Predestination

[cygnusx1]

BUMP



cygnusx1????

yeh what's up

 

[cygnusx1]

the Law was given to increase sin , thus sayeth scripture , some think it was given to establish man's ability and prove he has free-will , the opposite seems obviously the case . Who was it who talked about "slaves of sin " ?

 

[chestertonrules]

You have said that God wants to save all.

Wrong.(again)

I said that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God let's us choose to love him or reject him. He wants our love, but he won't save the unwilling.

 

[cygnusx1]

Wrong.(again)

I said that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God let's us choose to love him or reject him. He wants our love, but he won't save the unwilling.

was Saul also called Paul willing , then why was he thrown of his horse to the ground and also blinded ........ the will is a slave .

 

[MamaZ]

A just and loving God

.

the god I see being outlined here is not just. He is wimpy and wishy washy and bows to human wills.. Love is an action word. How does the god you protray love when he leaves men to their own devices?

How is it powerless to create beings with free will who live forever?

He created beings for His purpose. Not the will and purpose of men and their own devices..

How is God bowing to us by giving us the choice to accept or reject his grace?

He has to bow to the wills of men.. God does not need to bow to the will of man.. God does not bow to the wills of men either. Paul was knocked off His horse and blinded.. Was that Sauls will? Did he choose for this?
Don't fool yourself, there are consequences for your decisions and actions.

Oh yes there is consequences for decisions and actions.. But salvation is not based on mens decision but the Very Grace and Power of God.. Do not be deceived..

 

[Lordismystrength]

I've gone from one end of the spectrum of predestination to the other and then back again after searching the scriptures. After all this time, effort, studying, etc., in the end, I think it boils down to:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and care about other people (your neighbor) as much as you care about yourself and then we have fulfilled God's requirement (and if not "required", then we have fulfilled His destiny for our lives.)

 

[chestertonrules]

I've gone from one end of the spectrum of predestination to the other and then back again after searching the scriptures. After all this time, effort, studying, etc., in the end, I think it boils down to:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and care about other people (your neighbor) as much as you care about yourself and then we have fulfilled God's requirement (and if not "required", then we have fulfilled His destiny for our lives.)

Ultimately, it is beyond our understanding.

Your answer sums it up. We have no excuse for ignoring the commandments of Jesus.

 

[Secundulus]

What differerence does it make in the living out of one's faith whether Calvin's understanding, or Arminius' understanding, or the Catholic understanding of predestination is correct?

If the answer is no difference then I think it is kind of stupid to set this thing up as something that divides.

It probably has something to do with human pride and the need to be correct. That would be sin.

If there is a difference, then someone illuminate me.

 

[chestertonrules]

What differerence does it make in the living out of one's faith whether Calvin's understanding, or Arminius' understanding, or the Catholic understanding of predestination is correct?

If the answer is no difference then I think it is kind of stupid to set this thing up as something that divides.

It probably has something to do with human pride and the need to be correct. That would be sin.

If there is a difference, then someone illuminate me.

I believe that these debates can be enjoyable and lead to a deeper study of scripture and the early fathers. To a certain extent, I agree that pride and the desire to be right can override charity at times.

More importantly, however, I believe that there is a danger to deterministic predestination as taught by 5 points Calvinists.

The danger is primarily to those who doubt their faith; those experiencing the dark night of the soul or some other feeling of separation from God. In those moments, or days, or years, if one holds to 5 points Calvinism, it woiuld be very easy to fall into despair.

I personally know someone struggling with this. They are convinced that they have been chosen for hell.

 

[Secundulus]

The danger is for those who doubt their faith. Those experiencing the dark night of the soul. In those moments, if you hold to 5 points Calvinism, it woiuld be very easy to fall into despair.

I personally know someone struggling with this. They are convinced that they have been chosen for hell.

I can relate to that. I once lost my faith largely because my faith at that time was formed by Protestant thought. I concluded either that God hated me or that he was an illusion.

