Predestination??

[Beoga]

Did I say there weren't?

You see, this is the problem with you: you read stuff into what is written that just isn't there. It is no wonder you are having trouble following my arguments.

Haha, you are not being hostile at all...
Anyways, I never said you denied this, be careful about reading into stuff what isn't there.

 

[Beoga]

It's by no means a cover up. I can handle any argument you throw at me.

The point is: what is the point of addressing your posts when there is no room in them to reason with you?

You don't want the truth. You just want to bask in your own thoughts.

Yet you are open to reason? So if I disagree with you, and bring forth counter arguements, I "don't want the truth," and there "is no room to reason with me?" Quite being so hypocrytical.

 

[Reformationist]

With 5 pages of replies that I did not have time to read entirely, I may be reinventing the wheel of comment.

Anyhow, most people have a really bizarre twist and perception of the meaning of "predestinate". I think part of it is because religious and cultural influence fashioned and affected their thinking to convey a meaning on "predestinate" that it does not have.

The "foreknow" part is fairly easy. It's reasonable to accept that God can know in advance. I have no idea how, but so He does.

Many people limit their understanding of "predestinate" to have it mean something like "precontrolled" - "premanipulated" - etc..

As a human, our family has more common sense than that. When my wife married me, we predestinated that we were going to have a 3 bedroom house in 5 years; and we did not even have foreknowledge. But we knew that our family would only get so big, and we didn't want the taxes of a 4 bedroom home, so we preset or determined in advance the limits of our house.

God, with foreknowledge, can predestinate people. If He knows in advance that 1 billion people will believe, then there it's available to decree in advance and set a limit to the size of that spiritual family at 1 billion.

It's done without controlling people's free will.

But the modern term of "destiny" cannot be compared to the old biblical idea of "predestinate".

Hello mdvaden. Essentially, you've just reiterated one of the positions that is held by some Christians. However, to contend that God predestined the "size of the spiritual family" based on what He knew in advance they would choose of their own free will is to purport something that the Bible never does. First off, these people would certainly have room to boast, which violates many passages of Scripture, for their decision to choose God clearly played a part in their being predestined. Additionally, Scripture is explicit that God's election is not based on what man does (runs) or desires (wills) but, rather, the mercy of God alone (Romans 9:16).

There are manifold other verses which are violated by such an understanding of "predestined."

Lastly, it is incongruous to compare the sovereign ordination of history by an almighty God to your and your wife's "predestination to have a 3 bedroom house in 5 years." You are both finite, impotent creatures who had neither knowledge of what tomorrow will bring, nor power to ensure that anything came to pass, much less 5 years from now. Additionally, even if you did know, "knowing ahead of time" is not the sense of "foreknowledge" as used in the Bible. A more accurate rendering of the view being put forth is that of "foreordaining."

God bless

 

[woobadooba]

Yet you are open to reason? So if I disagree with you, and bring forth counter arguements, I "don't want the truth," and there "is no room to reason with me?" Quite being so hypocrytical.

The problem is: you don't have an argument.

 

[mdvaden]

Scripture is explicit that God's election is not based on what man does

Do you believe that believing is not something that man does?

Am I mistaken, or is "believe" not a verb?

But if a verb, don't verbs denote things that are done?

Is not faith "pistis" or believing? And must man not believe to be saved?

So believing is not something done to attain unto salvation?

To believe (once) unto salvation is singular.

But the Word says salvation is not by "works" plural.

So it seems that man - even mentally - must take one singular action to be saved and that is to believe.

Good thing man can't loose salvation and get it back, because he'd have to believe twice and that would be plural ("works").

 

[Beoga]

The problem is: you don't have an argument.

You don't have an arguement. See how easy this game is to play. I presented, you have not responded. You said we are predestined to be conformed to his image, I presented, you never responded. You went on a rant on how I was being "hostile."

 

[DavetheProphet]

Do you believe that believing is not something that man does?

Am I mistaken, or is "believe" not a verb?

But if a verb, don't verbs denote things that are done?

Is not faith "pistis" or believing? And must man not believe to be saved?

So believing is not something done to attain unto salvation?

To believe (once) unto salvation is singular.

But the Word says salvation is not by "works" plural.

So it seems that man - even mentally - must take one singular action to be saved and that is to believe.

Good thing man can't loose salvation and get it back, because he'd have to believe twice and that would be plural ("works").

