Predestination??

[BBAS 64]

Indeed!

He predestined us in the sense that He predetermined a solution to the sin problem, which He must have known would exist even prior to creating anything at all, thus giving all humankind an opportunity to come to accept this righteus plan, to be conformed to His image, which is made manifest in the church, Christ being the head of it.

Hence, those who make the choice to accept that predetermined plan, are just as good as being predestined to it, not in the sense that they had no choice in the matter, but in the context of faith, which acknowledges the omniscience of God.

Good Day, woobadooba

Where in Scriputure does it say "predetermined" a solution? In a sense the word for predetermined and predestined are the same greek word so there is sense they are the "same".

Those who "are" conformed are predeterimed to be so.. Rom 8

Hence the misunderstanding of the usage of the words, leads to begging questions as to a "plan" being predeterimed, which there is no Scripture that says that.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Reformationist]

Just for the record, for those who assume that God merely "predetermined a solution to the sin problem," the Bible is explicitly contradicts such a claim and, instead, reveals that God establishes that it is individuals that He has predestined:

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29,30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I pray this helps the discussion.

God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

Just for the record, for those who assume that God merely "predetermined a solution to the sin problem," the Bible is explicitly contradicts such a claim and, instead, reveals that God establishes that it is individuals that He has predestined:

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29,30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I pray this helps the discussion.

God bless

Good Day, Ref

Just to add an other, if I may

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Good Day, woobadooba

Where in Scriputure does it say "predetermined" a solution?

It doesn't say "predetermined a solution", anywhere in scripture, but if you look at the following three verses you will see that the thought that I disclosed is implied:

"All who dwell on the earth will worship Him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." Eph. 1:11

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Rom. 8:29

 

[Reformationist]

We are all in agreement that God has a purpose and that He has established a means by which that purpose will be accomplished. We are merely trying to provide Scripture supporting the view that it God has appointed individuals as a part of His purpose in the work of Christ.

God bless

 

[BBAS 64]

It doesn't say "predetermined a solution", anywhere in scripture, but if you look at the following three verses you will see that the thought that I disclosed is implied:

"All who dwell on the earth will worship Him, whose names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." Eph. 1:11

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Rom. 8:29

Good Day, Woobadooba

Why do you use the less clear to imply some thing when there are other verses that clearly contridict the implication of less clear verses?

Ref and I have posted some very clear passages.

I would like to look at Eph. Chapter 1 from the verses you posted as the others can be looked at later if you like or may be some one elese will take those up.

Eph. 1

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Shoot I have to go I am at work, and will continue when I get home. If you would be so kind as to post your understand of this chapter verse by verse, I will do the same and we will see where we end up in verse 11.

Sorry!

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[woobadooba]

Good Day, Woobadooba

Why do you use the less clear to imply some thing when there are other verses that clearly contridict the implication of less clear verses?

Ref and I have posted some very clear passages.

I would like to look at Eph. Chapter 1 from the verses you posted as the others can be looked at later if you like or may be some one elese will take those up.

Eph. 1

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Shoot I have to go I am at work, and will continue when I get home. If you would be so kind as to post your understand of this chapter verse by verse, I will do the same and we will see where we end up in verse 11.

Sorry!

Peace to u,

Bill

I already told you what I mean. If that isn't acceptable to you, then that isn't my problem.

And as for those verses not being clear, perhaps you should lay aside your bias before looking at them a second time, so that you can see that they are as clear as daylight.

 

[Full_Moon]

Now I'm really curious. After reading yet another host of verses revealing the Almighty Power of God AND what is required of us in choice: I just wonder if I might ask a quick poll.

Who here sees only the revelation of choice?
Who here sees only the revelation of predetermination?
Who is simply confused?
Who here sees both revealed in scripture? (without contradiction)



Please cast your votes if you care to share, just wanting to know numbers.


btw, really great thread.
God Bless

 

[Reformationist]

I already told you what I mean. If that isn't acceptable to you, then that isn't my problem.

And as for those verses not being clear, perhaps you should lay aside your bias before looking at them a second time, so that you can see that they are as clear as daylight.

