Predestination??

[ContraMundum]

Yes and yes.
God chose Jacob before he had done any good because he loved him, equally he reprobated Esau before he had done any bad because he hated him (Romans 9).

Romans 9 is about the election of nations, not individuals. Context.

 

[lmnop9876]

..and more from him..

"He that made us without ourselves, will not save us without ourselves"

interesting

 

[ContraMundum]

so , a response to something seen as abrasive sarcastic is to reply in kind ?
Well , I apologise for getting off on the wrong foot.

OK.

Is this varifiable , I see no quotes from Arminian theologians .

It seems that they believe in TWO Elections , one temporary and one permanent .
I have never met an arminian who said that there are two elections (or two classes of Elect) where is this in scripture ?

I made a botch-up of that last post.

There is more than one kind of "election" in scripture, and most theologians that I know of would say so. For example, the election of Israel. This is all that Arminian theologs mean. I think the Calvinists have an idea of common grace, and Hodge even acknowledges prevenient grace, and this is a type of election in the broad sense.

I'll get better organised and find some citations a little later. I need to rummage through my dust-covered Arminian books. LOL

[/color]It just seems at least to me like an act of sophistry to say that the elect can fall away from salvation , but they weren't the ultimate final elect , for they were Elect and they were fallen elect and their Election meant nothing.

I agree. I do think it's sophistry too. However, I don't think the old Calvinists are any different.

 

[Normann]

for what it's worth (if anything) the following was quoted before the cross

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

but...

Quote: John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
and John 12 was refering to after the cross.

Very good...

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

But the Clvinist will tell you that the word all does not mean all.

It does mean "all" and it is the same Greek word used for "whosoever".

Salvation is for all men ever born, not just a pre-selected group.

pas, Greek
pas, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole :- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), × thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Full_Moon]

i wouldn't be too quick to call anyone an idiot ......... it is like calling someone a fool .......... have you no recollection of the warning Jesus gave us ?

'But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.' Mat 5:22

What makes you think I say it in anger? I only use a semi-strong word to hopefully have you take a look at the severity of what I'm saying. This is important stuff. (What is more important than knowing God?)

It is about the principle which is now lovily being repeated
"Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds from the mouth of the Father"

In other words, it is foolish to take one thing God has to say and use it to try and invalidate another thing God said. This is to make God a liar (and now I use a stronger word).

Just because we may not understand the doctrine (which means truth btw) of election and it's harmony with the doctrine of personal accountability doesn't mean that one is true and the other is false. Both are true.

Another way of saying this principle is "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One"

In other words, when we know God is Love. And when we know: God Just. Both are equally and fully true. For some go to make God a liar by saying His love undoes His justice. They say there is no hell or that no one is in it. Or perhaps they will say that it doesn't matter if we sin, for we are all saved. Not only does this contravene scripture (indeed for those who place more emphasis on Christ, He is the one who spoke most of the hell), but it denies who God is by what He Himself has declared. "My Justice shall not suffer"

And indeed, no sinner shall sit in the assembly of God. God will destroy the wicked but to the righteous He shall give eternal life.

 

[good4u]

You might want to elaborate on this because I could easily draw from this that you are saying that using ones mind in understanding and relaying the Gospel is bad. That it is bad to dwelve into the deep and hard to understand things of the Gospel because when one does that they become "intellects" or whatever. Is that what you were really trying to convey, because that is what it sounds like.

I don't have a problem with using your mind to understand...but I tire of those who use their intellect to word play and use it as a smoke screen not to understand another's position. A lot of game playing goes on here...I just am not interested as I have better things to do.

 

[tmcothran]

Look, I said idiot in the nicest possible way. I was specific in that to uphold one thing God says without upholding another is to be an idiot.

Someone is an idiot because they don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? That arguement strikes me as a bit idiotic.

If you are using bible verses to bring about both notions, and both notions are in the bible, then both are true and you are an idiot to even bother quoting the bible as true in the way you like it and false in the way you do not. God does not depend on whether you like Him or not.

Actually, note that I never used any Bible verses to prove my position. Primarily because if it is pointless in a case such as this. I will interpret verses one way according to my presuppositions, and others will interpret the verses there way. It seems pointless. Instead I used simple logic. I'll try this again. (if you still need help understanding what I am saying, try here: http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/). Free will and predestination (in the Calvinist sense) cannot both exist. Predestination (in the Calvinist sense) require that God intervene in a persons will. Free will, by definition, is autonomous. Nothing outside the will may compromise its ability to freely choose. So, if God, through predestination) alters the interior processes of the will, He may not, at the same time, not alter the processes of the will. A thing may not be both a and not a.

