BBAS 64 said:
Anyone who has the capacity to follow a simple argument will see that I've done that.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Predestination??
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Anyone who has the capacity to follow a simple argument will see that I've done that.
You know, I just thought about something, not only is Calvinism wrong, but Arminianism is wrong too, because God did not set His plan of salvation into motion because He knew some would choose to accept it, but "to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Him." Rom. 3:26
And so I am convinced that even if God foreknew that no one would accept His plan of salvation, Jesus would still have gone to the cross to die for all humankind, because God is love!
That is grace!
And so I am convinced that even if God foreknew that no one would accept His plan of salvation, Jesus would still have gone to the cross to die for all humankind, because God is love!
That is grace!
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Beoga
Sola Scriptura
woobadooba said:
In other words, you don't really want to discuss.
What does this have to do with anything?
Is being conformed to His image not a part of salvation? Can one be conformed to His image without being saved?
Also verse 30 states:
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Is being justified not salvation? Is being glorified not salvation?
Who believes that God forces someone against their will to believe?
Also, "foreknew" is more than a simple forkenowledge. Besides, it says "foreknew" not "foreknowledge of." To know someone is to not merely know about them (have knowlege of) but to know intimately. Thus, for those that God forknew (knew intimately prior) he predestined. Forknowledge is included within "forknew," but forknowledge is not the only knowing.
Oh, I am sorry that I don't live up to your higher knowledge and all supremecy. I am sorry that I should ask and expect someone to clarify what they said when they are confusing or can be misinterpreted.
Oh, and solid response, "I think the issue here is that you just don't want to see the truth." Makes you look right, without actually substantiating it, and it forces the other person to defend themselves instead of focusing on the topic and exposing your errors.
Oh, I don't know, I kind of get a kick out of it. It is kind of fun twisting words to say something that someone did not say in order to **** them off and make myself look like a fool. You should try it some time.
How can we have salvation prior to our "existance" when predestination is not salvation?
Why? It is too much fun ignoring you and twisting your words?
How could they already be saved if predestination is not salvation (Which I have stated and which you have said that you never claimed that you said predestination is salvation, yet when you say something like this you seem to contradict yourself)
Does that really work for you. This isn't even an arguement. A pointless statement intedent to distract from the topic at hand. What stupidity.
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littleapologist said:
Your hostile attitude makes your post not even worth addressing.
Don't forget, a lot of people are following this thread. You only make yourself look bad by using such an uncouth approach.
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Reformationist
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woobadooba said:
Do you actually think your posts are coming across as the paradigm of godliness?? All you do is insinuate that anyone who doesn't feel as you do is either too stupid or too obstinate to see that the "simple argument" that you present is true.
Honestly, do you think anyone is going to desire any kind of conversation with you based on the comments you've made?
Didn't you previously indicate that any witnessing you attempt without being motivated by a love for the souls of others is worthless? Does that not make the witness that you now cast aside as a "waste of your time" rather worthless?
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Reformationist said:
This is your opinion. But there are plenty of members in CF who appreciate my posts.
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woobadooba said:
I have apreciated your posts regardless of whether we saw eye to eye or not. (usually not).
Sure pretty much anyone can be a bit this or a bit that. Most commonly it is the reader who puts the tone on the writing (a single piece of my writing earlier was interpreted as angry, arrogant, humble and kind by a few different people)
I was just being blunt and bold as I almost always am.Though I believe it is wise to consider what everyone says (even when in anger), you know, woobadooba, in what sense or intention you write. So check your intentions but I will stand up for you in that I see a comforting level of sincerity in you myself (if that is worth anything).
Godliness may be far from us all, but godliness is the goal. I believe the writer who has critisized you went a little far by implying you lacked godliness, not because it isn't true, but because in laying such a judgement he is acting ungodly himself (IMHO).
I will tell you just how stupid your opinion is and how backwards your thinking may be (if it be that way... I wish everyone would speak plainly here). PLEEEAAASSSSEEEE people respect your fellow brother in Christ, it's hard, but lets do it. We all have a lot to learn.
