Predestination??

[Jipsah]

He stated whosoever will may come....whosoever means whosover....and he that comes to me I will in no wise cast out....

That's correct. But whosoever won't unless God changes their hearts.

To send somebody to hell who was born a sinner by nature, who had no say in it being this way and not in a very real way allowing for such a creature a way of escape but you punish them for somethng they had no power to make different is insanely unjust and showing favortism.

Sorry, but Arminianism is in that same logical pickle. You have God sitting passively allowing people, and indeed most people, to spend eternity in perdition without taking any action at all, and in fact unable to take any action at all, to save them. Being God He knows who will "choose door number three" and be saved, and has known it from the beginning, yet He still created those poor critters knowing that they'd be tormented for all eternity.

Because Calvinists think this way id be absolutely terrified to see one ever become a judge in natural law.

What's a judge in natural law?

If their understanding of righteousness can consider that just then somebody else committing the same crime as I gets off.

Once again, you're in the same shape with Arminianism. To pull a random example, let's talk about my great-great-grandfather on my mother's side. A good man by all accounts, friendly, good-natured, open-handed, always on hand if someone in the community needed help, a good husband and a good father. He would have made a great Christian. But sad to say, the Gospel never made it to the part of Korea where he lived, and he never so much as heard of the Christian faith. No chance to "accept Christ", no opportunity to "make his decision", nothing at all. The Arminian says "well, them's the breaks" and consigns gr-gr-grandpap to the infernal regions with three cheers for free will.

But grandpap didn't have any free choice, did he? How could he have "chosen" what he'd never heard of? Now you may opt for either the "invincible ignorance" stance or the "the gentiles having not the law" position to try and get around this nasty scenario. There'd be some comfort in the former but none in the latter, since being "a law unto themselves" is no better at getting one saved than is knowing the Law. All either suffices to do is make you aware of how bad off you are.

So Arminianism goes aground on the same rocks that that warn Calvinists against. More so, in fact, because while the Calvinist can maintain the hope that God will choose His elect even from among those who never heard the Gospel, the Arminian has no such leeway. In their economy, it's entirely up to the individual to "accept Christ", and if they do not, for any reason, then it's Game Over.

 

[mlqurgw]

Does He not love all who have not resisted His call? Yet, does He not offer His call to all and did He not make provision for the salvation of all?

He loves all He has chosen and them alone. No I do not believe He offers His call to all nor that He made provision for the salvation of all unless you are talking exclusively about the elect. All of His elect,absolutely. All of mankind, no. I realize this isn't classical Calvinism but I am not Reformed either. Of course I don't hold to common grace either.

How so? That seems like a contradiction.

It destroys His love by making it a useless thing. His love means nothing if any of those He loves perishes in the end. It is the same as saying His love has no power. It isn't love to stand back and watch the object of love be destroyed when you are both able and wise enough to prevent it.

 

[cygnusx1]

He loves all He has chosen and them alone. No I do not believe He offers His call to all nor that He made provision for the salvation of all unless you are talking exclusively about the elect. All of His elect,absolutely. All of mankind, no. I realize this isn't classical Calvinism but I am not Reformed either. Of course I don't hold to common grace either.

Thanks for being clear here , many arguements arise due to confusion of terms .

It destroys His love by making it a useless thing. His love means nothing if any of those He loves perishes in the end. It is the same as saying His love has no power. It isn't love to stand back and watch the object of love be destroyed when you are both able and wise enough to prevent it.

I am curious why we are told to Love our enemies if God doesn't ?

Why would we be commanded to love our enemies thus making us like Our heavenly father , who sends rain and sun on the righteous and wicked ?

 

[mlqurgw]

Thanks for being clear here , many arguements arise due to confusion of terms .

I am fully aware of how what I say can be misconstrued as being the belief of all Calvinits. That is part of the reason I don't particularly like calling myself Calvinist.

I am curious why we are told to Love our enemies if God doesn't ?

Why would we be commanded to love our enemies thus making us like Our heavenly father , who sends rain and sun on the righteous and wicked ?