I am sure you once again say that the Bible "obviously" promulgates both free will and predeterminism, and that logic doesn't really matter, because that is what the Bible says. Well, I'm sorry, but if the Bible says the sun is really a dancing gnome, I wouldn't believe it. Even less is it possible for the rule of non-contradiction to be violated.

again: If you are going to quote from the bible as authoritative, and then use that authoritive knowledge from the bible to discredit other knowledge from the bible, is that not breaking some of the most simple logic of all? Or would you rewrite the bible and take out all the parts you don't like??

I'm not sure who you are getting me confused with, but again, nowhere did I quote the Bible. I quoted Dostoyevsky. And I have no wish to take any books out of the Bible. In fact, my Bible still has the books of the canon that early Protestant reformers took out. Does yours?

Besides that, it is obvious that people have different interpretations of the Bible, because the Bible does not interpret itself. No-one coming to the Bible is an empty slate, everyone has presuppositions that determine how they will interpret different parts of the Bible. The trick is to have the correct pre-suppositions.

People like you can maintain all you want that the Bible "obviously" says whatever it seems to you it says. And someone else can say the same thing. Because it is just as obvious to him. And you will never get anywhere.

Especially if you are so willing to abandon the most basic rules of logic.

whatever definitions you want to use, whatever meaning you want to put to words. These two things are true.

1. God's Will is Supreme. If He wants to save someone, they will be saved. If He wants to damn someone, then they will be damned. He is the creator of all things INCLUDING our wills and souls.

2. We are accountable for all our deeds and responsible for our choices. For God Himself, who made all things, also made us with the capacity to choose. He Himself will call every deed into account.

Both of these things are clearly stated and supported in the bible. To choose one over the other is to be partial and hypocritical. I used the word idiot because I don't see anyone here blatantly trying to make God a liar in His Word.

You may think that they both can't work, you may not understand and that is fine. I use the word idiot when someone has clear bible passages in front of them showing both to be true, and then goes to say that one part of the bible is true while the other isn't (thus invalidating the bible altogether, not to mention inventing a god of one's own understanding)

You say that God's will is supreme. I don't think anyone would ever deny that. The difference is in the nature of the supremacy of His will. You say that whatever he wants will happen. Do you have kids? What if one of them got leukemia and died. And went to Hell because he rejected God. Is that God's will? Would you love a God so cruel as that? Should you?

Of course not. Because that wouldn't be God, but simply an all-powerful spiritual being. And certainly not a good or loving one.

Your God is not mine. He is not only all-powerful, but unable to grant autonomy to creation, men, will, and souls. You give Him the power to do anything but create autonomous beings. Moreover, He is not just. Certainly he is not love.

How is infinite condemnation appropriate for finite sinning? The punishment would be, in fact, infinitely out of proportion to the crime. That is not justice. Some may rejoin that God's ways are higher than ours, so we are not meant to understand. Certainly His ways are higher, but that does not change the fact that such inproportionate punishment is not justice. It is, in fact, the highest injustice.

How is a Divine desire for some to go to hell love? Like justice, it is not love, but the most putrid hatred imaginable. How could God be more hateful toward the someone than cause them to go to hell? How could He act more despicably towards them? Give me an example.

God is the creator of all, but not the determinator of all. He has created this world as an autonomous sphere, which He acts in, but does not control. Because man chose to reject God (against His will) this world fell to the control of evil principalities and powers. The powers that govern this world are not God, they are in rebellion to Him.

If all that happens in this world is an expression of God's will, then there is no meaningful distinction between God's will and creation. Indeed, creation would ontologically be the same as God's will, and us with it. Since God's will is a part of God, then it follows that creation is a part of God. This is pantheism, not Christianity.

Things have to exist outside God's control or they have no being of their own. And I am sure you wish to avoid pantheism.

This may sound harsh, but since you decided to use the word idiot I will be blunt. It is people like you that give atheism its credibility. People look at the world and see the many horrors and experience terrible sufferings. When they look for the meaning of, they see people like you who they believe to represent Christianity telling them that it is God's will. Worse, that it is for His selfish glory. And they hate Him. And they should.

This is not the God of Christianity, the God of Justice, and certainly not the God of Love. It is a powerful, selfish, cruel power with a sadistic personality who needs beings to praise him to properly wallow in his pride, and who needs beings to suffer to satisfy his lust for pain. If a deity such as this rules the universe, like Ivan of the Brothers Karamosov, I stand with the atheists in rebellion to him. Out of moral principle.

