with the parable of the wheat and the tares. Remember that the farmer sowed wheat into the field but the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat. They were harvested and the tares were burned up. Who are these tares?

The parable of the tares and the verses on Gods pottery then are deametrically apposing one another. Hmmm! A dilema.

Since I believe the bible I think this requires study. God creates pottery for bad works. The bible says this.
Satan sowed the evil tares. The bible says this.
Paul says somewhere that he sent a man back to satan.
Could God have sent the bad pottery to satan for the His own purpose? To reach a desired goal. The parable is about how the reaper will go about removing the weed. It is a parable = a fictitious story intended to present an idea or moral.

I'm usually pretty Good at answering real biblical questions. This one does have me sputtin and stutering a bit.

 

[ashout]

I used to have a bike, and it occured to me that the person who made it made it for riding. And I did ride it, it worked perfectly, it was fun. that is what the children of God are like.

now lets say I also used to own a calinder. would I ever try to fill it with water and drink from it? in this way, God uses the children of Satan for different purposes then the children of light, Satan can't hold the water of life in, and he's no good for satisfying God's thirst for holy children.

 

[His_disciple3]

The potter works with the same lump, He changes a vessel of dishonour into a vessel of honour, but it is the same lump of clay.

if Paul Preached Predestination, why would he preach this:


2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV
the Elect needs to be saved ???????

 

[served]

The potter works with the same lump, He changes a vessel of dishonour into a vessel of honour, but it is the same lump of clay.

if Paul Preached Predestination, why would he preach this:


2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV
the Elect needs to be saved ???????

Paul explains he was willing to suffer for the elect and that they might obtain what they have been elected to. God needs his elect and even his elect are saved by GOD's grace but this is not the message of this verse. The message is Paul is confirming the elects status and importance and what he is willing to do to ensure and confirm their destination of salvation IN Jesus.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How do you explain 2:4? Is this predestination?

 

[Cassidy]

The parable of the tares and the verses on Gods pottery then are deametrically apposing one another. Hmmm! A dilema.

Since I believe the bible I think this requires study. God creates pottery for bad works. The bible says this.
Satan sowed the evil tares. The bible says this.
Paul says somewhere that he sent a man back to satan.
Could God have sent the bad pottery to satan for the His own purpose? To reach a desired goal. The parable is about how the reaper will go about removing the weed. It is a parable = a fictitious story intended to present an idea or moral.

I'm usually pretty Good at answering real biblical questions. This one does have me sputtin and stutering a bit.

Yeh me too! This as puzzled me for quite some time. I've often thrown my hands up in the air and thought "Forget about it, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things" but it just keeps coming back up.

For while I tought that Satan created evil beings...like minions that he planted all over the world (tares look like the real thing, but when you open them up they have a black heart). But that doesn't really sit right so I'm left pondering this....

 

[RefCath]

I know A little about Arminianism and Calvinism but would like to know more and is God the only being with free will? I really dont know what to think.

The best place to start is Liogonier Ministries

 

[realtruth101]

The concept of predestination and the concept of free will appear to be diametrically opposed to each other...and yet Scripture clearly speaks of both as being that which co-exist...which is rather paradoxical.

In an effort to consider them together we sometimes say things like, God predestined our free will so that we could choose life or death.

Or that God predestines there to be some who become one way or another ( honorable or dishonorable ), but lets us "fall into" the slot which suits the gist of our own collective choosing.

Scripture states that God wills all to be saved. ( 1st Timothy 2:4 )

Yet, evidently, He has predestined that only those who through faith in Christ and love for Jesus are transformed by/conformed to the Divine Nature/Holy Spirit will actually be saved from His annihilating wrath.

If we postulate that God selects individuals unto wrath or salvation, ( See Romans 9 ) this appears contradictory to His will that all be saved...unless His selection is based upon foreknowledge ( See 1st Peter 1:2 ) which allows for His willingness for all to be saved, but also provides for His Omniscience eliminating any doubtful reckonings, or false expectations towards any of us. And this may also be attributed to God's Eternal Nature, wherein time presumably presents no barriers, so that God's Presence is Omnipresence throughout all space, time, and beyond.

Somewhat intangible, at this point, yet marvelously wondrous to even begin to ponder.

May The Lord Be Magnified !

wm

This is a good post to follow, as we can see from history, those who take one side of this doctrine, and go to the farthest extreme, it without doubt falls into error, just as those on the other side can do the same. The Pharisees were given the law, and they took it to the farthest extreme and became enemies of God, Jesus called them children of the devil, the bible teaches there is a balance, so that actually both sides are correct but one must understand the balance of scripture. Just as the Apostle James points out faith without works is dead......theres a balance

 

[realtruth101]

The best place to start is Liogonier Ministries

A better place to start is THE BIBLE!

 

[holyrokker]

Predestination is not the same as predetermined.

A destiny is a specific plan for a specific group of people or person.

Predestination means that God had a specific plan for humanity before we were born (before He even created Adam). It allows for choice.

Predetermined means that God decided what people would do. It doesn't allow for choice.