Predestination

[Hammster]

If it is not based on our merit it is based on God's whim. Both views are false because both views separate a portion of mankind from God.

Well, I agree that isn't based upon things we do, otherwise it isn't grace. And I don't think it is based upon God's whims, because there are no indications that God has whims. Whims are for those who aren't omniscient.

 

[Yab Yum]

Well, I agree that isn't based upon things we do, otherwise it isn't grace. And I don't think it is based upon God's whims, because there are no indications that God has whims. Whims are for those who aren't omniscient.

"Merit" and "whim" are mutually exclusive.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, I agree that isn't based upon things we do, otherwise it isn't grace. And I don't think it is based upon God's whims, because there are no indications that God has whims. Whims are for those who aren't omniscient.

Oh my gosh, IT'S DUG!!! LOVE HIM!!!


Sorry....carry on.

 

[Hammster]

Oh my gosh, IT'S DUG!!! LOVE HIM!!!


Sorry....carry on.

That's okay. I understand. Can I stay?

 

[Montalban]

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow,to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

I love that Jesus lets us choose

 

[AndOne]

Phil 3

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow,to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3
20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. 3

 

[Montalban]

Phil 3
20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. 3

This 'citizenship in heaven' doesn't side exclusively with predestination.

 

[AndOne]

This 'citizenship in heaven' doesn't side exclusively with predestination.

I would read all of Philipians 3 in context and not jump to any conclusions based upon one or two verses. But - that is just me...

 

[Hammster]

I would read all of Philipians 3 in context and not jump to any conclusions based upon one or two verses. But - that is just me...

Context? Why read in context when you can find a verse or two and make it say what you want. Or just highlight the part that you think supports your assertion and forget about the part in the same passage that says that Christ Jesus has already made Paul His own.

 

[Albion]

If it is not based on our merit it is based on God's whim.

No, it's certainly not the case that there are two and only two possibilities there. The answer is simply that God has his reasons and we are not given to know all about them in this life, just as he has not revealed everything that he does or why he does them in other areas. I believe, as do many others, that there is much that will be revealed to us in the afterlife when we are able to comprehend it.

 

[Albion]

Since you don't know, don't you think it is unwise to assume that our actions while on earth are not part of the equation?

If it were an assumption, you'd have a point. But that is not the case.

When I say that I believe God is in charge of all things and that he has predestined his Elect, I say this strictly because the Bible reveals this much to us. But when it comes to a question that the Bible has not answered, such as "Then has God decided whom to choose?" it is best not to try to 'fill in the blanks' for him.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of that on the part of the anti-Predestinarians who do a lot of rationalizing and then present that as if it were settled--for instance the supposition that if we do not know how God goes about selecting his Elect it must be that he does it randomly. The Bible doesn't say that he does. There is no reason to assume that if it's not the one, it must be the other.

 

[Secundulus]

Context? Why read in context when you can find a verse or two and make it say what you want. Or just highlight the part that you think supports your assertion and forget about the part in the same passage that says that Christ Jesus has already made Paul His own.

I don't think that by itself this verse supports your argument strongly, even in context. It seems to be addressing Christians in a state of Grace without speaking of why they are in that state.

Ephesians 1 is a stronger argument.

 

[Dorothea]

That's okay. I understand. Can I stay?

love it.

 

[Montalban]

I would read all of Philipians 3 in context and not jump to any conclusions based upon one or two verses.

You're the one who added additional verses to a previous person's quotes as if to show that his quote needed them to show a different context.

Yours do not add necessarily to your side, as a 'citizenship in heaven' could be used by our side.

That is what I'm saying. I'm sorry you didn't understand that.

 

[Montalban]

I don't think that by itself this verse supports your argument strongly, even in context. It seems to be addressing Christians in a state of Grace without speaking of why they are in that state.

Indeed! Two people have responded in relation to 'context' when they're dealing with the addition of a verse that doesn't direct the quote necessarily in their direction.

They seem to have missed that.

Ephesians 1 is a stronger argument.

I would accept that too!

 

[AndOne]

You're the one who added additional verses to a previous person's quotes as if to show that his quote needed them to show a different context.

Yours do not add necessarily to your side, as a 'citizenship in heaven' could be used by our side.

That is what I'm saying. I'm sorry you didn't understand that.

I added the verses to show how the others were taken out of context.

 

[chestertonrules]

If it were an assumption, you'd have a point. But that is not the case.

When I say that I believe God is in charge of all things and that he has predestined his Elect, I say this strictly because the Bible reveals this much to us. But when it comes to a question that the Bible has not answered, such as "Then has God decided whom to choose?" it is best not to try to 'fill in the blanks' for him.

Sorry, but this is an assumption. The bible is explicitly clear that our choices and actions impact our salvation.

To assume that these choices and actions are out of our control is risky.

 

[chestertonrules]

Phil 3
20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. 3

A citizen can give up citizenship and move to another country.

Paul makes it clear that our salvation is not to be taken for granted because we are capable of walking away.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, it's certainly not the case that there are two and only two possibilities there. The answer is simply that God has his reasons and we are not given to know all about them in this life, .

It's amazing to me that anyone who has read the bible can say this.

God has given us prophets, the bible, apostles, and to top it all off he became man to instruct us clearly about these reasons.

Why did he do these things? Seriously!?

 

[Montalban]

I added the verses to show how the others were taken out of context.

I understand that. They point to us being 'citizens of heaven' which can mean either your side or mine is correct. They don't necessarily tip the quote in your favour