I think what he meant was that their is nothing man can do to earn salvation. It is a gift of Jesus Christ that we can be saved, no good works will get us there. Of course we do have to perform the action of believing and accepting his gift which is what you're saying, but I think you're picking it apart too literally. It is not man's action that is the reason he gets to heaven, it's God's grace.

 

[woobadooba]

You don't have an arguement. See how easy this game is to play. I presented, you have not responded. You said we are predestined to be conformed to his image, I presented, you never responded. You went on a rant on how I was being "hostile."

Read the verse! Does it or doesn't it say "He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom. 8:29?

So what is your problem then?

 

[Beoga]

Read the verse! Does it or doesn't it say "He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom. 8:29?

So what is your problem then?

Can one be conformed to the image of the Son without being saved.
Predestination in v29 leads to calling which leads to justification. Or in other words, predestination is unto calling which is unto justification. Or in other words, predestination is unto salvation.

 

[woobadooba]

Can one be conformed to the image of the Son without being saved.
Predestination in v29 leads to calling which leads to justification. Or in other words, predestination is unto calling which is unto justification. Or in other words, predestination is unto salvation.

But you see this is where you are wrong...

God predestined that these people would conform to the image of His Son, but that doesn't mean they will.

So no, they aren't saved until they believe in Christ, and when and if they do come to believe in Christ, they must demonstrate their love for God by conforming to the image of His Son.

 

[Beoga]

But you see this is where you are wrong...

God predestined that these people would conform to the image of His Son, but that doesn't mean they will.

So no, they aren't saved until they believe in Christ, and when and if they do come to believe in Christ, they must demonstrate their love for God by conforming to the image of His Son.

Then predestination is nothing. It means nothing. It is like a christmas wish, it does nothing.
Also, this neglects verse 30 that all that are predestined are glorified.

 

[woobadooba]

Then predestination is nothing. It means nothing. It is like a christmas wish, it does nothing.

That's your opinion.

Also, this neglects verse 30 that all that are predestined are glorified.

How is that so? Those who choose to believe in Jesus Christ, and thus conform to His image, will be glorified.

Notice that they have to be called first, then justified, then glorified.

If they are predestined to salvation without choice on their part, then there is no sense in calling them, and it would be pointless to follow this sequence, for then they would have been justified and glorified prior to faith.

Surely you must see the theological problem with this.

 

[Beoga]

That's your opinion.

Haha, what a joke.

How is that so? Those who choose to believe in Jesus Christ, and thus conform to His image, will be glorified.

Notice that they have to be called first, then justified, then glorified.

Where is "choice" even mentioned?

If they are predestined to salvation without choice on their part, then there is no sense in calling them, and it would be pointless to follow this sequence, for then they would have been justified and glorified prior to faith.

Surely you must see the theological problem with this.

"That's your opinion."

 

[Normann]

Rev. 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[BBAS 64]

Rev. 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Good Day, Normann

We can agree, any man that hears:

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


There are 2 sides to a door knob....

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Haha, what a joke.



Where is "choice" even mentioned?




"That's your opinion."

Let me ask you a question, do you choose to be so rude in your posts, or did God make you that way?

 

[mdvaden]

In the course of history, this thread will only be so long. God knows that limit.

Since it has an end, we can suppose this thread was predestinated to be only a certain size.

Will the final end of this thread be due to that God knew it's size in advance, or that people only willed to write a certain amount.

 

[calidog]

In the course of history, this thread will only be so long. God knows that limit.

Since it has an end, we can suppose this thread was predestinated to be only a certain size.

Will the final end of this thread be due to that God knew it's size in advance, or that people only willed to write a certain amount.

It's kinda both but hard to understand.

 

[mlqurgw]

In the course of history, this thread will only be so long. God knows that limit.

Since it has an end, we can suppose this thread was predestinated to be only a certain size.

Will the final end of this thread be due to that God knew it's size in advance, or that people only willed to write a certain amount.

God predertermined its size therefore people only willed to write a certain amount. Actually I take the wink back.

 

[Beoga]

Let me ask you a question, do you choose to be so rude in your posts, or did God make you that way?

Evidence yet again that you don't respond. Please show how I was being rude, explain it. If you don't, how can I tell how I was being rude (plus, I quoted a response you gave, so if I was being rude, so were you).