Fortunately there is a just God, one of Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness. As has been said before He has the power to create autonomous beings. The difference is this: You find it so necessary to defend His Power: I find it necessary to primarily defend His Goodness. God is just, but he is not justice. He is Love.

 

[mlqurgw]

Someone is an idiot because they don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? That arguement strikes me as a bit idiotic.




Actually, note that I never used any Bible verses to prove my position. Primarily because if it is pointless in a case such as this. I will interpret verses one way according to my presuppositions, and others will interpret the verses there way. It seems pointless. Instead I used simple logic. I'll try this again. (if you still need help understanding what I am saying, try here: http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/). Free will and predestination (in the Calvinist sense) cannot both exist. Predestination (in the Calvinist sense) require that God intervene in a persons will. Free will, by definition, is autonomous. Nothing outside the will may compromise its ability to freely choose. So, if God, through predestination) alters the interior processes of the will, He may not, at the same time, not alter the processes of the will. A thing may not be both a and not a.

I am sure you once again say that the Bible "obviously" promulgates both free will and predeterminism, and that logic doesn't really matter, because that is what the Bible says. Well, I'm sorry, but if the Bible says the sun is really a dancing gnome, I wouldn't believe it. Even less is it possible for the rule of non-contradiction to be violated.



I'm not sure who you are getting me confused with, but again, nowhere did I quote the Bible. I quoted Dostoyevsky. And I have no wish to take any books out of the Bible. In fact, my Bible still has the books of the canon that early Protestant reformers took out. Does yours?

Besides that, it is obvious that people have different interpretations of the Bible, because the Bible does not interpret itself. No-one coming to the Bible is an empty slate, everyone has presuppositions that determine how they will interpret different parts of the Bible. The trick is to have the correct pre-suppositions.

People like you can maintain all you want that the Bible "obviously" says whatever it seems to you it says. And someone else can say the same thing. Because it is just as obvious to him. And you will never get anywhere.

Especially if you are so willing to abandon the most basic rules of logic.




You say that God's will is supreme. I don't think anyone would ever deny that. The difference is in the nature of the supremacy of His will. You say that whatever he wants will happen. Do you have kids? What if one of them got leukemia and died. And went to Hell because he rejected God. Is that God's will? Would you love a God so cruel as that? Should you?

Of course not. Because that wouldn't be God, but simply an all-powerful spiritual being. And certainly not a good or loving one.

Your God is not mine. He is not only all-powerful, but unable to grant autonomy to creation, men, will, and souls. You give Him the power to do anything but create autonomous beings. Moreover, He is not just. Certainly he is not love.

How is infinite condemnation appropriate for finite sinning? The punishment would be, in fact, infinitely out of proportion to the crime. That is not justice. Some may rejoin that God's ways are higher than ours, so we are not meant to understand. Certainly His ways are higher, but that does not change the fact that such inproportionate punishment is not justice. It is, in fact, the highest injustice.

How is a Divine desire for some to go to hell love? Like justice, it is not love, but the most putrid hatred imaginable. How could God be more hateful toward the someone than cause them to go to hell? How could He act more despicably towards them? Give me an example.

God is the creator of all, but not the determinator of all. He has created this world as an autonomous sphere, which He acts in, but does not control. Because man chose to reject God (against His will) this world fell to the control of evil principalities and powers. The powers that govern this world are not God, they are in rebellion to Him.

If all that happens in this world is an expression of God's will, then there is no meaningful distinction between God's will and creation. Indeed, creation would ontologically be the same as God's will, and us with it. Since God's will is a part of God, then it follows that creation is a part of God. This is pantheism, not Christianity.

Things have to exist outside God's control or they have no being of their own. And I am sure you wish to avoid pantheism.

This may sound harsh, but since you decided to use the word idiot I will be blunt. It is people like you that give atheism its credibility. People look at the world and see the many horrors and experience terrible sufferings. When they look for the meaning of, they see people like you who they believe to represent Christianity telling them that it is God's will. Worse, that it is for His selfish glory. And they hate Him. And they should.

This is not the God of Christianity, the God of Justice, and certainly not the God of Love. It is a powerful, selfish, cruel power with a sadistic personality who needs beings to praise him to properly wallow in his pride, and who needs beings to suffer to satisfy his lust for pain. If a deity such as this rules the universe, like Ivan of the Brothers Karamosov, I stand with the atheists in rebellion to him. Out of moral principle.

