Predestination

[Dmckay]

I'm sorry, but I have a real hard time buying into that view when Jesus proclaimed all those whom the Father has given to Me will hear My voice, and I will not lose even one.

 

[dennis777]

When God said "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated", the context was NATIONS, not individual people.

In Romans 9;13, Paul was quoting God from Malachi 1, where the context is NATIONS, not individuals.

In Genesis 25, God told Rebekah "2 NATIONS are in your womb".

The context is NATIONS, not individuals.

The Bible never says : Any person or Nation was predestined to Damnation (or salvation).

If God predestined me to salvation (or Damnation) , then God would be partial. And God said "I am NOT partial".

God told Cain "If you will do well, you will be accepted".

Calvinism is a libel/slander against God's good character.
Just like Dave Hunt said.
www.thebereancall.org


dennis777

 

[enegue]

Hi Dmckay,

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
-- John 10:15-18

"*I* lay down my life", "*I* lay down my life", "*I* lay it down of myself", "*I* have the power to lay it down": "this commandment have I received of my Father."

The Father gave the Son total freedom to exercise his own will. Jesus didn't have to go to the cross, he *chose* to go to the cross:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
-- John 15:13

Where is the love if there is no freedom to choose?

Cheers,
enegue

 

[enegue]

Calvinism is a libel/slander against God's good character.

Yes, it is.

The implementation of Calvinist theology, as Calvin himself demonstrated in Geneva, defies a fundamental principle of Jesus' teaching:
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
-- Mark 10:42-45

Calvinism also places God in a position of conditional sovereignty.

Cheers,
enegue

 

[Erinwilcox]

Yes, it is.

The implementation of Calvinist theology, as Calvin himself demonstrated in Geneva, defies a fundamental principle of Jesus' teaching:
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
-- Mark 10:42-45

Calvinism also places God in a position of conditional sovereignty.

Cheers,
enegue

I don't understand how that verse goes against Calvinism, but this I do know: it is not Calvinism that put God in a position of conditional sovereignty. Calvinism and the Bible give God complete sovereignty over everything and everyone. It is those who kick and scream to defend man's free will that limit God's sovereignty--God isn't powerful enough to save people, He has to beg and just hope that man will choose Him.

 

[enegue]

Hi Erinwilcox,

It matters little whose version of history you read, but Calvin's rule in Geneva was based on Lordship and authority and imposition. Jesus says, "But so shall it not be among you."

Calvinistic Sovereignty is based on the condition that God is irresistable. In other words, God ensures his authority by stacking the deck. Satan didn't choose to oppose to God, he was made for the purpose. Jesus didn't choose to give his life for mankind, he was made for the purpose. Judas didn't choose to betray the Lord, he was made for the purpose.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
-- Deuteronomy 30:19-20

Calvinistic Sovereignty renders these words totally meaningless because God is irresistable. How can a people made to be stiff-necked and rebellious choose life? But, hang on. He wasn't talking to all the people, was he? He was only talking to the elect. No, that can't be right either. The elect don't have to choose, they are vessels of honour and are guaranteed life.

It is those who kick and scream to defend man's free will that limit God's sovereignty--God isn't powerful enough to save people, He has to beg and just hope that man will choose Him.

You have revealed in this statement the essence of Calvinistic Sovereignty - MIGHT, POWER, ENFORCEMENT, DOMINANCE, RESTRICTION, BONDAGE, SUBMISSION, all of which must be inflicted by the master upon those who are powerless to lift themselves from their filth and depravity.

Where does love, and light, and peace, and hope, and goodness, and kindness, and the *GOOD NEWS* of the Gospel fit into this Calvinistic view of Sovereignty?

Cheers,
enegue

 

[dennis777]

Good post, enegue;

Calvin (and Calvinists) seldom speak of God's Love. They often speak of God's Sovreignty.

If we emphasize one aspect of God (sovereignty), and neglect mentioning the other aspects of God (love), how does that further God's Cause?

