Predestination??

[Normann]

Was Jesus rude when He called the Pharisees blind guides?

No, He was forthright, because that was exactly what they were.

Now then, If I tell you that your view on salvation is heretical, and I have no basis in God's word to substantiate my argument, then yes, I am being rude, because I am implying that you are a heretic, when in fact you are not.

But if I have a basis for my refutation of it, I am being forthright, because I am correct in my assessment of it.

Of course, if I tell someone that he is an idiot because his argument is not correct, or logically sound, even if I am right that his argument is foolish, I am being rude.

But I am not being rude for telling him that his argument is unsound. Rather, I am being forthright.

...or it is rude only in the eyes of those that cannot come up with a forthright reply...

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Reformationist]

Here you are demonstrating your problem, that you don't pay attention to everything that is written.

On the contrary, I read your post very carefully. I just recognize it for what it is, and for the record, it clearly wasn't any attempt at "sharing what you know with me out of love for my soul."

Thus this is why you not only take the scriptures out of context, but also the words of those who are trying to open your eyes to the truth of what they are really saying on this matter--predestination.

wooba, I am well aware of what you, and everyone else, is saying on this matter. I've heard it thousands of times before. None of you are frontrunners in these views. My eyes are open, which is why I do not hold on to this faulty idea that man's choice plays any part in God's choice to save him. The salvation of the elect is a covenant between the members of the Godhead. Man's part in that covenant is that of passive recipient. You make his role in the process of no less impact than the decree of God Himself.

Go back and look at my post so that you can see that I also implied that you can be truthful and rude at the same time.

I was not aware that I had denied that you said that. Or is it that you are admitting to trying to be truthful but being rude at the same time?

If I don't share what I know with you out of love for your soul, then what good is my witness to you, even if I speak the truth?

I would say that your witness, in its own power, is fruitless. God, on the other hand, uses even the sinfully delivered truth to enlighten His elect.

God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

I already told you what I mean. If that isn't acceptable to you, then that isn't my problem.

And as for those verses not being clear, perhaps you should lay aside your bias before looking at them a second time, so that you can see that they are as clear as daylight.

Good Day, Woobadooba

You have told me what you mean tis is true, but the issue is you said that by implication Eph 1:11, means there is a "predetermined solution for sin". I am asking you to exergete the whole chapter.. and come away with a "predetermined solution for sin".

I will be more than happy to do the same with all your verses that you have posted, and see if they imply what you assert they do. Then we can exergete other passages if you like.

So, will you please start with Eph 1:1-15?

Hint the word "solution" does not apper in the text.

Implied is not "clear", we have to establish a basisfor such implications of the text, then see if the implication is nesissary with in the text based on what the text says.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Good Day, Woobadooba

You have told me what you mean tis is true, but the issue is you said that by implication Eph 1:11, means there is a "predetermined solution for sin". I am asking you to exergete the whole chapter.. and come away with a "predetermined solution for sin".

I will be more than happy to do the same with all your verses that you have posted, and see if they imply what you assert they do. Then we can exergete other passages if you like.

So, will you please start with Eph 1:1-15?

Hint the word "solution" does not apper in the text.

Implied is not "clear", we have to establish a basisfor such implications of the text, then see if the implication is nesissary with in the text based on what the text says.

Peace to u,

Bill

Oh come on now, why must we play these semantic games?

1. The word "purpose" appears in verse 11.

2. According to the context, His purpose is synonymous to His plan which is to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him." v. 10

 

[Reformationist]

1. The word "purpose" appears in verse 11.

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You are correct. The word "purpose" does appear in verse 11. Are you saying that you think that that supports the idea that it was a "predetermined solution for sin" which God predestined?

2. According to the context, His purpose is synonymous to His plan which is to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him." v. 10

His purpose and His plan are one and the same. What's your point?

 

[Beoga]

Normann is right. It would have been senseless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God if his salvation had already been predestined by God in disregard to his free will.

How is predestination and being born again in direct contradiction to one another? It is not a contradiction merely because you assert it. Predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation.

And if a man has to be born again to receive eternal life, that then means he has to do something to secure salvation. In this case he has to believe in Jesus Christ.

And so if God made it so even before that person existed, it would not be necessary for that person to do anything to secure by belief what God had already predestined to be prior to that person's existence.

Hence, Calvin was guilty of a non sequitur on this point of doctrine.

This shows ignorance of the Calvinist position. Again, predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation. God has made it so that it is through the means of belief/faith that God brings about the salvation of those that He predestined.