Lawyers are our bane and screw up theology as badly as they screw up running countries.

 

[Montalban]

was Saul also called Paul willing , then why was he thrown of his horse to the ground and also blinded ........ the will is a slave .

Why did God punish this 'slave'? Why didn't God just compel him to believe rather than try to convince him of his errors and get him to choose a different direction?

 

[MamaZ]

Why did God punish this 'slave'? Why didn't God just compel him to believe rather than try to convince him of his errors and get him to choose a different direction?

He did compel him.. He knocked him off his horse and caused him to be blinded. IT was not a direction Saul needed it was Christ Himself that Saul needed..

 

[Hammster]

Why did God punish this 'slave'? Why didn't God just compel him to believe rather than try to convince him of his errors and get him to choose a different direction?

Who are we to dictate the means in which God uses? He is sovereign over both the ends and the means.

 

[chestertonrules]

He did compel him.. He knocked him off his horse and caused him to be blinded. IT was not a direction Saul needed it was Christ Himself that Saul needed..

That was an act of grace. It did not end there. Paul needed to persevere, press on, to strain ahead. Paul did not stop making choices when grace intervened in his life.

He could have chosen to reject God's grace.

 

[Yab Yum]

What differerence does it make in the living out of one's faith whether Calvin's understanding, or Arminius' understanding, or the Catholic understanding of predestination is correct?

If the answer is no difference then I think it is kind of stupid to set this thing up as something that divides.

It probably has something to do with human pride and the need to be correct. That would be sin.

If there is a difference, then someone illuminate me.

QUITE RIGHT. All these debates are really just philosophy. All that matters is what happens when the rubber hits the road.

 

[chestertonrules]

QUITE RIGHT. All these debates are really just philosophy. All that matters is what happens when the rubber hits the road.

I'm interested in your response to my post copied below. This was my response to Secundulus.



I believe that these debates can be enjoyable and lead to a deeper study of scripture and the early fathers. To a certain extent, I agree that pride and the desire to be right can override charity at times.

More importantly, however, I believe that there is a danger to deterministic predestination as taught by 5 points Calvinists.

The danger is primarily to those who doubt their faith; those experiencing the dark night of the soul or some other feeling of separation from God. In those moments, or days, or years, if one holds to 5 points Calvinism, it woiuld be very easy to fall into despair.

I personally know someone struggling with this. They are convinced that they have been chosen for hell.

 

[Albion]

But all of these personal theories, whether it be Secundulus thinking that he might have lost his faith (because of Protestantism) rather than focus on the fact that stares us all right in the face, which is that he didn't lose it, or ChestertonRules assuming that St. Paul could have authored much of the inerrant Word of God but yet have been at risk of ending up as an apostate, just doesn't follow.

Mainly, what this demonstrates is a fact of life with us mortals. We worry about the future and therefore speculate on possible scenarios rather than resting easy knowing that God is in charge.

BTW Secundulus, I have woindered myself if I would have lost my faith if I'd remained a Roman Catholic instead of converting to another church, BUT that notion has me assuming that God didn't lead me (or you, if we reverse the situation) to the church that he wants each of us to be in for the strengthening of our faith and fulfilment of some tasks he has in mind for us.

IMO, we should never make that assumption.

 

[Hammster]

I wonder if it is possible that at least one Catholic has ever feared going to Hell because they don't think they've done enough works?

 

[MamaZ]

That was an act of grace. It did not end there. Paul needed to perserver, press on, to strain ahead. Paul did not stop making choices when grace intervened in his life.

He could have chosen to reject God's grace.

And be like Jonah? Christ changed Paul from the inside out..

 

[chestertonrules]

And be like Jonah? Christ changed Paul from the inside out..

Do you deny that Paul himself said that he had to press on to win the prize for which he was called?

Do you deny that Paul said that he must stand strong so that after preaching the gospel he himself would not be disqualified?