Fortunately there is a just God, one of Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness. As has been said before He has the power to create autonomous beings. The difference is this: You find it so necessary to defend His Power: I find it necessary to primarily defend His Goodness. God is just, but he is not justice. He is Love.

You do alright in logic till you get here and then you commit the logical fallacy of an appeal to emotion. Logic has nothing to do with emotion. Prove your premise by logic if you are so bent on logic.

 

[Full_Moon]

Wow man, quite the post. Righto!!!!

Someone is an idiot because they don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? That arguement strikes me as a bit idiotic.

That is not what I said fellow. What do I care if someone agrees with me or not? That is not what I said at all. (and I don't even recall if I was addressing you, but hey if it fits...)

Actually, note that I never used any Bible verses to prove my position. Primarily because if it is pointless in a case such as this. I will interpret verses one way according to my presuppositions, and others will interpret the verses there way. It seems pointless. Instead I used simple logic. I'll try this again. (if you still need help understanding what I am saying, try here: http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/). Free will and predestination (in the Calvinist sense) cannot both exist. Predestination (in the Calvinist sense) require that God intervene in a persons will. Free will, by definition, is autonomous. Nothing outside the will may compromise its ability to freely choose. So, if God, through predestination) alters the interior processes of the will, He may not, at the same time, not alter the processes of the will. A thing may not be both a and not a.

You know, I don't know what the Calvanist sense is nor do I care. Who the hell is Calvin anyways (is he here that he should say something)? Similarily if we are to have a Christian discussion without biblical basis, why should we bother? If we are to take knowledge from God that the bible doesn't possess or agree with, then what kind of knowledge is that? Why anyone can make up whatever they want. god could be a tyrant in purple underwear if someone supposed him to be in their arguement, but that is no god at all.

I am sure you once again say that the Bible "obviously" promulgates both free will and predeterminism, and that logic doesn't really matter, because that is what the Bible says. Well, I'm sorry, but if the Bible says the sun is really a dancing gnome, I wouldn't believe it. Even less is it possible for the rule of non-contradiction to be violated.

So be it, what do we have to discuss then?

I'm not sure who you are getting me confused with, but again, nowhere did I quote the Bible. I quoted Dostoyevsky. And I have no wish to take any books out of the Bible. In fact, my Bible still has the books of the canon that early Protestant reformers took out. Does yours?

I'm sorry if I responded to you and then spoke generally (or was this the specific post you reponded to?)
If you do not awknowledge the bible, what is your basis of godly knowledge? Here we are talking about God are we not? Predestination vs free will, what has God said? What has he done?

God is Truth. There is no other.

Besides that, it is obvious that people have different interpretations of the Bible, because the Bible does not interpret itself. No-one coming to the Bible is an empty slate, everyone has presuppositions that determine how they will interpret different parts of the Bible. The trick is to have the correct pre-suppositions.

People like you can maintain all you want that the Bible "obviously" says whatever it seems to you it says. And someone else can say the same thing. Because it is just as obvious to him. And you will never get anywhere.

Especially if you are so willing to abandon the most basic rules of logic.

If I am out of line, show me how I am out of line. However, if I say it is obvious and it is, don't tell me that just because everyone doesn't agree all the time that it isn't. SHOW ME how it isn't.

You say that God's will is supreme. I don't think anyone would ever deny that. The difference is in the nature of the supremacy of His will. You say that whatever he wants will happen. Do you have kids? What if one of them got leukemia and died. And went to Hell because he rejected God. Is that God's will? Would you love a God so cruel as that? Should you?

Now we have the crux of your biblical rejection perhaps. More so, the crux of your rejection of reality?
*********************************************************

You are talking to someone who's father passed away recently, indeed within this year my house burnt down and I will not list the rest. But do I resent God for such things? Far be it from me: I will praise God in all things, for He is the Lord of all things.

From God I know: God is Good. This stands true forever and ever as He is the Lord. The only god who is not good is the god of your imagination, no god at all. This is a hard thing for us I do recognize, and I will not degrade you or call you an idiot for this. No, I will not even say a word to you for your questioning of His Good purpose. That is between Him and you, but I will pray that he bring the peace from Him which comes in knowing Him.

The Lord is Good.

Of course not. Because that wouldn't be God, but simply an all-powerful spiritual being. And certainly not a good or loving one.

Your God is not mine. He is not only all-powerful, but unable to grant autonomy to creation, men, will, and souls. You give Him the power to do anything but create autonomous beings. Moreover, He is not just. Certainly he is not love.

I suggest you do not worship anything that you do not believe is of Love. For whatever you have imagined God to be, that is not God at all, but rather a figmant of your imagination. Here we will speak of the True God who is Love. There is no other.

