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Predestination

Albion

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There is no proof that God predestines salvation for some and not all.

I'd agree that if we make the Bible our guide in answering that, it is possible to make a predestinarian argument from it, a freewill argument from it, a universalist argument from it, and also something in between. Does this mean that there is no proof or just that the evidence leads different people to different conclusions?

There is however, proof that His will is that all are to be saved.
Again, that's a matter of opinion, but IMO the Biblical verses that suggest, not prove, universal salvation are few and weak.

That He predestined Cyrus proves that He can and will decree who His subjects are to be (even tho all are in fact subject to Him) and that it's not for the matter of salvation but for His plan to be carried out.
But we must also recognize that the elect are not described in the NT in terms of service apart from their salvation.
 
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chestertonrules

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Clearly this is a passage that is made to a specific group of people - not all of mankind. Again the error is made of eroniously pulling out one verse of scripture and taking it out of context in an effort to disprove Calvinism.

So what. It demonstrates that even though Jesus will to gather them up he would not force them to come. Their will prevailed.

One needs to read all of chapter 23 to see that the group of people that Jesus is speaking to is the pharisees. In fact every verse of the chapter is an admonishment to the pharisees in regards to their hypocracy and their leading of the Jewish nation astray.

It doesn't matter who he was speaking to. We have already read that God wants the wicked to repent, as Jesus confirms here. It was their will that prevented the effective operation of God's grace, not God's will that withheld the grace.
 
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Albion

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So what. It demonstrates that even though Jesus will to gather them up he would not force them to come. Their will prevailed.
But it, the passage, doesn't have anything to do with predestination or salvation.


We have already read that God wants the wicked to repent,
Certainly. Whether one is among the Elect or is not, repentance is wanted. The mistake is seeing every admonition in the Bible for people to do God's bidding as tied to their salvation. There is no reason to make this assumption.
 
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chestertonrules

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Certainly. Whether one is among the Elect or is not, repentance is wanted. The mistake is seeing every admonition in the Bible for people to do God's bidding as tied to their salvation. There is no reason to make this assumption.


It is not an assumption, it is an explicit teaching:

1 Tim 2
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
 
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Albion

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It is not an assumption, it is an explicit teaching

Seeing every instruction for men to do what's right as being connected to their salvation is an assumption. God can very well call upon the lost, as well as the elect, to be moral and to do what God expects of everyone.
 
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chestertonrules

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Seeing every instruction for men to do what's right as being connected to their salvation is an assumption. God can very well call upon the lost, as well as the elect, to be moral and to do what God expects of everyone.

That's not my point. My point is that God wants EVERY person to be saved. He gives us his grace and guidelines for living in accordance with his will.

He wants us to repent of our sins and strive for holiness.

We can't do it alone, but we don't have to because he wants to help us.
 
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cygnusx1

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It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God’s, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God’s will is not fulfilled except it be God’s will. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that when the apostles had been sent away by the Jews, and had come to their own friends, and shown them what great things the priests and elders said to them, they all with one consent lifted up their voices to the Lord and said, “Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein; who, by the mouth of our father David, thy holy servant, hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the peoples imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For in truth, there have assembled together in this city against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, Herod and Pilate, and the people of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and counsel predestinated to be done…Because God’s hand and counsel predestinated such things to be done by the hostile Jews as were necessary for the gospel, for our sakes.”
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 33
 
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Hammster

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In most cases, 'world' means 'world', 'all' means 'all', 'any' means 'any', and 'everyone' means 'everyone', just not in every single verse in Scripture which refers to the grace of God, and the gift of salvation.
I challenge you to do a search on the word "world" just in John's writings (since that is where it seems to be most prevalent). Then come back and see if you can honestly make that statement.
 
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chrisnu

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I challenge you to do a search on the word "world" just in John's writings (since that is where it seems to be most prevalent). Then come back and see if you can honestly make that statement.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said that. I apologize. However, if a passage of Scripture can just as easily support one conclusion as another conclusion, it helps neither conclusion.
 
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Hammster

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Yeah, I shouldn't have said that. I apologize. However, if a passage of Scripture can just as easily support one conclusion as another conclusion, it helps neither conclusion.
That is why context is important. If you take a verse, and on its own could be used by univeralists to support their claim, it is a sure bet that it is the wrong interpretation.

But thanks for not having knee-jerk reaction to the challenge.
 
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Montalban

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nonesense !!!


your guilty of confounding justice with mercy , it would be just if God condemmned everyone for the sin of Adam.

Justice is what is owing sinners , it is conditional .

Mercy is what is NOT owing sinners , it is unconditional .

No. Justice is where mercy is applied properly.

