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RapeOfAngels

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holeinone said:
Did Jesus know anything?


Consider that is an affirmative statement. He did not say "perhaps" or If or maybe.

God chose not to do the miracles there that would have brought them to belief.


Did Jesus know beforehand that the cities wouldn't repent? If he did know, why did he waste time going to those cities and performing miracles? He went there knowing it was a waste of time?
 
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holeinone

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RapeOfAngels said:
Did Jesus know beforehand that the cities wouldn't repent? If he did know, why did he waste time going to those cities and performing miracles? He went there knowing it was a waste of time?
Indeed Jesus did know they would never repent, But the gospel is to go out to all men the elect and the reprobate, every man will be without an excuse Romans 1
 
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CCWoody

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RapeOfAngels said:
I believe it was very likely rhetoric, a way of emphasizing the point. If Jesus intended it in this way, then it doesn't seem to me to be a dishonest statement.
Given what people call "prophecy" today, I'm really not surprised that you would believe that even of the Lord Jesus. Personally, I believe that when the Lord says he knows something he is not into the wild exaggerations I often hear from children.

Do you have any reason other than I need for the Lord to exaggerate to believe that the verse should be interpreted that way?
 
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CCWoody said:
Given what people call "prophecy" today, I'm really not surprised that you would believe that even of the Lord Jesus. Personally, I believe that when the Lord says he knows something he is not into the wild exaggerations I often hear from children.

Do you have any reason other than I need for the Lord to exaggerate to believe that the verse should be interpreted that way?


If you want to try and reach a conclusion about divine attributes on that verse, then I would say that the burden of proof is on you. Jesus may well have been merely emphasizing the point.

Personally, I believe that when the Lord says he knows something

But of course, I don't see it as necessarily such a claim.

Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

All Jerusalem? Really? Should we take this in the strictest sense? It seems that God sometimes exaggerates.
 
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CCWoody

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RapeOfAngels said:
If you want to try and reach a conclusion about divine attributes on that verse, then I would say that the burden of proof is on you. Jesus may well have been merely emphasizing the point.
No, the burden of proof is not on me for taking the Lord at his word when he makes a prophetic claim.

RapeOfAngels said:
All Jerusalem? Really? Should we take this in the strictest sense? It seems that God sometimes exaggerates.
What makes you think that it is an exaggeration?
 
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CCWoody said:
No, the burden of proof is not on me for taking the Lord at his word when he makes a prophetic claim.

This looks like question-begging rhetoric.

CCWoody said:
What makes you think that it is an exaggeration?

Because I think it unlikely that "all Jerusalem", everyone there, would actually care!
 
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CCWoody

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RapeOfAngels said:
Because I think it unlikely that "all Jerusalem", everyone there, would actually care!
You are suppose to read ideas out of the Scripture, not read them INTO it. What SCRIPTURAL reason do you have to think it an exaggeration?

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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JWA

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predestination: The biblical teaching that declares the sovereignty of God over human beings in such a way that the freedom of the human will is also preserved(Romans 8:29-30.):)

Foreknowledge: The unique knowledge of God that enables him to know all events, including the free acts of people before they happen.:)

God bless!! Have a great day:D
 
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RapeOfAngels said:
If you are claiming that free will being involved in salvation is some threat to God's sovereignty, then there is no strawman. You are telling God he isn't allowed to create in a certain way.

Once again you set up a logical fallacy. I'm not telling God what He is or is not able to do. What I'm saying is that, the claim that man's free will regulates a sovereign God's ability to achieve what He purposes is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Simply put, it is incongruous to claim that God is sovereign and attempts to achieve a purpose but man's free will frustrates His ability to do so.

If you accept, that in principle, there would be no problem with free will being involved in salvation, that it wouldn't undermine God's sovereignty, then we agree.

Other than the fact that work of the Godhead to save the elect of God was something purposed, accomplished, and applied apart from man's involvement, I don't have a problem with man's will being involved. IOW, the problem I have with such a supposition is that it is contrary to what the Bible teaches actually happened.

And there you have it.
 
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RapeOfAngels said:
If Paul is saying that God can do whatever he likes with his creatures, then the analogy with a potter/clay would clearly be weak, because of the difference between a living creature and lifeless clay. The most relevant analogy you could find would be parent/child and person/animal. And those analogies would support the opposite conclusion. You don't have an absolute right to do what you want with a living creature. Obviously those analogy do not perfectly represent the situation with God and his creation, but they are the most relevant analogy I believe that you could find.

I have three children and I am neither their creator nor their Lord and Master so your analogy is a far cry from the generous way you describe it as "not a perfect representation." More accurately, it is a pitiful analogy you offer here. Additionally, the point of the Potter/clay analogy is to show you, and all others who would prefer to deny God's right to dispose of history as He has ordained to be most glorifying in favor of your precious "free will," that man is created for GOD'S purposes and it is God's divine perrogative to create as He sees fit, whether you feel it is fair or not.
 
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RapeOfAngels said:
Did Jesus know beforehand that the cities wouldn't repent? If he did know, why did he waste time going to those cities and performing miracles? He went there knowing it was a waste of time?

It wasn't a waste of time. The performance of miracles by God, or an agent of God, in the face of the hardness of man's heart serves to increase His guilt before a merciful God.
 
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Trainwreck said:
Well sure, of course he actively seeks out his sheep, which would be everyone on the planet.