How is infinite condemnation appropriate for finite sinning? The punishment would be, in fact, infinitely out of proportion to the crime. That is not justice. Some may rejoin that God's ways are higher than ours, so we are not meant to understand. Certainly His ways are higher, but that does not change the fact that such inproportionate punishment is not justice. It is, in fact, the highest injustice.

Can you count your own sins on your fingers? The Lord has revealed my own to me, and they were as a bottomless ocean. By His Perfect standard of Righteousness, I will never attain such on my own. For me to say that I deserve to be in His presense forever and ever is to lie.

Is not heaven said to be a place where there are no tears? But yet I hurt others sometimes, yes even once in heaven and it would no longer be. Never will the unrighteous sit in the assembly of the Lord. And anyone who loves wickedness more than righteousness, will they then curse God who gives them exactly what they deserve?

Is not God making a free offer when he says ANYONE who believes in Him shall have eternal life? So then, for those who reject Him, who will accuse God of wrongdoing for rejecting them? If someone doesn't want to be in the presense of God and so God casts them out of his presense, who can say that is not Just?

How is a Divine desire for some to go to hell love? Like justice, it is not love, but the most putrid hatred imaginable. How could God be more hateful toward the someone than cause them to go to hell? How could He act more despicably towards them? Give me an example.

God is Just, he does no wrong. "Is it not your ways, O man, which are unjust and My ways which are Just?" -The Lord.

You want an example of who deserves to go to hell? Anyone who chooses it freely. Anyone who says "I do not desire God, His Love, His Mercy, His Justice" So God will not give that person those things if it be in His Justice.

If I offer you a gift and you do not accept it, and we call that gift heaven and the lacking of it hell. Did you not choose to reject the gift? So why then do you accuse God of evil?

God is the creator of all, but not the determinator of all. He has created this world as an autonomous sphere, which He acts in, but does not control. Because man chose to reject God (against His will) this world fell to the control of evil principalities and powers. The powers that govern this world are not God, they are in rebellion to Him.

enough is enough. You're knowledge is not from God and anything not from God is false. He IS the Almighty Lord. The god you speak of is no god but your own god.

If all that happens in this world is an expression of God's will, then there is no meaningful distinction between God's will and creation. Indeed, creation would ontologically be the same as God's will, and us with it. Since God's will is a part of God, then it follows that creation is a part of God. This is pantheism, not Christianity.

Things have to exist outside God's control or they have no being of their own. And I am sure you wish to avoid pantheism.

This may sound harsh, but since you decided to use the word idiot I will be blunt. It is people like you that give atheism its credibility. People look at the world and see the many horrors and experience terrible sufferings. When they look for the meaning of, they see people like you who they believe to represent Christianity telling them that it is God's will. Worse, that it is for His selfish glory. And they hate Him. And they should.

It is you who make God out to be a criminal. How can you say that it is because of me that people hate God?

This is not the God of Christianity, the God of Justice, and certainly not the God of Love. It is a powerful, selfish, cruel power with a sadistic personality who needs beings to praise him to properly wallow in his pride, and who needs beings to suffer to satisfy his lust for pain. If a deity such as this rules the universe, like Ivan of the Brothers Karamosov, I stand with the atheists in rebellion to him. Out of moral principle.

And if you think your ways are greater than His, and he leaves you to your own ways, then what excuse will you give?

Fortunately there is a just God, one of Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness. As has been said before He has the power to create autonomous beings. The difference is this: You find it so necessary to defend His Power: I find it necessary to primarily defend His Goodness. God is just, but he is not justice. He is Love.

Yes indeed, right back to the start.

WILL A GOD OF GOODNESS LET THE GUILTY GO FREE AND THE WICKED GO UNPUNISHED?

Should you be a god here, would you free all those in prisons who are there because they harm others? Will you sweep injustice under the rug?

FAR BE IT FROM THE JUDGE OF THE EARTH TO DO WRONG.

Maybe you have a problem with justice because you know you are condemned by your own deeds? And will you change God to fit your desires? That the guilty should go free?

You say we have a free will, but then say there is no justice. Why you must think this is heaven? Where all kinds of evil are done and the wicked prosper? Surely not.

As good destroys evil. So all the wicked will be cast into the fire at the end of days. No more will the children of God suffer. No more will the wicked prosper. That is the promise of the Lord. That is salvation. The Lord is Just.