Is it honest?

dennis777

 

[Dmckay]

Hi Dmckay,

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
-- John 10:15-18

"*I* lay down my life", "*I* lay down my life", "*I* lay it down of myself", "*I* have the power to lay it down": "this commandment have I received of my Father."

The Father gave the Son total freedom to exercise his own will. Jesus didn't have to go to the cross, he *chose* to go to the cross:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
-- John 15:13

Where is the love if there is no freedom to choose?

Cheers,
enegue

Thank you for making my point. Jesus IS G-D and His will is absolutely sovereign. BTW, I didn't say anything that disagreed with what you think you are teaching me.

 

[Dmckay]

Yes, it is.

The implementation of Calvinist theology, as Calvin himself demonstrated in Geneva, defies a fundamental principle of Jesus' teaching:
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
-- Mark 10:42-45

Calvinism also places God in a position of conditional sovereignty.

Cheers,
enegue

You have either a very warped idea of what T.U.L.I.P. teaches OR you have a very limited understanding of the Attributes of G-d.

 

[Dmckay]

Hi Erinwilcox,

It matters little whose version of history you read, but Calvin's rule in Geneva was based on Lordship and authority and imposition. Jesus says, "But so shall it not be among you."

Calvinistic Sovereignty is based on the condition that God is irresistable. In other words, God ensures his authority by stacking the deck. Satan didn't choose to oppose to God, he was made for the purpose. Jesus didn't choose to give his life for mankind, he was made for the purpose. Judas didn't choose to betray the Lord, he was made for the purpose.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
-- Deuteronomy 30:19-20

Calvinistic Sovereignty renders these words totally meaningless because God is irresistable. How can a people made to be stiff-necked and rebellious choose life? But, hang on. He wasn't talking to all the people, was he? He was only talking to the elect. No, that can't be right either. The elect don't have to choose, they are vessels of honour and are guaranteed life.

You have revealed in this statement the essence of Calvinistic Sovereignty - MIGHT, POWER, ENFORCEMENT, DOMINANCE, RESTRICTION, BONDAGE, SUBMISSION, all of which must be inflicted by the master upon those who are powerless to lift themselves from their filth and depravity.

Where does love, and light, and peace, and hope, and goodness, and kindness, and the *GOOD NEWS* of the Gospel fit into this Calvinistic view of Sovereignty?

Cheers,
enegue

They fit very well, if you bothered to study the essence and attributes of G-d. All of His divine attributes must remain in balance. BTW, "light, and peace, and hope, and goodness, and kindness," are NOT attributes of G-d. I am going to assume that what you meant are the attributes of mercy, loving kindness (hesed) and love. But for G-d to remain G-d there can't be a display of these attributes over and above His Holiness, Justice and Righteousness. It was the need for maintaining this Divine balance that salvation had to come by the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

 

[enegue]

You have either a very warped idea of what T.U.L.I.P. teaches OR you have a very limited understanding of the Attributes of G-d.

There is another possibility that you clearly haven't considered - you don't fully comprehend the implications of what you believe. Your understanding of the Sovereignty of God is defective in two major ways, which I will try to illustrate:

When my children were young, one of my responsiblities as a loving parent was to clearly communicate to them my values and moral principles, and to assist me in this endeavour I used a range of punishments and rewards. Calvinists are stuck here.

Now that my children are grown, the job of communication still continues, but the tools, the punishments and rewards that I used, have become inappropriate. I can no longer send them to their rooms, or smack their bottoms. Does this mean I am no longer Sovereign? No. Not by any means. I still have the same sovereignty that I always possessed.

I am sovereign because, "I am the source of good things". Even though they are grown, nothing has changed in this regard. I was, am, and always will be "the source of good things".

So, the first defect in a Calvinists understanding of God's sovereignty is: it has nothing to do with inflicting his will upon man, and has everything to do with him being the source of all good things.