 

[Reformationist]

How is predestination and being born again in direct contradiction to one another? It is not a contradiction merely because you assert it. Predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation.



This shows ignorance of the Calvinists position. Again, predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation. God has made it so that it is through the means of belief/faith that God brings about the salvation of those that He predestined.

 

[woobadooba]

How is predestination and being born again in direct contradiction to one another? It is not a contradiction merely because you assert it. Predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation.

First of all, I never said it was.

Secondly, it all depends on how you define the words, and in what context you are using them.

This shows ignorance of the Calvinists position. Again, predestination is not salvation, but predestination is unto salvation.

When did I say predestination IS salvation?

And where in the Bible does the phraseology appear, "Predestined unto salvation"?

God has made it so that it is through the means of belief/faith that God brings about the salvation of those that He predestined.

If God predestined them to be saved prior to their existence, then belief isn't a means to bring about their salvation, since salvation was already theirs since the foundation of the world; and there is no sense at all in telling people to do something, like believe in Jesus Christ, when they can't help but to do that anyway because God predestined it thus.

 

[BBAS 64]

Oh come on now, why must we play these semantic games?

1. The word "purpose" appears in verse 11.

2. According to the context, His purpose is synonymous to His plan which is to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him." v. 10

Good day, Woob

Yeah, and the point is??

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Reformationist]

And where in the Bible does the phraseology appear, "Predestined unto salvation"?

To coin the phrase, "Why must we play these semantic games?" When the Bible speaks of God foreknowing, calling, predestining, justifying, and glorifying someone, who is it that you think is "glorified?" Do you believe that there are people that are glorified that are not, ultimately, saved?

When did I say predestination IS salvation?

Well, if not before now, you definitely say it right here:

If God predestined them to be saved prior to their existence, then belief isn't a means to bring about their salvation, since salvation was already theirs since the foundation of the world;

As little already clarified, being predestined is not the same thing as being saved.

and there is no sense at all in telling people to do something, like believe in Jesus Christ, when they can't help but to do that anyway because God predestined it thus.

Well, I will look forward to seeing you tell God that His demand for the elect to believe, coupled with His gracious gift of faith which invariably results in salvitic belief, is nonsensical. In the meantime, I'll leave you with the words of Augustine, who recognized that God demands of us that which we are morally incapable of providing and the provides what He demands:

“Oh God, demand what You will but supply what You demand.”

God bless

 

[Beoga]

First of all, I never said it was.

Secondly, it all depends on how you define the words, and in what context you are using them.

Okay, elaborate please.

When did I say predestination IS salvation?

You did say:
" it would not be necessary for that person to do anything to secure by belief what God had already predestined to be prior to that person's existence."
This gave the implication to me that it is your understanding that predestination in the Calvinist since is the only thing that is required and thus is the salvation of people.

And where in the Bible does the phraseology appear, "Predestined unto salvation"?

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I know that you are going to be upset because it does not "explicitly" state that "Predestined unto salvation," but the phrase "Predestined unto salvation" conveys the thought of Romans 8:29-30

If God predestined them to be saved prior to their existence, then belief isn't a means to bring about their salvation, since salvation was already theirs since the foundation of the world;

This is what gives me the idea that you believe that predestination is salvation. If this is not what you believe, you might want to choose your words more carefully. People were predestined or "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" not "we were saved before the foundation of the world." Again, predestination is unto salvation or predestination is the promise by God, His gaurentee, that at His chosen time He will bring about our salvation. You can say that belief "isn't a means," but Scripture states that Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith, and that is what the Reformed Christian believes.

and there is no sense at all in telling people to do something, like believe in Jesus Christ, when they can't help but to do that anyway because God predestined it thus.

Except that God has commanded that we preach the Gospel. He has also declared that evangelism is the means by which the Gospel is spread and through this spreading of the Gospel the Spirit works and regenerates. Who are you to say that there is no sense in what God wills or commands?

 

[woobadooba]

Good day, Woob

Yeah, and the point is??

Peace to u,

Bill

The point is: God did predetermine a plan for the sin problem.

 

[BBAS 64]

The point is: God did predetermine a plan for the sin problem.

Good Day, Woobadooba

But that is not what the text is saying, you are saying it is implied. You have yet to show a basis for the implication from the text.

I think ref. has answered that in one of his post.

Are you going to start from verse 1, or not

Pece to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Okay, elaborate please.

I already did that in another post. I am not going to repeat myself.