 

[tmcothran]

I'm sorry if I responded to you and then spoke generally (or was this the specific post you reponded to?)
If you do not awknowledge the bible, what is your basis of godly knowledge? Here we are talking about God are we not? Predestination vs free will, what has God said? What has he done?

God is Truth. There is no other..

I do acknowledge the Bible. Because I believe it to be true I know that no theology which is drawn from it (such as a combination of free will and predestination) can violate the rules of logic. Free will and predestination (in the sense that it is predeterminate) are mutually exclusive.

You are talking to someone who's father passed away recently, indeed within this year my house burnt down and I will not list the rest. But do I resent God for such things? Far be it from me: I will praise God in all things, for He is the Lord of all things.

It was completely inappropriate for me to bring any personal sufferings you may have had into a debate. I apologize for my insensitivity, and thank you for not responding in kind.

From God I know: God is Good. This stands true forever and ever as He is the Lord. The only god who is not good is the god of your imagination, no god at all. This is a hard thing for us I do recognize, and I will not degrade you or call you an idiot for this. No, I will not even say a word to you for your questioning of His Good purpose. That is between Him and you, but I will pray that he bring the peace from Him which comes in knowing Him.

God is good. That is why I reject predeterminism. God cannot both be entirely good and partially evil. If God glories in human sufferings He is evil. If God sends people to hell to suffer indefinitely for finite sins, He is evil. But He is Good, and therefore not evil. Therefore He does not glory in human sufferings, nor send people to hell (in the sense of double predestination). It is precisely God’s goodness which I am trying to defend.

Can you count your own sins on your fingers? The Lord has revealed my own to me, and they were as a bottomless ocean. By His Perfect standard of Righteousness, I will never attain such on my own. For me to say that I deserve to be in His presense forever and ever is to lie.

I cannot count my sins, not because they are uncountable, but because of the insufficiency of my memory. I have only had a finite amount of sinning, because I have only lived (and will only live) for a finite amount of years. The punishments of Hell are eternal, and therefore they will be infinitely out of proportion to any humans sin.

Is not God making a free offer when he says ANYONE who believes in Him shall have eternal life? So then, for those who reject Him, who will accuse God of wrongdoing for rejecting them? If someone doesn't want to be in the presense of God and so God casts them out of his presense, who can say that is not Just?

It is only just if Free Will remains inviolate. If God were willing to intervene in free will, and does so for some, then He must have a reason for not doing so for all. He must want some to be damned. If that is the case, then He is not fully good. This is why predestination impugns the character of God.

It is you who make God out to be a criminal. How can you say that it is because of me that people hate God?

I shouldn’t have said “It’s people like you…”, that is an ad hominem attack, and was inappropriate. However, it is because of theologies that identify God’s will with the happenings (bad and Good) of the cosmos that people are atheists. They see horrible things, and they are told that God is the cause of them. What are they to do? The only good responses are to deny the existence of God, of else to hate Him. Or else, by some sort of transcendent form of Stockholm Syndrome, they accept that corrupt god to escape what further tortures he could inflict.

WILL A GOD OF GOODNESS LET THE GUILTY GO FREE AND THE WICKED GO UNPUNISHED?

Should you be a god here, would you free all those in prisons who are there because they harm others? Will you sweep injustice under the rug?

Of course justice must not be swept under the rug. But if God intervenes in the will to save some of the wicked, why not the others? The only reasons are contrary to the nature of God.

 

[Normann]

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Born after being born, therefore not saved until born again.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Reformationist]

Wow. This thread went quite a few pages in the last couple of days. Oh well, I'll leave it to the rest of you. Enjoy.

God bless

 

[Full_Moon]

I do acknowledge the Bible. Because I believe it to be true I know that no theology which is drawn from it (such as a combination of free will and predestination) can violate the rules of logic. Free will and predestination (in the sense that it is predeterminate) are mutually exclusive.

Would you consider that God's foolishness is higher than man's wisdom?
To be honest I am not sure how you are defining free will and predetermination. Like I said, who is Calvin and what does he have to do with biblical truths?

Did you read my original post on this thread? (back a few pages)
If you are to tell me that it is illogical then tell me why. If my words are not true then disprove them. You sound as though you may know of the rules of logic

It was completely inappropriate for me to bring any personal sufferings you may have had into a debate. I apologize for my insensitivity, and thank you for not responding in kind.

I did not consider it a personal attack but thought you to be making a point in emotion. As of yet I have had no child to die of a disease. I'm sure that would be terrible. But I will let you know not by what has happen with my father or otherwise, but by caring about things that I am one who knows suffering. AND I know that the Lord is the Almighty God and that all happens according to His Perfect Will. This may not make sense to you now, but listen to God in all that He says. There is no end to His Perfect logic (indeed our logic cannot even begin to reach Him). Let it be a sign to you that it shall be impossible to prove that which is true to be false.