I will have to leave the second defect in a Calvinists understanding of God's sovereignty for another time. However, it has to do with their understanding of the purpose of God's law.

Cheers,
enegue

 

[dennis777]

Calvin's God hates the Many, and Loves the Few.

He could love all, but it pleases Him to hate the Many.

Calvin's God/Jesus told us to "Love your enemies. Love ALL people."

But, He doesn't practice what He preaches.
He loves only the Few, and hates the Many.

He is Partial.
He's not Love.
He's a little Love and a LOT of Hatred.

Since I obey the Scripture "Love ALL people, even your enemies", then, I am more Loving and Righteous than Calvin's God.

The world is turned upside down, by Calvin.
The Creature is more Loving than his Teacher.


dennis777

 

[Dmckay]

Calvin's God hates the Many, and Loves the Few.

He could love all, but it pleases Him to hate the Many.

Calvin's God/Jesus told us to "Love your enemies. Love ALL people."

But, He doesn't practice what He preaches.
He loves only the Few, and hates the Many.

He is Partial.
He's not Love.
He's a little Love and a LOT of Hatred.

Since I obey the Scripture "Love ALL people, even your enemies", then, I am more Loving and Righteous than Calvin's God.

The world is turned upside down, by Calvin.
The Creature is more Loving than his Teacher.


dennis777

I've met many people who are full of themselves, but you take the Prize. You're so closed-minded that you don't even realize that your statement proves the lie to your position. You are displaying nothing but hatred for Christian brethren who don't happen to agree with you. What training do you have in Biblical languages, Church history, theology and hermeneutics which justifies your arrogance in making such a dogmatic statement?

You remind me of the many JWs and Mormon missionaries that I have spoken to. So convinced that your position is correct that you aren't even bothering to think about or investigate the position of others.

 

[WAB]

Dave Hunt is not a credible character.

Dave Hunt was a leading player in the Y2K scare, and a leading prognosticator that Y2K would usher in the Antichrist and the One World Government and Tribulation.

Dave Hunt is a sophists who makes a lot of money selling sensationalistic books to the ignorant.

Has Dave Hunt apologized for all the people who made life latering decisions based on his sophistry and Y2K scare and pronostications that Y2K was going to usher in the Antichrist?

Not once. No doubt he laughed all the way to the bank.

You are really revealing your ignorance of Dave Hunt's position; not only on the matter of Y2K, but more specifically his many refutations of the five point calvinism position.

Hunt wrote a book titled: Y2K: A Reasoned Response To Mass Hysteria... does that sound like your description of Hunt as being "...a leading player in the Y2K scare..."?

I have several (actually 10) articles written by Hunt re Y2K... not one of which puts forth what you claim.

Your use of ad hominem attacks actually shows that you have no factual evidence for your claims.

 

[WAB]

Don't you know that God hates a slanderer?

Your words come back to bite you when what you wrote about Dave Hunt is brought into the picture.

 

[WAB]

No, what I said about Dave Hunt is verifiable fact.

Dave Hunt sold lots of books while participating in the Y2K scare that the dispensationalist sophists prognoticated would usher in the Tribulation and the Antichrist. Dave Hunt was one of the leaders and has not even said he was wrong, nor even considered apologizing to the thousands of people who made life altering decisions based on his and others false pronostications.

Those are facts. It's not slander when it's verifiably true.

O.K., then give us some evidence of those "facts" you claim as Hunt's "false prognostications"...

And while you are at it, answer what I posted under predestination? in this forum.... thanks, WAB

edited to add last line.

 

[enegue]

Hi guys,

There are three fundamental categories of men:
1. The naturally righteous
2. The naturally wicked
3. The rest of humanity (perhaps, the naturally wickeous )

The naturally righteous: men who by nature know God, and walk with him, and do what is right in his sight. God didn't make them this way, they just appeared as the result of the *very goodness* of his design.

