Predestination

[chestertonrules]

I'll try to explain this to you once again. If you use these verses out of context, as you have done, and make it say that Christ died for all people and that all are justified, it would lead to universalism.

I read them in context as they were written.

You add words that are not there to make them fit your dogma.

It's interesting that you can't acknowledge this.

 

[Hammster]

I read them in context as they were written.



You add words that are not there to make them fit your dogma.



It's interesting that you can't acknowledge this.

So you must believe in universalism, then, since you believe that Christ's death leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, if you follow me, Montalban was right when he said that you believe God punishes men for no fault of their own.



He creates the with no other option but to be goats, then punishes them for being goats.



Is this what you believe?

He punishes goats because of their sin. That's what the parable says. If you don't like it, take it up with God. Or, find one of your church fathers to explain it away.

 

[chestertonrules]

He punishes goats because of their sin. That's what the parable says. If you don't like it, take it up with God. Or, find one of your church fathers to explain it away.

You believe he created them with no other choice but to be goats, right?

 

[chestertonrules]

So you must believe in universalism, then, since you believe that Christ's death leads to justification and life for all men.

Those verses say nothing about universalism. Like Calvinism itself, the claim that these verses teach universalism is another straw dog.

 

[BRISH]

Indeed, wow.

Where do you find yourself, which category....?

That God created man, knowing that many would fail, or

That God created men to fail.



------->

1. There IS a God.

2. We DO fail.

3. We CAN be saved.



That's where I stand now.






On a side note, I must apologize for my part in causing any kind of division among my brothers and sisters here. It was purely unintentional, but I did ask "the" question; therefore, my part in this. I apologize.

Secondly, the Word says that we are to tolerate other beliefs/cultures. We do not have to agree, but we are to let them believe as they do. We are to live the example of our beliefs and pray for others, not debate to the point of fighting.









Thanks all, I really did learn alot following this thread.

God Bless!

 

[chestertonrules]

Indeed, wow.

Where do you find yourself, which category....?

That God created man, knowing that many would fail, or

That God created men to fail.



------->

1. There IS a God.

2. We DO fail.

3. We CAN be saved.



That's where I stand now.






On a side note, I must apologize for my part in causing any kind of division among my brothers and sisters here. It was purely unintentional, but I did ask "the" question; therefore, my part in this. I apologize.

Secondly, the Word says that we are to tolerate other beliefs/cultures. We do not have to agree, but we are to let them believe as they do. We are to live the example of our beliefs and pray for others, not debate to the point of fighting.









Thanks all, I really did learn alot following this thread.

God Bless!

No worries. You didn't create the division, Calvinism does.

It divides humanity among the "elect" and "non elect".

Nothing we do can change which group we are in.

 

[Albion]

No worries. You didn't create the division, Calvinism does.

It divides humanity among the "elect" and "non elect".

Nothing we do can change which group we are in.

It probably would be correct to say that Calvin is more associated with the Bible's teaching about God having divided mankind into the Elect and the "non-Elect" than any other figure in Christian history.

 

[Albion]

You believe he created them with no other choice but to be goats, right?

Therefore, if you follow me, Montalban was right when he said that you believe God punishes men for no fault of their own.

You do believe in Original Sin, don't you? Your church certainly does.

 

[chestertonrules]

You do believe in Original Sin, don't you? Your church certainly does.

Of course.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[Albion]

"You do believe in Original Sin, don't you?"

Of course.

All right. And since that is so, how does this, which you wrote, logically follow?

"Montalban was right when he said that you believe God punishes men for no fault of their own."

In fact, men are NOT innocent before God and deserving of no punishment for sin.

 

[chestertonrules]

"You do believe in Original Sin, don't you?"



All right. And since that is so, how does this, which you wrote, logically follow?

"Montalban was right when he said that you believe God punishes men for no fault of their own."

In fact, men are NOT innocent before God and deserving of no punishment for sin.

Original sin was part of God's plan. It is the way he designed humans. It is not our fault, but we bear the consequences.

Calvinists claim that God created us as sheep and goats by design.

Praise God that they are wrong. God has given all men the power to accept his grace and follow his will.

 

[Albion]

Original sin was part of God's plan. It is the way he designed humans. It is not our fault, but we bear the consequences.

If so, then he designed humans to be estranged from him, through no fault of their own, and that is no different from him electing some to salvation and some not.

Calvinists claim that God created us as sheep and goats by design.

Well, not exactly. You've just explained that, IYO, the "plan" is that we all are born in sin and undeserving of salvation. It shows his love that he will save some of us (how many, we don't know) although all of us deserve nothing better.

 

[chestertonrules]

If so, then he designed humans to be estranged from him, through no fault of their own, and that is no different from him electing some to salvation and some not.

Yes it is. He gives us the opportunity for redemption through his grace. Free will and sin separate us from God.

Well, not exactly. You've just explained that, IYO, the "plan" is that we all are born in sin and undeserving of salvation. It shows his love that he will save some of us (how many, we don't know) although all of us deserve nothing better.

God wants all of us to turn from our sins and repent. He gives us this opportunity thanks to the grace of Jesus.

He is just and merciful, not arbitrary and cruel.