God is good. That is why I reject predeterminism. God cannot both be entirely good and partially evil. If God glories in human sufferings He is evil. If God sends people to hell to suffer indefinitely for finite sins, He is evil. But He is Good, and therefore not evil. Therefore He does not glory in human sufferings, nor send people to hell (in the sense of double predestination). It is precisely God’s goodness which I am trying to defend.

God does not desire the death of the wicked, which is why He says repent. But the wicked will surely perish. The Lord says "My Justice shall not suffer"
Observe: we all die. Only through Jesus Christ will we not taste death.

I cannot count my sins, not because they are uncountable, but because of the insufficiency of my memory. I have only had a finite amount of sinning, because I have only lived (and will only live) for a finite amount of years. The punishments of Hell are eternal, and therefore they will be infinitely out of proportion to any humans sin.

Unless God has shown you, you do not even know the depths of one of your sins. Indeed you have not yet experienced the full and Just Wrath of God for a sin. We know this because you are still alive. But I know this because it is Christ who has suffered the full depth of a sin which was due to YOU.
Can you not believe that a single sin warrants death? For a single sin is the rejection of God and His Truth. As you believe in free will you will know what happens when someone rejects God.

Is not God making a free offer when he says ANYONE who believes in Him shall have eternal life? So then, for those who reject Him, who will accuse God of wrongdoing for rejecting them? If someone doesn't want to be in the presense of God and so God casts them out of his presense, who can say that is not Just?

Yes God is making an open and universal offer to all those called. And though many are called, few are chosen.

Anyone who believes in Him shall have eternal life. And those that reject Him cannot accuse God of wrongdoing because they rejected Him.
Yes you are correct in saying ... did I write this that I am responding to? hmmm, I'm finding you almost too agreeable...

It is only just if Free Will remains inviolate. If God were willing to intervene in free will, and does so for some, then He must have a reason for not doing so for all. He must want some to be damned. If that is the case, then He is not fully good. This is why predestination impugns the character of God.

Every single molecule of existence was planned out by God. Before you were formed He knew you, and then He formed you. Before you were saved, He knew you were to be saved, because He saved you. As He is the beggining and the End, there is nothing He does not know. He chose you before creation began. You who believe in Him, it was He who chose you so do not boast!!!

And for he who has rejected God, they cannot blame God for thier own blood is on their own heads (along with the blood of the saints they have murdered). Paul puts this nicely (well bluntly, but I like it)

Who are you O man to talk back to God? Shall the pot say to the pot-maker: why did you make me this way? Can not the pot-maker make some for noble purposes and others for common???

So to if God creates a vessel designed for destruction, who will say God is unjust in destroying it? Tell me if you're head is too thick with your own ideas of justice. Recal after the prophet Ezekiel said God does not desire the death of the wicked, that the Lord also spoke "Is it not your ways O man, which are unjust, and My Ways which are Just????" (something like that)

Isaiah says "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME"

again Paul quotes "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day."
David says "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs forever"

So you will fight with God and I understand. You fight with your heart and you oppose His Ways. And you will see how it is HE WHO MADE YOU AS YOU ARE, and that the Lord is Just. It is because you seek the Lord that He will seek you. It is because you fight against God that He will bless you, rebuke you and teach you His Ways. For you belong to the Lord. Glory be to God.

I shouldn’t have said “It’s people like you…”, that is an ad hominem attack, and was inappropriate. However, it is because of theologies that identify God’s will with the happenings (bad and Good) of the cosmos that people are atheists. They see horrible things, and they are told that God is the cause of them. What are they to do? The only good responses are to deny the existence of God, of else to hate Him. Or else, by some sort of transcendent form of Stockholm Syndrome, they accept that corrupt god to escape what further tortures he could inflict.