Here are some:
Abel - Matthew 23:35; Hebrews 11:4
Enoch - Genesis 5:22-24
Noah - Genesis 7:1; Ezekiel 14:14
Lot - 2 Peter 2:8
Abraham - Deuteronomy 9:4,5; Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23;
David - 1Kings 11:38
Job & Daniel - Ezekiel 14:14 (*interesting text*)
Zacharias & Elizabeth - Luke 1:6

Oh, and Ruth. I can't find any text that explicitly says she was righteous, but the fact that God had unrighteous Elimelech take his wife and children into the land of Moab for the purpose (God's not Elimelech's) of bringing her back to Israel to marry Boaz and produce the line from which David sprung, must say something about the quality of the woman. (Interesting also that such a woman should pop up amongst the heathen )

There are not many naturally righteous men. Why? Because their righteousness makes them vulnerable, and they are easily consumed by the wicked. They cannot exist in this creation in the absence of God's protective hand. The proof of this is seen in the history of man up to the time of the flood. God had no presence in that world apart from those who called on his name, and Noah was the very last man doing so. Had God not intervened with the flood, when Noah died there would have been none. Humanity would have continued on its own for a period, but ultimately would have concluded in self-anihilation.

The naturally wicked: men who by nature don't want to know God, and refuse to walk with him, and refuse to do what is right in his sight, regardless of any effort to draw them.

Here are some:
Cain - 1John 3:12
Er & Onan - Genesis 38:7-10
Antediluvian humanity - Genesis 6:5 (All save Noah, that is)
The men of Sodom - Genesis 13:13
Many others who will not be known (to us) until God has brought this creation to its conclusion.

The naturally wickeous: men who by nature don't know God, and don't walk with him, and don't do what is right in his sight, but who respond of their own accord to efforts to draw them.

Here's one:
enegue

This is too long for a single post. I will leave the rest for another time.

Cheers,
enegue

 

[cygnusx1]

It is not surprising to me that God would Predestine all things before He created anything , I don't think God creates and then asks "why did I do that ?"

What is surprising is that The Lord should reveal it to His creation that He predestines , Foreknows , Elects and reprobates ......

Can you imagine the thoughts of the Apostles when they penned those many texts about predestination and foreordination , I reckon they were smiling , and thinking "hehehe , wait till men see these truths , sparks will fly when they find out they are not so big and important "!

 

[dennis777]

Election, Reprobation, etc is NEVER pre-destined.

Pre-destination applies to certain blessings/jobs/services/functions/etc

For example, God decided that He would conform the Saved to be "like" His Son.
But, God didn't pre-destine salvation to any certain persons or Nations.

Where is it in the Bible, that God pre-destined any-one or any nation to be Saved or Damned? It's not in there.

dennis777

 

[cygnusx1]

Election, Reprobation, etc is NEVER pre-destined.

Pre-destination applies to certain blessings/jobs/services/functions/etc

For example, God decided that He would conform the Saved to be "like" His Son.
But, God didn't pre-destine salvation to any certain persons or Nations.

Where is it in the Bible, that God pre-destined any-one or any nation to be Saved or Damned? It's not in there.

dennis777

errr , no that is not it ......

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]1 Thessalonians 5:9 [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

For God didn't appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (WEB)​

For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (ASV)​

For God's purpose for us is not wrath, but salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (BBE)​

because God has not set us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (DBY)​

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (KJV)​

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (WBS)​

For God has not pre-destined us to meet His anger, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ; (WEY)​

because God did not appoint us to anger, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (YLT)​

and ​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Acts 13:48 [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (WEB)​

And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ASV)​

And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those marked out by God for eternal life had faith. (BBE)

And those of the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as were ordained to eternal life. (DBY)​

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)​

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed. (WBS)​

The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed. (WEY)​

And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during; (YLT)​

​

[/FONT]

and if that isn't clear enough ..........​

I Peter 2:8, "...a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." ​

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded – Romans 11:7.[/FONT]