Predestination

[MamaZ]

Sorry, but this is an assumption. The bible is explicitly clear that our choices and actions impact our salvation.

To assume that these choices and actions are out of our control is risky.

We are saved by Grace.. Not of works.. So our choices and actions does not secure our salvation.. Our salvation is secure in Christ and Him alone.

 

[MamaZ]

So you believe that a man can live without sinning?

So do you believe that Christ became sin for His elect?

 

[cygnusx1]

You are beginning to sound like a Catholic.

yes , a Puritan protestant catholic

 

[cygnusx1]

So do you believe that Christ became sin for His elect?

yes , but that text needs care , Christ became sin in a symbolic way , otherwise He himself could never enter heaven .

many years ago there was a controversy over that passage , a controversy over the writings of Crisp , Tobias Crisp.

 

[Albion]

Well actually it means that He already knew who He had chosen.

Of course. If he ratified the choice that he foreknew we would make, it wouldn't be predestination or election.

 

[Albion]

If God created people to go to hell, then he would not be just or merciful.

That would be true ONLY IF those people were sinless, blameless, and still went to hell.

Do you know any such people?

Me, neither.

 

[Secundulus]

If God created people to go to hell, then he would not be just or merciful.

God is just and merciful.

To be fair about it, Calvin did not actually teach that. He actually taught exactly the same thing proposed by St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica.

Essentially it states that all men sin by nature. Sin deserves punishment.

God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment.

Others continue in their own nature and simply receive from God their just desserts.

See: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Predestination (Prima Pars, Q. 23)
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My Quixotic quest is to kill the strawmen that infest CF.

 

[cygnusx1]

To be fair about it, Calvin did not actually teach that. He actually taught exactly the same thing proposed by St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica.

Essentially it states that all men sin by nature. Sin deserves punishment.

God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment.

Others continue in their own nature and simply receive from God their just desserts.

See: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Predestination (Prima Pars, Q. 23)
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My Quixotic quest is to kill the strawmen that infest CF.

thankyou friend , i never thought i would see a post like this from someone else , i have been making the same point on cf for years , would we could see a thousand such posts !

 

[Albion]

I'd like to ask a question. Secundulus made a point. Cygnus enthusiastically agreed with it. While I generally agree with it and was glad to see that it showed a recognition of the predestinarian POV, I am stuck on one point...so either of you straighten it out for us, please.

Is this particular part of what Secundulus wrote correct: "God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment."

My understanding is not that Calvin (or other predestinarians, for that matter) said the above but instead that they held that the elect are predestined to receive the faith that saves and so receive forgiveness, not that they will never sin (and therefore merit salvation for the reason that there never was any fault in them).

 

[Secundulus]

I'd like to ask a question. Secundulus made a point. Cygnus enthusiastically agreed with it. While I generally agree with it and was glad to see that it showed a recognition of the predestinarian POV, I am stuck on one point...so either of you straighten it out for us, please.

Is this particular part of what Secundulus wrote correct: "God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment."

My understanding is not that Calvin (or other predestinarians, for that matter) said the above but instead that they held that the elect are predestined to receive the faith that saves and so receive forgiveness, not that they will never sin (and therefore merit salvation for the reason that there never was any fault in them).

I agree. I wrote very briefly simply to kill the strawman. Nevertheless, I have read both Calvin and Aquinas on Predestination and cannot see a nickles worth of difference.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'd like to ask a question. Secundulus made a point. Cygnus enthusiastically agreed with it. While I generally agree with it and was glad to see that it showed a recognition of the predestinarian POV, I am stuck on one point...so either of you straighten it out for us, please.

Is this particular part of what Secundulus wrote correct: "God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment."

My understanding is not that Calvin (or other predestinarians, for that matter) said the above but instead that they held that the elect are predestined to receive the faith that saves and so receive forgiveness, not that they will never sin (and therefore merit salvation for the reason that there never was any fault in them).

it sounds like shorthand from Augustine , he understood security of salvation as a gift not granted to all ..... Augustine believed the elect are preserved from the sin of apostacy .

Aquinas also had some interesting things to say about predestination , things that are not so obvious , these men were genuises , seeing things "from above" ...

 

[student ad x]

Is this particular part of what Secundulus wrote correct: "God offers some the grace to not sin and thus avoid the punishment."

My understanding is not that Calvin (or other predestinarians, for that matter) said the above but instead that they held that the elect are predestined to receive the faith that saves and so receive forgiveness, not that they will never sin (and therefore merit salvation for the reason that there never was any fault in them).

Predestinarians do not believe in attaining sinless perfection until glorification in the resurrected body.

simul iustus et peccator ("at the same time righteous and a sinner") Martin Luther

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

Was Spurgeon a "Calvinist"?
C. H. Spurgeon's Sermons On SOVEREIGNTY @ Pilgrim Publications

1. Double Predestination. Simply put, they believe that a small group of people are predestined, even before the Creation, for heaven, and that the vast majority of the world is predestined, even created for, hell.

This is a tendentious mischaracterization. It depends on what you mean by double predestination. If you mean that God acts positively to effectually call the elect to salvation and passes the rest over, letting them go their own way, yes, we affirm this. This is not, however, hyper-Calvinism. This is traditional Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism, Dr. Caner, affirms that God puts fresh unbelief in the hearts of the reprobate. This is called equal ultimacy. I'd add that, if for argument's sake we taught this, then it would still not violate human nature, since, by nature, men hate God and do not want to repent and believe anyway.
Triablogue: Caner On Calvinism

 

[cygnusx1]

^ yes , there is a world of difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism , we had one Hyper Calvinist posting at CF for Months , I opposed his views almost daily .

 

[Albion]

Predestinarians do not believe in attaining sinless perfection until glorification in the resurrected body.

simul iustus et peccator ("at the same time righteous and a sinner") Martin Luther

Thanks for the reply. That was my understanding, too.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks for the reply. That was my understanding, too.

'tis true , also I don't recall Aquinus or Augustine much less Calvin advancing sinless perfection , but I do know the whole ground of Augustine's work on "security of salvation" came from a view that God witholds from some the unforgivable sin , thus their salvation is secured by God's grace not by any merit . That is probably where the idea came from .

Certainly the writings of Calvin do mirror Augustine and Aquinus but their work comes about in different ways , Calvin and his decendents were far more systematic , Augustine and Aquinus reach their conclusions in most remarkable ways ; eg, Aquinus taught that there is an inevitability determined by God of many souls lost , not from classic texts like Romans 9 (as Calvin & Beza) but simply from the fact of Divine Providence .... a stunning work !

I'll see if I can post a little

 

[cygnusx1]

found it , Aquinus argument for predestination and "Invincible Ignorance" as he reasoned for the "greater good" , a brilliant work !

who else could have argued reprobation is for to display God's goodness ?

St. Thomas Aquinas on Predestination and Invincible Ignorance