Predestination

[cygnusx1]

You didn't really answer the question.

Can a man live without sinning?

If not, why not?

I did answer the question , a man in Christ may live in victory over sin . He may through lack of care and watchfulness as well as lack of prayer succumb to sin .

all other men cannot rise above their fallen nature .

 

[chestertonrules]

I did answer the question , a man in Christ may live in victory over sin . He may through lack of care and watchfulness as well as lack of prayer succumb to sin .

all other men cannot rise above their fallen nature .

It was a Yes or No question.

I think your answer is No, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Can a man live without sinning?

 

[cygnusx1]

^ you can keep asking , I already answered twice . seems you wish to dictate the answer . then answer yourself

 

[chestertonrules]

^ you can keep asking , I already answered twice . seems you wish to dictate the answer . then answer yourself

You evaded the question.

It's a yes or no question.

 

[cygnusx1]

to you it may be a yes or no question , to me it isn't , seeing as you asked me not yourself , you will have to recognise the difference

and there was no evasion just a careful considered response .

you wish for simplistic answers for an OBVIOUS reason ....(to control the outcome)...... if you wish yes or no then answer it yourself , and try to get out of the habit of giving someone , anyone , terms to their answer

 

[chestertonrules]

to you it may be a yes or no question , to me it isn't , seeing as you asked me not yourself , you will have to recognise the difference

and there was no evasion just a careful considered response .

you wish for simplistic answers for an OBVIOUS reason ....(control)...... if you wish yes or no then answer it yourself , and try to get out of the habit of giving someone , anyone terms to their answer

OK.

I'll answer for you.

The answer, as you and I both know, is NO.

Man cannot live without sinning.


God created man. If man is incapable of living without sinning, then this must be part of the creator's plan.

Was God's plan to create sinners, or to create free actors capable of choosing to accept or reject his will?

 

[cygnusx1]

OK.

I'll answer for you.

The answer, as you and I both know, is NO.

Man cannot live without sinning.

very surprised at this answer .

In which case was Paul speaking nonesense when he said ;

Rom.6

[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


there are at least a dozen other texts I could introduce .

God created man. If man is incapable of living without sinning, then this must be part of the creator's plan.

assumption based upon conjecture.

Was God's plan to create sinners, or to create free actors capable of choosing to accept or reject his will?

according to your first answer just sinners .

but according to my answer responsible Christians who need not sin , but almost certainly will .

 

[chestertonrules]

very surprised at this answer .

In which case was Paul speaking nonesense when he said ;

Rom.6

[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[21] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


there are at least a dozen other texts I could introduce .

assumption based upon conjecture.

according to your first answer just sinners .

but according to my answer responsible Christians who need not sin , but almost certainly will .

So is your answer that man can live without sinning?

Yes or no.

Paul clearly knew that he was a sinner and that he had to work hard to keep from falling away from the grace of Jesus.

What makes you think you are better than Paul?

1 Cor 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[Montalban]

Can you name one man who wants to go to hell?

Your argument is made of straw in this case.

And..
If God created people to go to hell, then it wouldn't matter what they wanted, anyway.

 

[chestertonrules]

And..
If God created people to go to hell, then it wouldn't matter what they wanted, anyway.

If God created people to go to hell, then he would not be just or merciful.

God is just and merciful.

 

[cygnusx1]

And..
If God created people to go to hell, then it wouldn't matter what they wanted, anyway.

the very idea is absurd .

 

[cygnusx1]

So is your answer that man can live without sinning?

Yes or no.

answered .

Paul clearly knew that he was a sinner and that he had to work hard to keep from falling away from the grace of Jesus.

What makes you think you are better than Paul?

your drifting man ........

1 Cor 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

yes , mortification is a major part of sanctification , sinning is not inevitable if we walk in the Spirit that is .

 

[Secundulus]

yes , mortification is a major part of sanctification , sinning is not inevitable if we walk in the Spirit that is .

You are beginning to sound like a Catholic.

 

[Montalban]

the very idea is absurd .