Why am I not surprised that you have responded with such hateful rhetoric?

You aren't aware of my past dealings with this person[Reformationist], so there is insight into his comment that only I, and others who have been abused by his [Reformationist] rhetoric before can spot.

Therefore, I will not apologize for speaking the truth.

And yes, it is easy to spot sin when someone is being blatantly rude and antagonistic.

Hmmm...ironic. YOU castigated ME for being rude.

 

[Reformationist]

Now I'm really curious. After reading yet another host of verses revealing the Almighty Power of God AND what is required of us in choice: I just wonder if I might ask a quick poll.

Who here sees only the revelation of choice?
Who here sees only the revelation of predetermination?
Who is simply confused?
Who here sees both revealed in scripture? (without contradiction)



Please cast your votes if you care to share, just wanting to know numbers.


btw, really great thread.
God Bless

Choice in what? Predetermination in what?

God bless

 

[DavetheProphet]

I believe in a combination of both. I believe that God made everything, and He knew about everything that was going to happen throughout our time here on earth. Seeing what He made and how it would progress, He chooses to intervene when necessary. He gives us our own choice to follow Him, and those who trust God let Him guide their lives. If it were total freedom, it would mean God wouldn't care. If it were total control, it would mean we wouldn't truly be loving Him.

 

[woobadooba]

Hmmm...ironic. YOU castigated ME for being rude.

Being rude and being forthright are two different things.

 

[Reformationist]

Being rude and being forthright are two different things.

LOL! I totally understand. When you're rude, you simply call it "being forthright." Good one.

 

[woobadooba]

LOL! I totally understand. When you're rude, you simply call it "being forthright." Good one.

Was Jesus rude when He called the Pharisees blind guides?

No, He was forthright, because that was exactly what they were.

Now then, If I tell you that your view on salvation is heretical, and I have no basis in God's word to substantiate my argument, then yes, I am being rude, because I am implying that you are a heretic, when in fact you are not.

But if I have a basis for my refutation of it, I am being forthright, because I am correct in my assessment of it.

Of course, if I tell someone that he is an idiot because his argument is not correct, or logically sound, even if I am right that his argument is foolish, I am being rude.

But I am not being rude for telling him that his argument is unsound. Rather, I am being forthright.

 

[Full_Moon]

Was Jesus rude when He called the Pharisees blind guides?

No, He was forthright, because that was exactly what they were.

Now then, If I tell you that your view on salvation is heretical, and I have no basis in God's word to substantiate my argument, then yes, I am being rude, because I am implying that you are a heretic, when in fact you are not.

But if I have a basis for my refutation of it, I am being forthright, because I am correct in my assessment of it.

Of course, if I tell someone that he is an idiot because his argument is not correct, or logically sound, even if I am right that his argument is foolish, I am being rude.

But I am not being rude for telling him that his argument is unsound. Rather, I am being forthright.

Even though this guy is a total jerk. I will agree with him.
(totally kidding about the jerk thing, just wanted to try out the rude thing )


Yes, I don't know if any biblical figure was harsher than Christ when it came to speaking truthfully. He did not suger-coat it

But what response could be expected when He told the church leaders that they were all children of the devil OVER AND OVER in so many different ways...? Some would repent at such words, but the rest of them (as we know in scripture) just sought all the more to kill him. Yet he would 'pass through their midst' unharmed.

If someone is just a simple jerk, don't we usually just laugh? I mean, if some idiot comes on and says meaningless insults, who will be offended? Is it not when there are elements of truth (or reflections of ourselves) in what someone says that we do get offended? But offended, not that these things are bad, but offended because it is our nature to hate truth?

I'm never sure how many people actually get offended (hopefully it's rare), but even if someone is trying to be a jerk, why take it personally? If they are the jerk, shouldn't you pity them? But if what they say is truthful, doesn't it make sense that it should anger those parts of us which hate truth?

Anyways, cheers all.