 

[Hammster]

Those verses say nothing about universalism. Like Calvinism itself, the claim that these verses teach universalism is another straw dog.

Okay, let's see if you can follow this argument. I think you are taking these verses and reading into them what you hope is there.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

I assume that you believe that "all" here means all people for all time. If not, then please explain what you mean. If you do mean that all means all people for all time, then the verse says that Jesus' act of righteousness leads to justification (a right standing before God because we have been declared just)for all people, which results in eternal life for all people. That would be universalism. I really don't think you are a universalist, but if you take it as read, like you said, and not in context of the chapter, book, and the whole of scripture, then that is what you are left with.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1Cor. 15:21-22

Same problem here. If 'all' means all people for all time, then the verse is stating that every single person will be made alive in Christ. Again, univeralism.

So the argument isn't a straw dog argument, as you call it. It is just based on what happens if you use your views of "all" on these verses. A straw-man argument would be if I said everyone who disagrees with Calvinism is a univeralist. That would be an argument without proof designed in such a way as to be defeated.

 

[Albion]

Yes it is. He gives us the opportunity for redemption through his grace. Free will and sin separate us from God.

You said that Orginal Sin--being in sin--was God's plan and that we are all born with it. As you also say here, sin separates us from God. They only way for that to be overcome is for him to do it. There is no other possible answer. It can't be free will since, as we both agree, we are separated from God by sin. We'd have to be sinless for us to even have the ability to contemplate faith.

God wants all of us to turn from our sins and repent. He gives us this opportunity thanks to the grace of Jesus.

He gives the Elect that ability

He is just and merciful, not arbitrary and cruel.

Agreed. And that means that he could not leave us on our own to try to save ourselves with, as your church teaches, most of us failing to accomplish it.

 

[chestertonrules]

You said that Orginal Sin--being in sin--was God's plan and that we are all born with it. As you also say here, sin separates us from God. They only way for that to be overcome is for him to do it. There is no other possible answer. It can't be free will since, as we both agree, we are separated from God by sin. We'd have to be sinless for us to even have the ability to contemplate faith.

He did do it. He became man and died on the cross for the world's redemption.

He gives the Elect that ability

He gives all men that ability, as the bible clearly explains.

Agreed. And that means that he could not leave us on our own to try to save ourselves with, as your church teaches, most of us failing to accomplish it.

Who said he leaves us on our own? Have I not repeatedly said that we need his grace.

Your claim that he denies his grace to some is unbiblical.

You can't read Romans 9 without continuing on to Romans 11.

 

[chrisnu]

Who's fault is it that men are sinners?

According to Calvinism it's God's fault. God wanted Adam to fall, after all, so He forced Adam to fall.

He punishes goats because of their sin. That's what the parable says. If you don't like it, take it up with God. Or, find one of your church fathers to explain it away.

He punishes goats for sin which He forces them to commit.

Well, not exactly. You've just explained that, IYO, the "plan" is that we all are born in sin and undeserving of salvation. It shows his love that he will save some of us (how many, we don't know) although all of us deserve nothing better.

It is loving to force mankind into original sin, create the majority of mankind with no ability to do anything but sin - in fact, forcing them to sin, and then torture them for eternity for it?

 

[chestertonrules]

Okay, let's see if you can follow this argument. I think you are taking these verses and reading into them what you hope is there.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

I assume that you believe that "all" here means all people for all time. If not, then please explain what you mean. If you do mean that all means all people for all time, then the verse says that Jesus' act of righteousness leads to justification (a right standing before God because we have been declared just)for all people, which results in eternal life for all people. That would be universalism. I really don't think you are a universalist, but if you take it as read, like you said, and not in context of the chapter, book, and the whole of scripture, then that is what you are left with.

The act of Jesus does lead to justification and life for all men. However, we must accept his grace and follow in order to be ultimately sanctified and attain eternal life. We must follow his lead.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1Cor. 15:21-22

Same problem here. If 'all' means all people for all time, then the verse is stating that every single person will be made alive in Christ. Again, univeralism.

All men have been made alive in Christ. He is drawing all men to himself. The grace of God has appeared to all men.

Now what? Do we respond to the grace that has appeared to us?

So the argument isn't a straw dog argument, as you call it. It is just based on what happens if you use your views of "all" on these verses. A straw-man argument would be if I said everyone who disagrees with Calvinism is a univeralist. That would be an argument without proof designed in such a way as to be defeated.

Yes it is. The fact that Jesus leads all men to justification and that all men have been made alive in Christ in no way assures salvation. The bible is very clear that our salvation comes if we cooperate with these gifts of grace.

 

[Hammster]

The act of Jesus does lead to justification and life for all men. However, we must accept his grace and follow in order to be ultimately sanctified and attain eternal life. We must follow his lead.




All men have been made alive in Christ. He is drawing all men to himself. The grace of God has appeared to all men.

Now what? Do we respond to the grace that has appeared to us?



Yes it is. The fact that Jesus leads all men to justification and that all men have been made alive in Christ in no way assures salvation. The bible is very clear that our salvation comes if we cooperate with these gifts of grace.

Well, there's your problem right there. You have a wrong view of justification. Explains a lot.