Scripture clearly differentiates between those who are His sheep and those who are not:

John 10:22-29
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

What is made clear by this passage?
  1. Not all are His sheep.
  2. His sheep follow Him.
  3. His sheep are given eternal life.
  4. His sheep shall never perish.
  5. His sheep are the ones that the Father has given Him.
And, to further this:
  1. No one has the power to come to Christ unless the Father compels him to come (John 6:44).
  2. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son (John 6:37).
  3. The Son will lose none that the Father has given Him (John 6:39).
But the fact is that most choose not to follow.

Why do you choose to follow when they do not?

The key there is THEY made the decision not to believe; God did not make that decision for them.

Are you honestly contending the ridiculous notion that you believe in the Lord God simply by choosing to believe in Him?

No wonder athiests think Christians are out of there mind.:confused:
 
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Ethan_Fetch said:
If you don't believe in predestination what do you do with the word in your bible's? Just cut it out?

:D Excellent point! And, for those of you who try to reconcile freewill with predestination and who try to say that God really loves everyone in the whole world and wants them all to be saved, you still have to explain this:

If God predestinated men the way that you say that He did (looked down through the corridors of time and saw who would believe on Him, then predestinated them), then that still leaves you with this "problem" : If God knew who would believe on Him, then it stands to reason that He also knew who would not believe on Him. Thus, you are still left with a God who sent Jesus to die, knowing that there would be those who wouldn't believe on Him. You're still left with a limited atonement because God already knew who would believe on Him. Since ya'll don't like limited atonement, please explain.

The other issue would be that your predestination is based on works (God predestinated those whom He knew would choose Him. . .that's a work).

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Bible says that election is of grace:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Not the election of works (choosing God), but the election of grace. We are saved by grace, not by works (we are saved when God saves us, our freewill will never choose God).
 
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Erinwilcox said:
If God knew who would believe on Him, then it stands to reason that He also knew who would not believe on Him. Thus, you are still left with a God who sent Jesus to die, knowing that there would be those who wouldn't believe on Him. You're still left with a limited atonement because God already knew who would believe on Him. Since ya'll don't like limited atonement, please explain.

Erin, as you probably know, predestination is a teaching that all Christian denominations must address because, as has been clearly shown, it is addressed in the Bible. The truth of the matter is even those who, on the surface, decry the validity of limited atonement must actually, on some level, endorse it. The difference is not in whether God did or did not predestine. It is in why He predestined. The reformed view, as you know, is that He did so based on His own purpose to be glorified in election. The non-reformed view, or more accurately the anthropocentric view, is that God chooses whom to elect, and thus predestinate, on the basis of their choice (i.e., works). The obvious flaw in the latter doctrine is that those who are elected and predestined on the basis of their works have reason to boast because they made the decision, the right decision, that prompted God to reward them with eternal life. Such a view is expressly forbidden in Ephesians. Alas, enlightenment to the grace of God in redemption is, itself, a gift and we should strive only to inform them.

God bless
 
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In the Bible, "predestination" is always "to benefits/blessings which accompany salvation".

Predestination is not to salvation/damnation.

For example:
We (Saints) are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of God's Son Jesus.
It does not say that we are predestined to salvation and/or damnation.

God has promised us MORE than salvation from DEATH (the wages of sin is Death).
God has promised us MANY benefits which accompany salvation from sin and Death, such as adoption into God's family, sanctification, glorification, golden streets, rewards for service, son-ship, Marriage and a Bridegroom, the Marriage Supper, etc

Calvin was wrong.

I recommend Dave Hunt's book "What Love is This?".

dennis777
 
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dennis777

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Romans 9
amplified bible

verse 3
paul wants all israelites to be saved from their sins

verse 4
look at the way God has blessed and USED them

verses 4 and 7
God promised (spiritual) descendants to Abraham

verse 7
not all of Abe's sons were "of the promise"
Ishmael (the eldest) was not "of the promise"

verse 8
the promise applies to the "chosen" of God

What promise??
verse 5
Abe would have a multitude of (spiritual) descendants (through Christ)

verse 8
the applies to ONLY SOME of Abe's offspring (Issac, but not Esau)
as per the Choice of God

verse 13
Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
see Malachi chapter 1, the context is the nations Israel and Edom.
Esau never served Jacob (as individuals)
Edom served the nation of Israel (as Nations)
Nations are being discussed, not individuals.

verses 12, 17, 21,
God chose (elected, predestined) the Nation of Jacob/Israel to carry forward the PROMISE, and bring the SCRIPTURES/TEMPLE WORSHIP/MESSIAH into the world.

Predestination applies to service, blessings, responsibilty, benefits, honor, etc
Predestination NEVER applies to salvation and/or damnation.

dennis777
 
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Erinwilcox

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dennis777 said:
In the Bible, "predestination" is always "to benefits/blessings which accompany salvation".

Predestination is not to salvation/damnation.

For example:
We (Saints) are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of God's Son Jesus.
It does not say that we are predestined to salvation and/or damnation.

If this is the case, then there are still those who are not predestined to be conformed to the likeness of God's Son. Who are those who are not conformed to Christ's image? The reprobate. So the million dollar question for you is. . .did God predestine the Saints to be conformed to the likeness of Christ BEFORE or AFTER they were saved?
 
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