It is justice is I apply a law fairly. If I let one murderer go free and kill 50, whilst I have been merciful to the one, I've not been to the others and thus there is no justice because justice is the fair application of law.

You can be legally jailed guilty of breaching an unjust law.
 
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Montalban

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another distortion .

exhortations tell s what we OUGHT to do not what we can do .

and your final conclusion is far too simplistic and warped .

That's illogical; to 'exhort' us to do something we can't is pointless.

Imagine a coach sayign "Fly, men, fly!" and urging his men to fly over the opposition by flapping their arms and carrying the ball.
 
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Montalban

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It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God’s, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God’s will is not fulfilled except it be God’s will. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that when the apostles had been sent away by the Jews, and had come to their own friends, and shown them what great things the priests and elders said to them, they all with one consent lifted up their voices to the Lord and said, “Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein; who, by the mouth of our father David, thy holy servant, hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the peoples imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For in truth, there have assembled together in this city against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, Herod and Pilate, and the people of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and counsel predestinated to be done…Because God’s hand and counsel predestinated such things to be done by the hostile Jews as were necessary for the gospel, for our sakes.”
-Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints 33

" Augustine's doctrine about the liberum arbitrium or free will and its inability to respond to the will of God without divine grace is mistakenely interpreted in terms of Predestination: grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.[47] Calvinist's view of Augustine's teachings rests on the assertion that God has foreordained, from eternity, those who will be saved. The number of the elect is fixed.[47] God has chosen the elect certainly and gratuitously, without any previous merit (ante merita) on their part."
Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Augustine of Hippo ( 354-430) )
It does not follow, therefore, that there is no power in our will because God foreknew what was to be the choice in our will. For, He who had this foreknowledge had some foreknowledge. Furthemore, if He who foresaw what was to be in our will foresaw, not nothing, but something, it follows that there is a power in our will, even though he foresaw it. The conclusion is that we are by no means under compulsion to abandon free choice in favor of divine foreknowledge nor need we deny-God forbid!-that God knnows the future, as a condition for holding free choice. We accept both. . . . For no one sins because God foreknew that he would sin. In fact, the very reason why a man is undoubtedly responsible for his own sin, when he sins, is because He whose foreknowledge cannot be deceived foresaw, not the man's fate or fortune or what not, but that the man himself would be responsible for his own sin. No man sins unless it is his choice to sin; and his choice not to sin, that too, God foresaw.
The City of God Bk V ch 10

Letter 214, to Valentinus
1. Two young men, Cresconius and Felix, have found their way to us, and, introducing themselves as belonging to your brotherhood, have told us that your monastery was disturbed with no small commotion, because certain among you preach grace in such a manner as to deny that the will of man is free; and maintain–a more serious matter–that in the day of judgment God will not render to every man according to his works. At the same time, they have pointed out to us, that many of you do not entertain this opinion, but allow that free will is assisted by the grace of God, so as that we may think and do aright; so that, when the Lord shall come to render unto every man according to his works, He shall find those works of ours good which God has prepared in order that we may walk in them. They who think this think rightly.

2. “I beseech you therefore, brethren,” even as the apostle besought the Corinthians, “by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you.” For, in the first place, the Lord Jesus, as it is written in the Gospel of the Apostle John, “came not to condemn the world, but that the world by Himself might be saved.” Then, afterwards, as the Apostle Paul writes, “God shall judge the world when He shall come,” as the whole Church confesses in the Creed, “to judge the quick and the dead.” Now, I would ask, if there is no grace of God, how does He save the world? And if there is no free will, how does He judge the world? That book of mine, therefore, or epistle, which the above-mentioned brethren have brought with them to you, I wish you to understand in accordance with this faith, so that you may neither deny God’s grace, nor uphold free will in such wise as to separate the latter from the grace of God, as if without this we could by any means either think or do anything according to God,–which is quite beyond our power. On this account, indeed, it is, that theLord when speaking of the fruits of righteousness said, “Without me you can do nothing.”
 
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Montalban

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Augustine
Exposition of Psalm 102(103)

4. This is infirmity: but He "heals all your infirmities." All your infirmities shall be healed: fear not. They are great, you will say: but the Physician is greater. No infirmity comes before the Almighty Physician as incurable: only suffer you yourself to be healed: repel not His hands; He knows how to deal with you. Be not only pleased when He cherishes you, but also bear with Him when He uses the knife: bear the pain of the remedy, reflecting on your future health….

5. This then is addressed unto you, and to all men: if you are not sick, think of other things: if your very infirmity prove you sick, first take heed of your health. Christ is your health: think therefore of Christ. Receive the cup of His saving Health, "who heals all your infirmities;" if you shall choose, you shall gain this Health….

emphasis added
 
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