Because it is just right. God does love those who are His enemies, the elect. The rain is for the elects sake the reprobate just share the benefit of it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Because it is just right. God does love those who are His enemies, the elect. The rain is for the elects sake the reprobate just share the benefit of it.

but the rain and sun don't just fall on the Elect .............. otherwise it would defeat the whole point of the illustration .......

here it is ........

we should love as God loves ............... He loves some of His enemies (The Elect) and He has proven this by giving rain and sunshine to only them ........ so if we are to be like God we too should only love .... The Elect !

 

[Erinwilcox]

Because it is just right. God does love those who are His enemies, the elect. The rain is for the elects sake the reprobate just share the benefit of it.

Well, I'm going to take the liberty to clarify and share my thoughts:


God loves some people either more or in a different way than He loves other people.

God loves everybody in that He gives them all common grace--He gives the all people (to some degree) life, breath, food, shelter, money, etc.

But, the fact still remains that some people still go to hell while others go to heaven. Thus, God must love the people going to heaven in a different way than He loves the people going to hell. God has a saving love, a special love for His elect. It is different than His common love because He grants them eternal life with Him.

So, God loves everyone commonly, but His special love He saves for His elect. He does not love the reprobate savingly or else they would not be reprobate. The special, saving love of Christ is so much greater and better than His common love. One must also remember that God is angry with the wicked every day. And, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated..." Did God love Esau the same way He loved Jacob? I think not. But, God still gave Esau life, breath, food, etc. In that, God granted Esau common love. But, the saving love of God is so much richer, deeper, and wonderful that in comparison, the common love of God seems very small.

 

[mlqurgw]

Well, I'm going to take the liberty to clarify and share my thoughts:


God loves some people either more or in a different way than He loves other people.

God loves everybody in that He gives them all common grace--He gives the all people (to some degree) life, breath, food, shelter, money, etc.

But, the fact still remains that some people still go to hell while others go to heaven. Thus, God must love the people going to heaven in a different way than He loves the people going to hell. God has a saving love, a special love for His elect. It is different than His common love because He grants them eternal life with Him.

So, God loves everyone commonly, but His special love He saves for His elect. He does not love the reprobate savingly or else they would not be reprobate. The special, saving love of Christ is so much greater and better than His common love. One must also remember that God is angry with the wicked every day. And, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated..." Did God love Esau the same way He loved Jacob? I think not. But, God still gave Esau life, breath, food, etc. In that, God granted Esau common love. But, the saving love of God is so much richer, deeper, and wonderful that in comparison, the common love of God seems very small.

I believe God does everything for the good of His elect. He gives no consideration to the nonelect except as they may serve some purpose for the good of the elect.

 

[mlqurgw]

but the rain and sun don't just fall on the Elect .............. otherwise it would defeat the whole point of the illustration .......

here it is ........

we should love as God loves ............... He loves some of His enemies (The Elect) and He has proven this by giving rain and sunshine to only them ........ so if we are to be like God we too should only love .... The Elect !

That is to misconstrue what I said. The rain and sunshine fall on the reprobate as a consequence of His giving them to the elect. We should love as God loves. He loves those who are by nature and practice His enemies, the elect. Also since we do not know who the elect are until God shows them to be elect by giving them faith in Christ we are compelled to love those who have not been as yet shown to be elect. I, with all my heart, desire that men know Christ. He is the only hope of sinners and I recognize that those who do not yet know Him are no different than I in that regard. I love them because I understand they need Him as much as I do. I do not preach the Gospel merely because I am commanded to but because I do love those who as yet do not know Him.

 

[MarkT]

Well, this is how important it is to them.

Poor fellows. God didn't consult with them. They feel slighted. Afterall, didn't they choose Him? Ha Ha

I mean without their consent, God wouldn't have a kingdom. Ha Ha

 

[MarkT]

Without the opportunity to sin, it just wouldn't feel right. Haha

 

[Erinwilcox]

Without the opportunity to sin, it just wouldn't feel right. Haha

If this is a joke, then it is NOT funny. What about heaven? There, everyone will be sinless. . .

 

[Normann]

Here's more confusion for you all:

Calvinism: faith is the result of regeneration.

Arminianism: regeneration is the result of faith.

Lutheranism: faith is the means of regeneration.

Which is right?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Christ's blood is the atonement (regeneration).
Faith is the acceptance of that atonement.

 

[Normann]

Well, this is how important it is to them.