I know that you are going to be upset because it does not "explicitly" state that "Predestined unto salvation," but the phrase "Predestined unto salvation" conveys the thought of Romans 8:29-30

Unless you believe Jesus needs to be saved, it doesn't state this. It simply says that He predestined them to be conformed to His image, but not to salvation.

Also notice the word "foreknew", which implies that He knew the fate of these people prior to their existence because He is all knowing, and thus set the plan into motion that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. And this doesn't mean that they are forced against their will to be conformed, but that it is God's purpose that all who so desire to give their lives to Christ will
demonstrate their love for God by conforming to the image of His Son.

This is what gives me the idea that you believe that predestination is salvation. If this is not what you believe, you might want to choose your words more carefully.

No, it would be better for you to read my words more carefully. Don't expect others to change simply because you don't understand what they are saying. Instead, ask questions, and they will answer them accordingly. And as far as I am concerned I explained myself already. I think the issue here is that you just don't want to see the truth.

People were predestined or "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" not "we were saved before the foundation of the world." Again, predestination is unto salvation or predestination is the promise by God, His gaurentee, that at His chosen time He will bring about our salvation. You can say that belief "isn't a means," but Scripture states that Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith, and that is what the Reformed Christian believes.

You are really twisting what I said. Why do you do this?

I said that if we are to espouse your argument as being truthful, in that you had said that we are predestined unto salvation, and faith is God's means to bring about that salvation, then faith can't be the means, since we already had salvation in Christ prior to our existence. There is therefore no need to encourage people the believe in Christ, since they don't have a choice to believe otherwise because God predestined them to be what they are, either saved, or eternally damned.

Please pay attention to the arguments.

Except that God has commanded that we preach the Gospel. He has also declared that evangelism is the means by which the Gospel is spread and through this spreading of the Gospel the Spirit works and regenerates. Who are you to say that there is no sense in what God wills or commands?

There is no sense in preaching the gospel to a people who are already saved!

That is the point!

Your theology makes God look foolish.

 

[woobadooba]

Good Day, Woobadooba

But that is not what the text is saying, you are saying it is implied. You have yet to show a basis for the implication from the text.

I think ref. has answered that in one of his post.

Are you going to start from verse 1, or not

Pece to u,

Bill

I can see that it is a waste of time trying to convince you to open your eyes.

Have a good day.

 

[lmnop9876]

the word "foreknowledge" is used two times in Scripture (KJV, i don't know about the Greek):
[BIBLE="Acts 2:23"]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:[/BIBLE] [BIBLE="1 Peter 1:2"]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.[/BIBLE]
if foreknowledge is "determinate" in the first passage, then why not in the second passage?

 

[lmnop9876]

as I said somewhere else, the Reformed view is actually less harsh on those who haven't heard the Gospel than the non-Reformed view, because in the Reformed system of theology, God doesn't choose us based on whether we believe or not, but out of His own grace, mercy, and love, so those who haven't heard the Gospel may be among His elect, and He may choose to show mercy to them. in the "other" view, we are elected because God fore-sees that we will believe, that leaves out any possibility that those who haven't heard the Gospel can be elected, because they can't hear the Gospel.

 

[woobadooba]

in the Reformed system of theology, God doesn't choose us based on whether we believe or not, but out of His own grace, mercy, and love, so those who haven't heard the Gospel may be among His elect, and He may choose to show mercy to them. in the "other" view, we are elected because God fore-sees that we will believe, that leaves out any possibility that those who haven't heard the Gospel can be elected, because they can't hear the Gospel.

No it doesn't, because his foreknowledge doesn't dictate their actions. It is not responsible for their choices.

And He did not set the plan of salvation into motion because of their choices, but because of His love, which is gracious, and long suffering.

 

[BBAS 64]

I can see that it is a waste of time trying to convince you to open your eyes.

Have a good day.

Good Day, Woobadooba

I can understand your fustration, as I am spending my time trying to get you use Scripture in the context, to arrive at a biblical truth instead of using baseless implications. Which for some reason you are unwilling or unable to do.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

the word "foreknowledge" is used two times in Scripture (KJV, i don't know about the Greek):
[BIBLE="Acts 2:23"]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:[/BIBLE] [BIBLE="1 Peter 1:2"]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.[/BIBLE]
if foreknowledge is "determinate" in the first passage, then why not in the second passage?

Good Day, PJW

******** EDIT******

Incorrect usage refered to in my post, would hate to contribute to an error..
Peace to u,

Bill