Predestination

[Hammster]

Good question. As Adam lived a sinless life, then we must, according to the answer given, presume he was 'glorified' also (whatever that throwaway word means). That he fell away then afterwards means he was 'unglorified'??

Adam did not live a sinless life. See Genesis chapter 3.

 

[Montalban]

double post

 

[Montalban]

Good question. As Adam lived a sinless life UNTIL THE FALL, then we must, according to the answer given, presume he was 'glorified' also (whatever that throwaway word means). That he fell away then afterwards means he was 'unglorified'??

Edit: added for the sake of avoiding another straw-man from one poster

Even though I stated this was up until 'he fell away' and have stated 'until the fall' previously. But then those posts get ignored.

 

[Montalban]

No, it was for the other reason you named and the fact that God loves us.

Well, some of us anyway.

Others, just get damned!

 

[Hammster]

Edit: added for the sake of avoiding another straw-man from one poster



Even though I stated this was up until 'he fell away' and have stated 'until the fall' previously. But then those posts get ignored.

The point is, which you seem to have trouble grasping, is that Adam did sin. It is irrelevant that there was a time when Adam didn't sin. You aren't making a straw-man argument, just a stupid one.

 

[Hammster]

Well, some of us anyway.



Others, just get damned!

So now you have a problem with judgement?

 

[MamaZ]

Given that Adam existed without sin then sinlessness is not beyond humanity.

It is since the fall. For sinful humans beget sinful offspring

 

[MamaZ]

Apparently mercy is where two people are sinners through no fault of their own, and only one of them is saved.

Justice apparently is punishing the other person, even though it was no fault of their own.

Who's fault is it that men are sinners?

 

[MamaZ]

We became members of His Church (Body) through baptism, died and resurrected with him, and started our journey towards becoming like Him, we are being saved now as we run the race, and will be saved when we finish it.

A none saved person cannot run the race. For it is Christ who began a good work in us that will complete it. We cannot mold ourselves.. God is the Potter of man.. Man is the clay.. Salvation is not the end restult.. Salvation is of God and His choosing in to whom He will adopt to be His sons and daughters.. Then He starts to mold us into the image of Christ..

 

[MamaZ]

It also makes God a hypocrite. God asks us to love everyone. But according to Calvinism he loves only a few - for whatever arbitrary reason HE chooses.

We can only love as God commands if we have the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts by His Spirit.. God lets it rain on the just and the unjust.. He allows His sun to shine on both.. But when it comes to adoption it is the parent who chooses which children they are going to adopt..

 

[MamaZ]

Why do you think Christ died on the Cross?

He layed down His life for His sheep.. He died to save HIS people from their sin.. Who are His people? Humans don't really know.. He knows.. This is why we are comissioned to go and preach the Gospel. For God knows to whom He has predestined..

 

[MamaZ]

IN CALVINISM sinners are sinners through no fault of their own.

Yet some are punished others saved.

The whole notion of some Calvinists that they obey God because it is the right thing to do is another case of them trying to have it both ways.

If they are saying that they willingly choose to do right because it's right then they're accepting free-will and responsibility for their actions.

If they are saying that they're compelled to choose to do right, because God makes them then they're doing right because it's right is in fact they're being made to do right because God makes them.

 

[MamaZ]

"Repentence is a proof of salvation" does not answer what the point of repentence is.

Repentence is meaningless in Calvinism.

In Calvinism...

I'm compelled to do evil - I've no free will

I'm compelled to be made aware of that evil.

I'm made to feel bad (repentence) for having done evil, though it's not my fault.

And I may be condemned to hell, even though I feel repentence because nothing I do can alter whether I'm condmened to hell, or not.

What's the point in proving salvation to some? Does it alter salvation? No!

 

[chestertonrules]

He layed down His life for His sheep.. He died to save HIS people from their sin.. Who are His people? Humans don't really know.. He knows.. This is why we are comissioned to go and preach the Gospel. For God knows to whom He has predestined..

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[chestertonrules]

It is since the fall. For sinful humans beget sinful offspring

Was the Fall part of God's plan?

 

[Hammster]

Was the Fall part of God's plan?

Yep.

 

[chestertonrules]

Yep.

If the Fall was part of God's plan, then man's inability to seek his grace is also part of God's plan.

I point this out to make it clear that Calvinism teaches that God created some people for the express purpose of eternal damnation as part of his plan.

 

[Hammster]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:1-2



Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

John 12:31-32



Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18



For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

1Cor. 15:21-22

I'll try to explain this to you once again. If you use these verses out of context, as you have done, and make it say that Christ died for all people and that all are justified, it would lead to universalism.

 

[Hammster]

If the Fall was part of God's plan, then man's inability to seek his grace is also part of God's plan.



I point this out to make it clear that Calvinism teaches that God created some people for the express purpose of eternal damnation as part of his plan.

Duh.

 

[chestertonrules]

Duh.

Therefore, if you follow me, Montalban was right when he said that you believe God punishes men for no fault of their own.

He creates the with no other option but to be goats, then punishes them for being goats.

Is this what you believe?