Poor fellows. God didn't consult with them. They feel slighted. Afterall, didn't they choose Him? Ha Ha

I mean without their consent, God wouldn't have a kingdom. Ha Ha

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

[Normann]

He stated whosoever will may come....whosoever means whosover....and he that comes to me I will in no wise cast out....

To send somebody to hell who was born a sinner by nature, who had no say in it being this way and not in a very real way allowing for such a creature a way of escape but you punish them for somethng they had no power to make different is insanely unjust and showing favortism . Because Calvinists think this way id be absolutely terrified to see one ever become a judge in natural law. If their understanding of righteousness can consider that just then somebody else committing the same crime as I gets off....and that's considered just? It would bring a legal system into confusion and I'll never understand for the life of me how men can reason this way.

Good post... here's more...

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[cygnusx1]

That is to misconstrue what I said. The rain and sunshine fall on the reprobate as a consequence of His giving them to the elect.

On the contrary , the rain and sunshine fall on the reprobate as a result of God sending them upon the reprobate as well as the elect!
You make it sound like God is gracious loving and kind only to the reprobate by accident !
Which would then mean God doesn't love them and the fact of them having rain and sun is NO EVIDENCE OF GOD'S LOVE : the very reverse of Jesus illustration.

We should love as God loves. He loves those who are by nature and practice His enemies, the elect.

but this is not what Jesus taught , He taught that God doesn't discriminate with the rain and sun and these are typical of God's love!

Also since we do not know who the elect are until God shows them to be elect by giving them faith in Christ we are compelled to love those who have not been as yet shown to be elect. I, with all my heart, desire that men know Christ. He is the only hope of sinners and I recognize that those who do not yet know Him are no different than I in that regard. I love them because I understand they need Him as much as I do. I do not preach the Gospel merely because I am commanded to but because I do love those who as yet do not know Him.

well this arguement doesn't really hold up at all , for Jesus knew who was elect and He still granted good things to sinners in general ....... why would God do good to men if His motive is not a display of love ?

It says the rich young ruler walked away and Christ beheld Him and "loved him" ......... you cannot insist he has to be elect , there is no mention of this man's standing except he walked away.

with all due respect brother , I think you are missing the point of Christ's sermon , the type of love we should display , should be molded and fashioned on God's love , He loves indiscriminately , this is why He can point at the fact that both the Righteous and the Unrighteous equally profit from God's general love , He sends them both rain and sun , food and clothing etc .

Even the Gospel message is not reserved and secretly given only to the elect (which would be an easy thing for the Lord to do) .

When we are instructed to do love our enemies (it is taken for granted we love our friends) we model ourselves on God , not upon man and his natural inclination , the same with giving meals to those who cannot repay us .

The whole point of being like God is that we do not show love to only those considered our friends .......... and it should be kept in mind that loving some enemies because they are going to be friends (Jesus called us friends even while we were enemies) is not the type of Love scripture is proclaiming , but a love that cannot be payed back.

Christ healed 10 lepers , only one came back and gave praise to God .
God knew only one would reciprocate with praise , yet still He healed the others ........Behold ! an act of Divine love!

Luk 17:17And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine? Luk 17:18There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

 

[Jipsah]

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Hey, waidaminit, if God raises up children of Abraham from stones, then that wouldn't be fair at all! What about the stones' Free Will?
What if they didn't want to become children of Abraham? Who does God think He is, just creating children like that without asking their opinion in the matter?

 

[cygnusx1]

Hey, waidaminit, if God raises up children of Abraham from stones, then that wouldn't be fair at all! What about the stones' Free Will?
What if they didn't want to become children of Abraham? Who does God think He is, just creating children like that without asking their opinion in the matter?

yes but stones don't answer back .............. clay does (Romans9)

 

[mlqurgw]

On the contrary , the rain and sunshine fall on the reprobate as a result of God sending them upon the reprobate as well as the elect!
You make it sound like God is gracious loving and kind only to the reprobate by accident !
Which would then mean God doesn't love them and the fact of them having rain and sun is NO EVIDENCE OF GOD'S LOVE : the very reverse of Jesus illustration.



but this is not what Jesus taught , He taught that God doesn't discriminate with the rain and sun and these are typical of God's love!




well this arguement doesn't really hold up at all , for Jesus knew who was elect and He still granted good things to sinners in general ....... why would God do good to men if His motive is not a display of love ?