 

[woobadooba]

Even though this guy is a total jerk. I will agree with him.
(totally kidding about the jerk thing, just wanted to try out the rude thing )


Yes, I don't know if any biblical figure was harsher than Christ when it came to speaking truthfully. He did not suger-coat it

But what response could be expected when He told the church leaders that they were all children of the devil OVER AND OVER in so many different ways...? Some would repent at such words, but the rest of them (as we know in scripture) just sought all the more to kill him. Yet he would 'pass through their midst' unharmed.

If someone is just a simple jerk, don't we usually just laugh? I mean, if some idiot comes on and says meaningless insults, who will be offended? Is it not when there are elements of truth (or reflections of ourselves) in what someone says that we do get offended? But offended, not that these things are bad, but offended because it is our nature to hate truth?

I'm never sure how many people actually get offended (hopefully it's rare), but even if someone is trying to be a jerk, why take it personally? If they are the jerk, shouldn't you pity them? But if what they say is truthful, doesn't it make sense that it should anger those parts of us which hate truth?

Anyways, cheers all.

But the interesting thing is that when Jesus spoke of the Pharisees in this way, He did it with deep sadness for their souls, not out of anger because He was offended by what they had said when they insulted Him.

There are certain people in here whom you can clearly see that they don't have any love for you at all when they address you in their rude way.

And then there are others who just don't want you to fall into the pit, and so they shout a little, not to anger you, but to wake you up.

 

[Reformationist]

Was Jesus rude when He called the Pharisees blind guides?

No, He was forthright, because that was exactly what they were.

Now then, If I tell you that your view on salvation is heretical, and I have no basis in God's word to substantiate my argument, then yes, I am being rude, because I am implying that you are a heretic, when in fact you are not.

But if I have a basis for my refutation of it, I am being forthright, because I am correct in my assessment of it.

Of course, if I tell someone that he is an idiot because his argument is not correct, or logically sound, even if I am right that his argument is foolish, I am being rude.

But I am not being rude for telling him that his argument is unsound. Rather, I am being forthright.

The problem with such an explanation is that your assessment of an adequate basis for refutation is, in my opinion, based on unbiblical principles. So, what we are faced with is you saying that you refute my position and offering erroneous interpretations as your "basis" and me contending that your refutation is faulty because your understanding of Scripture is faulty. The point being, claiming that something ceases to be rude simply because someone believes they have a basis for refutation is shaky logic. None of those quotes by you cite anything factual. They are merely ad hominem, snide, contemptuous, condescending statements that you continue to justify on the basis that they are supported by your faulty understanding of Scripture. This doesn't make you forthright. It makes you, well, something else.

 

[Reformationist]

There are certain people in here whom you can clearly see that they don't have any love for you at all when they address you in their rude way.

And then there are others who just don't want you to fall into the pit, and so they shout a little, not to anger you, but to wake you up.

Out of curiousity, which of these camps do you feel that your comments place you in?

 

[Normann]

No, I espouse what the Bible teaches, that salvation is conditional.

You see, there is a difference between conditional salvation, and salvation by works.

Salvation by works is man's attempt to merit God's favor in his own way
with the intent to secure salvation.

Conditional salvation is man obtaining salvation God's way. In this case, God's way is to believe in Jesus Christ!

Until you learn to see the difference between the two, you will not come to understand the fullness of the gospel message.

Thanks...


In order to believe in Calvinism we must ignore dozens of scriptures.

3,700 scriptures in the Bible would have to be changed or deleted if we are to follow the teaching of predestination.

God is not guilty of sending men to hell. All man have the choice to make for salvation or to reject it.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[woobadooba]

So, what we are faced with is you saying that you refute my position and offering erroneous interpretations as your "basis" and me contending that your refutation is faulty because your understanding of Scripture is faulty. The point being, claiming that something ceases to be rude simply because someone believes they have a basis for refutation is shaky logic. None of those quotes by you cite anything factual.

Here you are demonstrating your problem, that you don't pay attention to everything that is written. Thus this is why you not only take the scriptures out of context, but also the words of those who are trying to open your eyes to the truth of what they are really saying on this matter--predestination.

Go back and look at my post so that you can see that I also implied that you can be truthful and rude at the same time.

If I don't share what I know with you out of love for your soul, then what good is my witness to you, even if I speak the truth?