Indeed. That's why I don't support Calvinism

 

[cygnusx1]

Indeed. That's why I don't support Calvinism

then you have no idea what Calvinism or the Reformed Faith is .

you need to be informed before you go wading in attacking something you haven't understood ; here's a brief exert by a Calvinst that will show just what I mean ;

Now, I say if the character of Jacob, be as I have described it, and I am sure it is—we have got it in God's word—there was, there could have been nothing in Jacob, that made God love him; and the only reason why God loved him, must have been because of his own grace, because "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." And rest assured, the only reason why any of us can hope to be saved is this, the sovereign grace of God. There is no reason why I should be saved, or why you should be saved, but God's own merciful heart, and God's own omnipotent will. Now that is the doctrine; it is taught not only in this passage, but in multitudes of other passages of God's Word. Dear friends, receive it, hold fast by it, and never let it go.

Now, the next question is a different one: Why did God hate Esau? I am not going to mix this question up with the other, they are entirely distinct, and I intend to keep them so, one answer will not do for two questions, they must be taken separately, and then can be answered satisfactorily. Why does God hate any man? I defy anyone to give any answer but this, because that man deserves it; no reply but that can ever be true. There are some who answer, divine sovereignty; but I challenge them to look that doctrine in the face. Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignly—it is the same thing—created that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever. You are quite right when you say the reason why God loves a man, is because God does do so; there is no reason in the man. But do not give the same answer as to why God hates a man. If God deals with any man severely, it is because that man deserves all he gets. In hell there will not be a solitary soul that will say to God, O Lord, thou hast treated me worse than I deserve! But every lost spirit will be made to feel that he has got his deserts, that his destruction lies at his own door and not at the door of God; that God had nothing to do with his condemnation, except as the Judge condemns the criminal, but that he himself brought damnation upon his own head, as the result of his own evil works. Justice is that which damns a man; it is mercy, it is free grace, that saves; sovereignty holds the scale of love; it is justice holds the other scale. Who can put that into the hand of sovereignty? That were to libel God and to dishonour him;

Now, let us look at Esau's character, says one, "did he deserve that God should cast him away?" I answer, he did. What we know of Esau's character, clearly proves it. Esau lost his birthright. Do not sit down and weep about that, and blame God. Esau sold it himself; he sold it for a mess of pottage. Oh, Esau, it is in vain for thee to say, "I lost my birthright by decree." No, no. Jacob got it by decree, but you lost it because you sold it yourself—didn't you? Was it not your own bargain? Did you not take the mess of red pottage of your own voluntary will, in lieu of the birthright? Your destruction lies at your own door, because you sold your own soul at your own bargain, and you did it yourself.

Jacob and Esau

 

[Montalban]

Was Spurgeon a "Calvinist"?
C. H. Spurgeon's Sermons On SOVEREIGNTY @ Pilgrim Publications

1. Double Predestination. Simply put, they believe that a small group of people are predestined, even before the Creation, for heaven, and that the vast majority of the world is predestined, even created for, hell.

This is a tendentious mischaracterization. It depends on what you mean by double predestination. If you mean that God acts positively to effectually call the elect to salvation and passes the rest over, letting them go their own way, yes, we affirm this. This is not, however, hyper-Calvinism. This is traditional Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism, Dr. Caner, affirms that God puts fresh unbelief in the hearts of the reprobate. This is called equal ultimacy. I'd add that, if for argument's sake we taught this, then it would still not violate human nature, since, by nature, men hate God and do not want to repent and believe anyway.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2006/06/caner-on-calvinism.html

 

[MamaZ]

Predestined from the beginning of the world means that God already had a plan in place and he knew who would choose Christ.

Well actually it means that He already knew who He had chosen.

 

[MamaZ]

Since you don't know, don't you think it is unwise to assume that our actions while on earth are not part of the equation?

God choosing His elect is not based on mans actions.. God choosing His elect is based on His Mercy and Grace..

 

[MamaZ]

If it is not based on our merit it is based on God's whim. Both views are false because both views separate a portion of mankind from God.

Gods Whim? God chose His elect before the foundation of the earth.. So it sounds to me as if it is His plan and not a whim..

 

[annrobert]

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by chestertonrules

So is your answer that man can live without sinning?

Yes or no.
​

[/QUOTE]


Galatians 3


1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

1John 1


7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.

Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Galatians 3


1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?




Psalm 103


1Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. 6The LORD executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed



Romans 9

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

romans 7

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind



John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.