One who rejects God will also reject His works. You cannot get away from this atheist reaction no matter what. Anyone who says positively (if we are using that definition of an atheist) that there is no God is already a liar, for there is a God who is both merciful and gracious, for them to say there is no god is for them to lie, because they know not what they speak of and merely make things up. But it is, as I know you are aware, not just atheists who reject God's works. As you say, who can accept, while their child has died of a disease, that this was God's Will?? We have less a problem praising God when he gives us money, health and things we consider good. What a great problem we have praising God for suffering, hardship and things we consider evil. But who will accuse God of evil? Does not all come from God? DID HE NOT CREATE ALL THINGS SEEN AND UNSEEN? Who will you tell the atheists is responsible for the earthquake? The devil, who has somehow overpowered God? Or will you tell them it is because of themselves and that God must surely hate them? Does he not teach us by our suffering, hardship and other things we consider evil? Is not the compassionate one someone who knows of these things and accepts them? When teaching children we must always be honest (children spiritually). They will eventually figure out that even Satan was created by God, there is no escaping the natural revelation of His Almighty Power in His divine creation.

Do you plan on reading psalm 107? I pray the Lord's wisdom for you in it.

Of course justice must not be swept under the rug. But if God intervenes in the will to save some of the wicked, why not the others? The only reasons are contrary to the nature of God.

It is one and only thing which I am trying to expound to you. I am but dust and cannot teach you a thing. Yet God, who teaches all things, is my Lord. It is not the nature of the Lord which is contravened, it is your understanding of the nature of the Lord.
I speak in a way that you must be humble to understand. And indeed if you will be angry with me, may God use that to humble you as well. Let your understanding be humbled so that you may have room for His understanding.

I speak to you not to Lord over you. For I do hope to learn from you in the Spirit. As I write to you I am learning from the Spirit as it goes along.

There was a time where I fought against God over this. But as He put me to shame I recieved from him what I value more than the highest human understanding. There is a peace about what life has to offer that comes in understanding.

And I will praise the Lord for all He has done with my father. I will praise the Lord for my afflictions. I will praise the Lord for all the good and the bad. For the good delights me and the bad teaches me to delight (which says nothing of it anyways). I will praise the Lord in how the grass blows in the wind. I will praise the Lord when the towers crash to the earth again.

I will praise the Lord for the His Peace that defies all human understanding.

 

[Full_Moon]

Wow. This thread went quite a few pages in the last couple of days. Oh well, I'll leave it to the rest of you. Enjoy.

God bless

You are welcome to enjoy..

 

[Beoga]

Born after being born, therefore not saved until born again.

What?

 

[woobadooba]

What?

Normann is right. It would have been senseless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God if his salvation had already been predestined by God in disregard to his free will.

And if a man has to be born again to receive eternal life, that then means he has to do something to secure salvation. In this case he has to believe in Jesus Christ.

And so if God made it so even before that person existed, it would not be necessary for that person to do anything to secure by belief what God had already predestined to be prior to that person's existence.

Hence, Calvin was guilty of a non sequitur on this point of doctrine.

 

[mlqurgw]

Normann is right. It would have been senseless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God if his salvation had already been predestined by God in disregard to his free will.

And if a man has to be born again to receive eternal life, that then means he has to do something to secure salvation. In this case he has to believe in Jesus Christ.

And so if God made it so even before that person existed, it would not be necessary for that person to do anything to secure by belief what God had already predestined to be prior to that person's existence.

Hence, Calvin was guilty of a non sequitur on this point of doctrine.

Deny it all you wish but you just espoused salvation by works.

 

[woobadooba]

Deny it all you wish but you just espoused salvation by works.

No, I espouse what the Bible teaches, that salvation is conditional.

You see, there is a difference between conditional salvation, and salvation by works.

Salvation by works is man's attempt to merit God's favor in his own way
with the intent to secure salvation.

Conditional salvation is man obtaining salvation God's way. In this case, God's way is to believe in Jesus Christ!

Until you learn to see the difference between the two, you will not come to understand the fullness of the gospel message.

 

[pjalford]

The way I've heard it taught is that God has predestined a group for heaven, but He also wants to give everyone else a chance to accept Christ and be able to enter Heaven because He doesn't want anyone to perish. However - there is the matter of that free will - we were created with the opportunity to choose for ourselves - otherwise we would just be robots.

 

[woobadooba]

The way I've heard it taught is that God has predestined a group for heaven, but He also wants to give everyone else a chance to accept Christ and be able to enter Heaven because He doesn't want anyone to perish. However - there is the matter of that free will - we were created with the opportunity to choose for ourselves - otherwise we would just be robots.

Indeed!

He predestined us in the sense that He predetermined a solution to the sin problem, which He must have known would exist even prior to creating anything at all, thus giving all humankind an opportunity to come to accept this righteus plan, to be conformed to His image, which is made manifest in the church, Christ being the head of it.

Hence, those who make the choice to accept that predetermined plan, are just as good as being predestined to it, not in the sense that they had no choice in the matter, but in the context of faith, which acknowledges the omniscience of God.