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Beoga
Sola Scriptura
woobadooba said:
Haha, wow, you say I have a hostile attidtude:
How am I being hostile when I try to humour poor, hostile statements? If you don't want to respond to what I have brought forth, that is acceptable. But please, do not try and cover it up with "your post is too hostile."
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coming here from www.frostcloud.com , this forum has been incredibly respectful and kind. Actually it was when our dear woobadooba taught me something I didn't know that I realized just how wonderful it was to communicate on a Chrisitan forum.
I just wanted to add that little note in light of minor squabbles between people.
We are all the body of Christ (and yes we prune one another through Christ)
I just wanted to add that little note in light of minor squabbles between people.
We are all the body of Christ (and yes we prune one another through Christ)
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littleapologist said:
It's by no means a cover up. I can handle any argument you throw at me.
The point is: what is the point of addressing your posts when there is no room in them to reason with you?
You don't want the truth. You just want to bask in your own thoughts.
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Reformationist
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woobadooba said:
Look, I'd be interested in having a discussion with you. You have repeatedly claimed that my posts are belligerant and so you seem to have chosen to respond in kind. There are plenty of people on this MB that appreciate my posts as well. Despite that, it doesn't necessitate that I have been godly in my posts to you. For what it's worth, I'd like to appreciate your posts as well. If you could just tone down the animosity a few degrees it may help.
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littleapologist said:
Did I say there weren't?
You see, this is the problem with you: you read stuff into what is written that just isn't there. It is no wonder you are having trouble following my arguments.
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Reformationist
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woobadooba said:
I'll check back some other time, when you're not caught up in the attitude that prompts such comments.
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Reformationist said:
I agree that we both need to tone it down. And I apologise to you for being rude to you at times.
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Reformationist
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woobadooba said:
It happens. I also apologize for any insensitivity on my part. I have an overdeveloped knack for being rude. So, let's move forward.
You want to start?
God bless
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Reformationist said:
I agree that we need to move forward, but discussing the issue of predestination just isn't going to fly with either of us, because I can see that there is no way you are going to change your mind about what you believe, and I can tell you that I won't change my mind either.
Anyway, it is best to leave the topic to those who aren't so adamant like we are.
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With 5 pages of replies that I did not have time to read entirely, I may be reinventing the wheel of comment.
Anyhow, most people have a really bizarre twist and perception of the meaning of "predestinate". I think part of it is because religious and cultural influence fashioned and affected their thinking to convey a meaning on "predestinate" that it does not have.
The "foreknow" part is fairly easy. It's reasonable to accept that God can know in advance. I have no idea how, but so He does.
Many people limit their understanding of "predestinate" to have it mean something like "precontrolled" - "premanipulated" - etc..
As a human, our family has more common sense than that. When my wife married me, we predestinated that we were going to have a 3 bedroom house in 5 years; and we did not even have foreknowledge. But we knew that our family would only get so big, and we didn't want the taxes of a 4 bedroom home, so we preset or determined in advance the limits of our house.
God, with foreknowledge, can predestinate people. If He knows in advance that 1 billion people will believe, then there it's available to decree in advance and set a limit to the size of that spiritual family at 1 billion.
It's done without controlling people's free will.
But the modern term of "destiny" cannot be compared to the old biblical idea of "predestinate".
Anyhow, most people have a really bizarre twist and perception of the meaning of "predestinate". I think part of it is because religious and cultural influence fashioned and affected their thinking to convey a meaning on "predestinate" that it does not have.
The "foreknow" part is fairly easy. It's reasonable to accept that God can know in advance. I have no idea how, but so He does.
Many people limit their understanding of "predestinate" to have it mean something like "precontrolled" - "premanipulated" - etc..
As a human, our family has more common sense than that. When my wife married me, we predestinated that we were going to have a 3 bedroom house in 5 years; and we did not even have foreknowledge. But we knew that our family would only get so big, and we didn't want the taxes of a 4 bedroom home, so we preset or determined in advance the limits of our house.
God, with foreknowledge, can predestinate people. If He knows in advance that 1 billion people will believe, then there it's available to decree in advance and set a limit to the size of that spiritual family at 1 billion.
It's done without controlling people's free will.
But the modern term of "destiny" cannot be compared to the old biblical idea of "predestinate".
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