It says the rich young ruler walked away and Christ beheld Him and "loved him" ......... you cannot insist he has to be elect , there is no mention of this man's standing except he walked away.

with all due respect brother , I think you are missing the point of Christ's sermon , the type of love we should display , should be molded and fashioned on God's love , He loves indiscriminately , this is why He can point at the fact that both the Righteous and the Unrighteous equally profit from God's general love , He sends them both rain and sun , food and clothing etc .

Even the Gospel message is not reserved and secretly given only to the elect (which would be an easy thing for the Lord to do) .

When we are instructed to do love our enemies (it is taken for granted we love our friends) we model ourselves on God , not upon man and his natural inclination , the same with giving meals to those who cannot repay us .

The whole point of being like God is that we do not show love to only those considered our friends .......... and it should be kept in mind that loving some enemies because they are going to be friends (Jesus called us friends even while we were enemies) is not the type of Love scripture is proclaiming , but a love that cannot be payed back.

Christ healed 10 lepers , only one came back and gave praise to God .
God knew only one would reciprocate with praise , yet still He healed the others ........Behold ! an act of Divine love!

Luk 17:17And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine? Luk 17:18There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

I think you and I have discussed this before and got to prettymuch the same point as we are now. It is obvious that we disagree on the love of God but I do not deem it to be all that important. It really isn't something I wish to publically debate a brother over. If you feel it is important enough I would prefer we discuss it by PM.

 

[JContinuum]

I recently heard a preacher use Romans 8:29-30 to show that people are predestined to go to heaven and that those people will also be conformed to the image of Christ. The way it was used was to say that all Christians where predestined. Here is the passage.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30 KJV)

I believe that God has chosen some people to be predestined and those people he has also called and will conform those people to the image of His Son. A good example would be Saul of Tarsus. I believe God had a plan for Saul before Saul knew what it was and that God worked in his life to conform Saul into what we all know as Paul.

But I don’t believe that God has predestined all Christians to go to heaven; that would mean that God also predestined people who are not Christians to go to hell. Many verses talk about how God loved the whole world (that means every one of us), why would God predestine someone he loved to go to hell?

The idea of Predestination also makes evangelism seem pointless – why tell anyone about God if he has already chosen the people he wants to go to heaven? That goes against all the verses that tell us to go into the entire world and tell people the gospel.

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God's definition of [/size]predestination refers to the fact that he predestined the truth about him having a church (The Church being people who accept Jesus as Saviour)

[font=Arial, sans-serif]God has appointed and provided eternal life to all who believe. It is never the person who is PREDESINATED but GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION which is believe on the Lord Jesus as Saviour! That belief must be anchored by faith in the finished work of the Cross. The Apostle Paul preached Christ Crucified

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[font=Arial, sans-serif]1Corinthians 1:17-18[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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[font=Arial, sans-serif]1Corinthians 1:23,24[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.[/font]
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and Christ Crucified is the[/font][font=Arial, sans-serif] PREDESINATED PLAN OF GOD [/font][font=Arial, sans-serif]
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[font=Arial, sans-serif]
1Peter 1:18-20[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,[/font]

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Revelation 13:8[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif]
and that HOLY [/font][font=Arial, sans-serif]PREDESINATED PLAN OF GOD WAS FOR THE "WHOSOEVER "[/font][font=Arial, sans-serif]
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John 3:15-20[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [/font][font=Arial, sans-serif]. 20 They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness.
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Romans 1:16[/font]
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[font=Arial, sans-serif]For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes....

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[font=Arial, sans-serif] Romans 10:9,10[/font]
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[font=Arial, sans-serif] 9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

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[size=-1]Romans 10:13 [/size]
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[size=-1]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,"
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[font=Arial, sans-serif] 1Timothy 2:3,4[/font]
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[font=Arial, sans-serif]3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]2Peter 3:9[/font]
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [/font]

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Revelation 22:17[/font]
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[font=Arial, sans-serif]17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let each one who hears them say, "Come." Let the thirsty ones come – anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge.


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[MarkT]

The ones who say they chose God may be closely related to the ones who invented gods.

All those people in the past who invented gods, chose their gods.